The Mystery Religion – Jesus (The Sun of God)

reply to post by EsotericGod


Clearly a lot of knowledge on display here. Someone has just made a days long argument about stars and Jesus yadayada and then doesn't even know that certain constellations are only visible from certain locations of the planet? Like I said, he/she is probably hitting the search hard right now to get educated about things that he/she has tried to appear educated about. I guess I should feel bad for responding to childish antics with childish antics, but I feel bad more because it feels like I'm abusing a child. I literally feel like that right now. I mean this isn't even fair. You guys could not have put on a better display that this argument is nonsensical. And I am sorry. Please continue with the secret sun knowledge of the stars and their connection with the greatest man who ever graced the planet.

reply to post by pleasethink

 

If you are in America, above Florida, try to identify the Southern Cross in any time of the year. You won't. Trust me. I'm sorry man. This is not fun anymore, I'm starting to feel bad.

Your premise seems to indicate to me that Jesus Christ was based upon western European Astronomy. Simple.

And if you really feel that bad then please feel free to leave.

reply to post by nenothtu

Then your logic is flawed, because not everyone on Earth sees the same set of zodiacal constellations. Since there are 88 constellations (in western traditions) I must assume that you are referring to only the zodiacal constellations here. The Maya divided the zodiac into 19. The Aztecs divided it into 20. Continental Druids divided it into 22. Insular Celts divided it into 13. There are many other cultures with different traditions and divisions.

Not everyone sees "12", much less the same 12.

Every culture has their own arbitrary division - and they ARE all arbitrary. Nothing inherent in the stellar landscape causes those divisions - only the minds of men.

The most prevalent is the zodiacal constellations, they are the most well known and the basis for myths originating around the Mediterranean area, which so happens to be where Christianity formed. Ask anyone how many constellations there are and the vast majority will tell you 12, because they are familiar with the zodiac.

No. If I were a Taurus I would be being stubborn. I'm a Leo, so I'm being regal.

"Abrahamic" perhaps, but not Christian, Jewish, OR Muslim. You don't have a label for what I am, and that's pretty much the way I like it.

So you believe in the Abrahamic god which is only attested to within the Torah, Bible,and Quran. No wonder you are fighting the obvious here. You have a bias toward the Abrahamic god and the myths surrounding him.

By "countless" I presume you mean "really big number, more than I can count". We can go with that, I guess. Who can really be bothered to try and count them? It might be a disappointing number, and lead to arguments as to the validity of astrology and whatnot. Can't have that. Since the folks that invented it - and they DID invent it, rather than taking it from the stars - are all dead, I guess I'll just have to take it up with the modern adherents - meaning you, I suppose.

Not just me my friend, there are many more people than myself who have come to this conclusion. The fact is MANY religions and myths have been based around the zodiac, to deny that is ignorance, but you're not exactly denying it so that's a start I suppose.

Can't see what isn't there. Your attempts to force it to be there does not actually PUT it there. Floundering about looks good on you. Get it? "Floundering"? I got a million of 'em!

BTW - does the Sun ever catch those fish? does it eat them? Not much of a "fisherman" if it never catches them...

Jeez man, denial isn't just a river in Egypt. What do fishermen make their living off of? Fish. But I guess fisherman have no connection to fish with your logic.

So "elites" would be able to see a MAN carrying a jar of water across the street, but to mere peons he would be invisible?

So the zodiac is power magic for the power elite, but us mere peons can't touch it? If we could, I'd imagine some of the superstitious peons would have preserved it just as easily.

You're going off on a completely different tangent here, you are obviously not understanding what I'm saying. Whether that's intentional or not I don't know.

The pagan officials at the time (Rome) would have been very familiar with the zodiac sign Aquarius and would insert that symbolism into whatever religion they were trying to create because it is the age "following" the one we are currently in.

The fact that religions have used the zodiac as a basis for their myths throughout history and the fact that the religion of Christianity has a story about "following" a man with a water jug in his hands, which is so obviously a reference to Aquarius, is my point. It's so obvious it's almost painful to see people such as yourself (who seem intelligent) flat out deny it over and over again. Again, denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

NOW who's being obtuse? "Pisces" is represented by FISH, not men, and not fishermen.

Yet fishermen make a living off of fish. Let's keep ignoring the obvious though, ignorance is bliss.

Who am I to disabuse you of your strange superstitions about those "power elite" and their multi-generational schemes to take over the world (BWAHAHAHAHA!)? Carry on then, and believe as you will.

What are you even doing on a site that deals mostly with conspiracies by the power elite if you don't believe in them? Do you believe in conspiracies? If not, why are you here?

reply to post by pleasethink


I guess if you can't see it that means it isn't there? You're just looking for reasons to disagree, no matter how illogical they are. Do constellstions just all of a sudden cease to exist once you move from America to China?

racasan

It says the Shawnee has 12 moons in its calendar – I have an interest in this kind of thing if you have any info about this 12/13 moon thing I would be grateful for the assistance

U2U sent regarding this, so as not to derail the thread.

reply to post by EsotericGod


I probably will, but only because I thought that this thing was about denying ignorance, but I have done just that, and now you don't want to play anymore.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


"everyone on Earth sees the same constellations as everyone else" quote direct from source.

Western zodiac


The body of astrological knowledge by the 2nd century AD is described in Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, a work that was responsible for astrology's successful spread across Europe and the Middle East, and remained a reference for almost seventeen centuries as later traditions made few substantial changes to its core teachings.

Hmmm strange... Is this not around the time Jesus was created?

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by pleasethink

 

The alignment of the stars do not change, everyone on Earth sees the same constellations as everyone else. Everyone sees the same stars at night no matter what part of the Earth you live on, that's how the rotation of the Earth works, the dark side is always facing the same set of stars on any given day. The positions of the stars relative to the Earth's revolution will change as the year goes by but the stars and constellations stay in their respective places.

I'm not that dense to think we live on a planet where stars follow you when you travel, you misunderstood me.

edit on 2/3/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

The same stars but not the same constellations. Constellations are culture-dependent. They are arbitrary groupings of stars based solely upon cultural input, not inherent in the stars themselves.

Which stars we see depends on latitude, not longitude.

Objects closer than stars will, however, be seen differently. Taking the moon as an example, that is why continuous arguments rage around the world as to the start and end of Islamic Ramadan - it starts and ends at different times in different places, based upon the first crescent of the new moon, and when it is first seen in a given longitude. Even objects as far as planets will shift due to longitude.

reply to post by EsotericGod


I feel stupider now.

pleasethink
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

 

I would take a picture if you feel better. There are actually constellations only visible from some parts of the world. This is a fact. One night I will get Orion. Next the big dipper. It is not always the same. You're a smart person, you should know this.

You are right but only the constellations visible above the Middle East are relevant to this discussion

reply to post by racasan


It's taken out of context, he/she said that all countries see the same constellations, which is not true.

reply to post by nenothtu

But they interpret those phenomena in radically different ways. You want to interpret christianity as some sort of horoscope, but seem sublimely unaware that it is only YOUR subjective interpretation, and are trying to make an objective argument on subjective interpretations.

The point is that you are taking objective and unassociated things, and "connecting dots" from them that otherwise are not connectable (besides in your mind, your subjective interpretation), and expecting everyone else to reach the same subjective conclusions.

I'm taking what was available to those at that time and in that area, which was the zodiac and the constellations it presented.

No, we're talking about "connecting dots" where connections are otherwise unavailable outside of our own minds. I illustrated that sort of connection. The field of study is irrelevant to the premise. The number "!00" runs through the entire venue I specified, and is every bit as valid a series of "connected dots" as your is, regardless of the field it is applied to.

You're taking concepts from entirely different millenias and societies and somehow connecting them. I'm taking what was available to those in one millenia and one society and connecting the dots in that way. The Romans borrowed their mythology from Greece and Greece borrowed their mythology from Babylon, and Babylon invented the zodiac. The Jewish creation myth is also just a reworking of the Babylonian creation myth, yet another connection to the zodiac. There is a clear connection to Christianity and the zodiac, there is no clear connection between the vice president and Roman centurions, so your analogy makes no sense at all.

I must defer to your expertise on Ugaritic religion, since I have none of my own. I don't think Jesus or Christians factor into Ugaritic religion, however - and that's based upon what I know about them.

I never claimed to be an expert, but a quick search told me that there is in fact a connection between Ba'al and the bull, so the connection isn't as imaginary as you seemed to believe before, so the articles point is still valid.

reply to post by nenothtu

 

The same stars but not the same constellations. Constellations are culture-dependent. They are arbitrary groupings of stars based solely upon cultural input, not inherent in the stars themselves.

Right, I'm glad you understand this.

Now try to understand this.

The babylonians were the first to use the system upon which the zodiacal system was based.

Heres a short summary:

Zodiac History

Babylonian astronomers at some stage during the early 1st millennium BC divided the ecliptic into twelve equal zones of celestial longitude to create the first known celestial coordinate system: a coordinate system that boasts some advantages over modern systems (such as the equatorial coordinate system). The Babylonian calendar as it stood in the 7th century BC assigned each month to a sign, beginning with the position of the Sun at vernal equinox, which, at the time, was depicted as the Aries constellation ("Age of Aries"), for which reason the first sign is still called "Aries" even after the vernal equinox has moved away from the Aries constellation due to the slow precession of the Earth's axis of rotation.

As you can see, the Babylonians incorporated the 12 constellations long before the arrival of Christianity.

The constellations and the zodiacal system on which the bible is based originates from Babylonia.

reply to post by pleasethink


You're right, I'm wrong, not all constellations are visible from certain parts of the world, my mistake.

Either way, like another poster pointed out, the constellations visible from the Middle East are what matter here. The 12 zodiacal constellations are all visible from the Middle East which is where Christianity formed.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


The jewish creation story was God created the world, Adam, and Eve in six days and rested on the seventh. The babylonian creation story, for anyone who would care to compare/contrast is here:
faculty.gvsu.edu...
Man you clearly need to go back to zodiac school.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


If you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

reply to post by pleasethink


It's not my fault you don't see the parallels, but just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there.

What does my age matter? I'm 24 turning 25 in April, but that shouldn't matter.

Take a look at THIS link. It comapres the Babylonian and Genesis creation stories.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Well, you are old enough to be better prepared to support what you believe. I'm sorry, I feel like I am taking advantage of you, and that maybe some sock puppetry is at hand. This has turned from an argument into something I don't feel good about anymore. You seem cool and I wish you the best. Just remember when you talk about Jesus, it is something that means the world to some people. Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean you should disparage it. But then again, maybe these ideals belong in China. Happy upcoming birthday. I will discontinue, as I feel bad because this seems unfair.

reply to post by pleasethink


What exactly have you brought to the table? Your personal opinion without any references to anything else? I have referenced other religions and their myths to state my case, you have stuck your fingers in yours ears and refused to open them. The debate is definitely unfair, but not in your favor. Your emotional arguments have nothing against facts.