Deciphering the Pagan Stones

reply to post by Ramcheck


I've heard that, and weren't the Templars supposed to have helped out at Bannockburn? It's hard to know for sure. Here's a bit about the Tau:

The shape of the letter tau or T was interpreted as representing a crucifix from antiquity. The staurogram, from Greek ΣTAΥPOΣ "cross", was a tau-rho ligature used to abbreviate the Greek word for cross in very early New Testament manuscripts such as P66, P45 and P75.[2] The tau was also considered a symbol of salvation due to the identification of the tau with the sign which in Ezechiel 9:4 was marked on the forehead of the saved ones (וְהִתְוִיתָ תָּו עַל־מִצְחֹות הָאֲנָשִׁים "set a mark (tav; after the Phoenician cross-shape 𐤕) on the forehead of the men"), or due to the tau-shaped outstretched hands of Moses in Exodus 17:11.[2]

en.wikipedia.org...

I've been reading Alan Wilson's book, which is really interesting (although he puts the Picts on the west coast, so let's not even start unravelling that one) where he claims that the Welsh Triads, which have been repressed - partly because of a law which forbade the teaching and speaking of Welsh in Wales, and partly because of earlier when Geoffrey of Monmouth copied the Kings list to suit the Anglo Saxon climate -state clearly that Christianity arrived in Wales, to Ireland and over to Scotland around 3AD.
The fact that the 'pagan' stones and the much later 'Christian' stones all keep the same designs, is telling then. Rather than thinking that the Picts abandoned paganism and took to the new religion which was imposed seems wrong. They wouldn't have been 'allowed' to keep their designs. It seems more like they saw no reason to drop their own symbols which might suggest they weren't pagan in the first place. Does that make sense or am I rambling?
There is only a dichotomy of pagan via Christian if we accept that Christianity arrived in Scotland with Constantine. But if it was already here, then that changes a lot of things.

reply to post by Danbones


It does tie in eerily well with Logarok's thinking about Egyptian art and motif's on the stones, doesn't it? As far as America's -that's your bag, I'm clueless there! (Nice thread, by the way, I paid you a visit).
But yes, I think you're right, that we need to think about these eras globally as well as locally if we're ever going to find an answer. It's becoming apparent that thinking about Scotland as a stand-alone country that was only really liberated' by the Romans is not to understand Scotland at all. That's still weird for me to comprehend, but I'm getting there!

reply to post by muzzleflash


Agreed, although it's strange, it does seem to be made that way.

reply to post by beansidhe


Yeah I think it was made to look like this, most likely.
I don't see any indication it was severely damaged really, aside of expected natural causes.

Go check your U2U again too.

hi B
your gonna like this


this is really interesting

Neolithic discovery: why Orkney is the centre of ancient Britain
Long before the Egyptians began the pyramids, Neolithic man built a vast temple complex at the top of what is now Scotland. Robin McKie visits the astonishing Ness of Brodgar

This is the temple complex of the Ness of Brodgar, and its size, complexity and sophistication have left archaeologists desperately struggling to find superlatives to describe the wonders they found there. "We have discovered a Neolithic temple complex that is without parallel in western Europe

The people of the Neolithic – the new Stone Age – were the first farmers in Britain, and they arrived on Orkney about 6,000 years ago. They cultivated the land, built farmsteads and rapidly established a vibrant culture, erecting giant stone circles, chambered communal tombs – and a giant complex of buildings at the Ness of Brodgar. The religious beliefs that underpinned these vast works is unknown, however, as is the purpose of the Brodgar temples.

"We need to turn the map of Britain upside down when we consider the Neolithic and shrug off our south-centric attitudes," says Card, now Brodgar's director of excavations. "London may be the cultural hub of Britain today, but 5,000 years ago, Orkney was the centre for innovation for the British isles. Ideas spread from this place. The first grooved pottery, which is so distinctive of the era, was made here, for example, and the first henges – stone rings with ditches round them – were erected on Orkney. Then the ideas spread to the rest of the Neolithic Britain. This was the font for new thinking at the time."

It is a view shared by local historian Tom Muir, of the Orkney Museum. "The whole text book of British archaeology for this period will have to be torn up and rewritten from scratch thanks to this place," he says.

The surrounding hills are relatively low, and a great dome of sky hangs over Brodgar, perfect for watching the setting and rising of the sun, moon and other celestial objects. (Card believes the weather on Orkney may have been warmer and clearer 4,000 to 5,000 years ago.) Cosmology would have been critical to society then, he argues, helping farmers predict the seasons – a point supported by scientists such as the late Alexander Thom, who believed that the Ring of Brodgar was an observatory designed for studying the movement of the moon.

These outposts of Neolithic astronomy, although impressive, were nevertheless peripheral, says Richards. The temple complex at the Ness of Brodgar was built to be the most important construction on the island. "The stones of Stenness, the Ring of Brodgar and the other features of the landscape were really just adjuncts to that great edifice," he says. Or as another archaeologist put it: "By comparison, everything else in the area looks like a shanty town

Equally puzzling was the fate of the complex. Around 2,300BC, roughly a thousand years after construction began there, the place was abruptly abandoned. Radiocarbon dating of animal bones suggests that a huge feast ceremony was held, with more than 600 cattle slaughtered, after which the site appears to have been decommissioned. Perhaps a transfer of power took place or a new religion replaced the old one. Whatever the reason, the great temple complex – on which Orcadians had lavished almost a millennium's effort – was abandoned and forgotten for the next 4,000 years.

www.theguardian.com...

edit on Tueam3b20143America/Chicago44 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

reply to post by Danbones


I do like. Thank you!

beansidhe
reply to post by Danbones

 

It does tie in eerily well with Logarok's thinking about Egyptian art and motif's on the stones, doesn't it? As far as America's -that's your bag, I'm clueless there!
But yes, I think you're right, that we need to think about these eras globally as well as locally if we're ever going to find an answer.

But that's what we have been doing! Another thread could be opened about Neolithic influences its really another issue when compared to Pict stones.....which is what this thread is about. These stones look to represent an intrusion by an influence that has clearly shown roots.....Mediterranean Sea culture.

The use on one of the stones of the 4 winged anthropomorphic not only shows use but shows period development. Its clearly pre-Roman era.

As you pointed out earlier one observer called the stones a mysterious use of the know and the unknown. I would say there is a good reason for this and therein is the rub. A separate yet highly influenced "cult" as Flash may have it, having its origins near and around the time of the Syrian influenced upheavals in that area as D-Bones might have it points to Phoenician/Dannite conclusion in my, still and ever open to suggestions and evidence, leanings. Still many questions and time to fill in but when you have a winged disk, advanced 4 winged critters, ect you have very clear evidence of direction anyway.

DP

Triple Post wow!.

Logarock

beansidhe
reply to post by Danbones

 

It does tie in eerily well with Logarok's thinking about Egyptian art and motif's on the stones, doesn't it? As far as America's -that's your bag, I'm clueless there!
But yes, I think you're right, that we need to think about these eras globally as well as locally if we're ever going to find an answer.

But that's what we have been doing! Another thread could be opened about Neolithic influences its really another issue when compared to Pict stones.....which is what this thread is about. These stones look to represent an intrusion by an influence that has clearly shown roots.....Mediterranean Sea culture.

The use on one of the stones of the 4 winged anthropomorphic not only shows use but shows period development. Its clearly pre-Roman era.

As you pointed out earlier one observer called the stones a mysterious use of the know and the unknown. I would say there is a good reason for this and therein is the rub. A separate yet highly influenced "cult" as Flash may have it, having its origins near and around the time of the Syrian influenced upheavals in that area as D-Bones might have it points to Phoenician/Dannite conclusion in my, still and ever open to suggestions and evidence, leanings. Still many questions and time to fill in but when you have a winged disk, advanced 4 winged critters, ect you have very clear evidence of direction anyway.

edit on 11-3-2014 by Logarock because: n

reply to post by Logarock


who's to say pict carvings aren't carved on older stones or descendant from them?
to ignore the most oldest stones found so far in the vicinity of the land of the Picts...
or as these indicate, scotland predated britian further to the south ignores much about the possible roots of the pictish stones...

and is posting that on this thread so different from bringing in christianity or judaism to the thread...which are so much later, but claim ownership of the past?
( like the cross symbolism which is far older then anything abrahministic ...)

besides with the op being scotish i though it might be cool for her to have a little william wallace moment
just for fun

Danbones

Logarock

beansidhe
reply to post by Danbones

 

It does tie in eerily well with Logarok's thinking about Egyptian art and motif's on the stones, doesn't it? As far as America's -that's your bag, I'm clueless there!
But yes, I think you're right, that we need to think about these eras globally as well as locally if we're ever going to find an answer.

But that's what we have been doing! Another thread could be opened about Neolithic influences its really another issue when compared to Pict stones.....which is what this thread is about. These stones look to represent an intrusion by an influence that has clearly shown roots.....Mediterranean Sea culture.

The use on one of the stones of the 4 winged anthropomorphic not only shows use but shows period development. Its clearly pre-Roman era.

As you pointed out earlier one observer called the stones a mysterious use of the know and the unknown. I would say there is a good reason for this and therein is the rub. A separate yet highly influenced "cult" as Flash may have it, having its origins near and around the time of the Syrian influenced upheavals in that area as D-Bones might have it points to Phoenician/Dannite conclusion in my, still and ever open to suggestions and evidence, leanings. Still many questions and time to fill in but when you have a winged disk, advanced 4 winged critters, ect you have very clear evidence of direction anyway.

edit on 11-3-2014 by Logarock because: n

reply to post by Logarock

 

who's to say pict carvings aren't carved on older stones or descendant from them?
to ignore the most oldest stones found so far in the vicinity of the land of the Picts...
or as these indicate, scotland predated britian further to the south ignores much about the possible roots of the pictish stones...

and is posting that on this thread so different from bringing in christianity or judaism to the thread...which are so much later, but claim ownership of the past?
( like the cross symbolism which is far older then anything abrahministic ...)

besides with the op being scotish i though it might be cool for her to have a little william wallace moment
just for fun

edit on Tueam3b20143America/Chicago56 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

You cant show antecedence between the Pict stones and these megalithic stones. Are you really that daft?

We can however see clear antecedence between the Pict stones and the Mediterranean cultures. Trying to tie these stones in with the megalithic cultures amounts to a groping in the dark comparison. There is nothing there.

reply to post by Danbones


It's important to know our heritage, but the gap is so big - maybe 3 thousand years of guesswork in between. That's why we're sticking just to what we can see, otherwise (as you've probably noticed) my mind goes in a hundred different directions!
I'm also wondering if it hasn't confused me a bit too, thinking of pagan/christian as some sort of definite split in the timeline, when in fact whoever carved or commissioned these stones didn't necessarily see it like that at all.
The symbols should become clearer when we can tighten up what was happening at the time they were carved, and who is most likely to have carved them.
I want to start bringing it in, not drawing it out, but as you have just shown, there's a lot that could be included. We can't really include the neolithic stones, otherwise we would have to think about Mae's Howe etc and there's no way of linking them to the Picts. It's a shame, but that is the state of our historical knowledge today. Thousand year gaps is hard to take, but it's all we have right now.

I did have a quick William Wallace 'whoop' though, so thanks!

reply to post by beansidhe



I knew a guy over here named Wallace. One of those white haired Scotts. Said he was related to William, comes from the line, long before that fick had come out or I had ever heard of William Wallace. I sort of dig Owain Glendower myself. Glyndwr as they say it.

reply to post by Logarock


you can tell when a stone was carved?
thats the point of mentioning them: when were stones planted when were they carved, kilroy was here may not have been a new concept...and these stones are lined up and have some of the symbols that are on the pict stones
like the moon

but i must be daft as you said in rebutal..have a nice day log

Logarock
reply to post by beansidhe

 

I knew a guy over here named Wallace. One of those white haired Scotts. Said he was related to William, comes from the line, long before that fick had come out or I had ever heard of William Wallace. I sort of dig Owain Glendower myself. Glyndwr as they say it.

He was more enigmatic and mysterious. Wallace was in your face! I could dig Glyndwr...

I'm still scanning the other stones for Tau's/T's but does this tree look familiar to anyone? They're maybe showing winter, or is it a known design elsewhere?

Eassie stone:



As a note of interest, this is from the back of the stone with the 2nd four winged 'angels':

Look!!!



A tree, 4 winged angels - I must be dreaming! This is too much to be a coincidence!

Crowned and Winged Gods or Genii riding upon two Cherubim (winged Sphinxes) minister to the Sacred Tree (German: Lebensbaum, "Tree of Life") and winged Sun disc with the features of a god (8/7th century BCE ?). In the Hebrew Bible Yahweh-Elohim is described as winged and riding upon a Cherub ((cf. the book of Ruth 2:12 and Psalms 17:8; 36:7; 56:1 which speak of Yahweh's WINGS; and 2Sam 22:11; PS 18:10 mentioning the cherub Yahweh rides). The Cherubim were placed by Yahweh-Elohim in the Garden of Eden to deny mankind access to the sacred Tree of Life. Yahweh is also metaphorically likened to a winged sun disc by Malachi (Mal. 4:2). Yahweh' is apparently (metaphorically ?) described as possessing wings and likened to an eagle (Ex 19:4; PS 17:8, 36:7; Jer 48:40; Ruth 2:12). Cherubim are believed to be derived from Egyptian winged sphinxes of the New Kingdom period (1560-1200 BCE) and reworked by Phoenicians and Canaanites who in turned passed on the imagery to Israel. Solar imagery abounds in the bible in regards to God (He "dawns" from Seir in De 33:2, His temple faces the East and the rising sun), the Cherubim (sphinxes) originally being solar animals that at times faced the east and the rising sun, as in the Great Sphinx of Gizeh. In the above seal, the transformed Egyptian Winged Sun and its Sphinxes have been associated with the "Tree of Life." The Tree of Life (a transformed Egyptian Lotus, merged with a Datepalm), the Cherubim, the Winged Sun are all Egyptian motifs which have been reworked by Phoenicians, Canaanites, Syrians, Mesopotamians, and adopted by Israel and Judah.

www.bibleorigins.net...

reply to post by beansidhe


Hi Fiery Lady.

I don't know if you are typing a post with this in it right now or not...
So will post this anyway even though you already know gonna share with the rest.
Hope you don't get mad, you didn't tell me to wait or anything lol.

I also didn't read all 30 pages so don't know if anyone mentioned this.

Eihwaz Rune

The rune is sometimes associated with the World tree Yggdrasil, which, imagined as an ash in Norse mythology, may formerly have been a yew or an oak.

So the mysterious Z-rod symbol which looks like a retractable measurement tool, is actually really identical to this Rune.
I find this fascinating. If anyone has additional ideas please post.

This would probably make the connection easier that the "Double Circle" symbols would probably represent the basic "Yin Yang + -" concept.
Here is a link to the 2 of Coins in Tarot image list, and if you go through you will see some very uncanny similarities between the symbolism and styles employed in several cases.

Just something I think a few of you will find interesting.

A good example I think is this wiki I came across :
Norrie's Law hoard

Check the double circle, what do we have?
Something akin to Triskelion ?

So let's compare with the Eastern cultures:
Gankyil

the Gankyil is the principal symbol and teaching tool: it is symbolic of primordial energy and represents the central unity and indivisibility of all the teaching, philosophical and doctrinal triune of Dzogchen

Also the Korean Sam Saeg-ui Taegeuk is of interest.

They basically equate to concepts like the Trinity (and basic yin yang concepts can be associated if you check the wikis).
Think of something like a 'Trident Swirling to Stir the Cosmos' maybe?
There a lot of ways to think about this, it's probably best to cover as many as possible to get a good round view.

The Tree of Life

The Tree always has fruit or foliage. The fruit is usually rather large and plump and sometimes looking like a pine cone . The fruit as a pine cone was its most popular depiction even unto the Greeks and Romans.

When looking at the five images of the Tree we can see the shared elements:

1 Sumerian: Genii, Pole, Lattice, Bell shape, Fruit and not shown but above the solar winged disk
2 Babylonian/Assyrian: Genii, Pole, Lattice, Bell shape, Foliage and not shown but above the solar winged disk
3 Urartian: Genii, Pole, Bell shape and Fruit
4 Indus Valley: Bell shape, Foliage and the god in the tree
5 Labeled Sumerian but much more likely Assyrian: Genii (King), Pole, Lattice, Bell shape/god in the tree, Fruit and the god as the solar winged disk

It's on ours -the genii, shape, pole, fruit.