The Mystery Religion – Jesus (The Sun of God)

reply to post by wildtimes


hi wildtimes
It’s a nice idea but I am more interested in the idea of an underlying Meta religion that seems to have started in Middle East and this thread is ideal for looking into that

reply to post by strongfp


That's actually the point of this thread, paganism making its way into and getting a foothold in Abrahamic religions. If they could start inserting the zodiac into the synagogues of a religion they had no part in forming, why couldn't they do the same with a religion they did help to form?

reply to post by strongfp


did you see the Josephus quote?

And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months, or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the Zodiac

twelve stones/tribes I think the Jews where familiar with the whole zodiac thing anyway a quick google-ing found these examples

in the Tosefta (Kiddushin 5:17) holds that the blessing bestowed on Abraham is the gift of astrology

in the Talmud according to which God showed to Adam all the future generations, including their scribes, scholars, and leaders (BT Avodah Zarah 5a). According to this source, the biblical Patriarch Abraham bore upon his breast an astrological tablet on which the fate of every man might be read

reply to post by racasan


I will not disagree that Abraham was a pagan to begin with. Actually I remember reading a book in a library about it while at university. There is actually quite a bit of evidence that shows the Israelite's were actually slaves in that area, and then the whole God coming down to lead his people to the chosen land, and well you know the rest of the story.
I am going to do a little side research on this one!

I also think not much is known due to the geographic and political area the archaeological evidence is in. So we might not know for sure in a long time.

Edit: Well it was easier than I thought.

" It was not so much monotheism that the exilic Jews learned from the Persians as it was universalism, the belief that one God rules universally and will save not only the Jews but all those who turn to God. This universalism does not appear explicitly until Second Isaiah, which by all scholarly accounts except some fundamentalists, was written during and after the Babylonian exile. The Babylonian captivity was a great blow to many Jews, because they were taken out of Yahweh's divine jurisdiction. Early Hebrews believed that their prayers could not be answered in a foreign land."

www.webpages.uidaho.edu...

en.wikipedia.org...
This is a link to information about Josephus writing The Antiquities of the Jews, around 1st century(time of Christ). It clearly refutes most of what was said about:
1)Jesus being a myth
2)Roman "acceptance" of Christianity
3)Any type of Zodiac connections to either

Also, just because you find something that looks like a Zodiac to you, does not mean it is a Zodiac. And further, I don't believe any educated person would have doubts of Zodiac being utilized by the Jews, as it was referenced earlier in the scripture posted by Opinionated. In fact, Zodiac had been thought of and practiced long before Jesus was present on earth. Never a man existed who did not look at the stars. I think that if you choose to believe what is being said about these "connections" then you are denying clearly available evidence to the contrary. Jesus existed. The Bible says don't do Zodiac. Jews/Christians/Muslims still (i believe) consider it sinful to do such things. I am not so sure about the Muslims. Therefore, the argument itself is nonsensical.

Why would someone plant words in the mouth of the man? Why would they then omit to remove the bad things it says about Zodiac/astrology? Why would the followers of secret star/sun god be murdered willy nilly just because? If you can't see the blatant logic farts in your theory, I don't think any logical explanation will convince you.

reply to post by pleasethink


I think it's important to note here that the bible doesn't necessarily condemn astrology itself. Observation of astrology and the movements and influences of stars by itself isn't considered sinful. Where the bible condemns it is when it is used for the purposes of divination (to predict the future or to interpret omens within the context of current events). The reason being that the bible explicitly commands Christians (and Jews) to rely on God alone for understanding in relation to future events, as He is ultimately in control. The bible often talks about watching out for signs in the heavens, and the 3 wisemen themselves used a celestial object to locate the newborn Christ. So we can see in scripture that there are uses of astrological observations that are not necessarily considered evil. It is about the intent, and application of those observations where the bible draws a stark line in the sand.

EsotericGod

The Babylonian zodiac is a form of astronomy so of course, they both matter.

No, it's astrology. Thee is a vast difference. Ask any astronomer. Astronomy either matters in this discussion, or it doesn't. I've been told it doesn't. Now you say, as the OP, that it does. Which is it? I'm not going to jump in and derail your thread if what I have to say does not matter.

nenothtu

EsotericGod

The Babylonian zodiac is a form of astronomy so of course, they both matter.

No, it's astrology. Thee is a vast difference. Ask any astronomer. Astronomy either matters in this discussion, or it doesn't. I've been told it doesn't. Now you say, as the OP, that it does. Which is it? I'm not going to jump in and derail your thread if what I have to say does not matter.

In 2000 BC astrology and astronomy, science and sorcery were indistinguishable.

reply to post by nenothtu

 

"The Babylonian zodiac is a form of astronomy so of course, they both matter."

No, it's astrology. Thee is a vast difference. Ask any astronomer. Astronomy either matters in this discussion, or it doesn't. I've been told it doesn't. Now you say, as the OP, that it does. Which is it? I'm not going to jump in and derail your thread if what I have to say does not matter.

Astrology and astronomy

"Astrology and astronomy were archaically treated together (Latin: astrologia), and were only gradually separated in Western 17th century philosophy (the "Age of Reason") with the rejection of astrology. During the later part of the medieval period, astronomy was treated as the foundation upon which astrology could operate."

"In ancient Babylonia, famed for its astrology, there were not separate roles for the astronomer as predictor of celestial phenomena, and the astrologer as their interpreter; both functions were performed by the same person."

reply to post by DeadSeraph


Well stated. As far as the context of the current discussion though, divination and the likes (Zodiac) are what is being described.

reply to post by EsotericGod


Yet even your own quote states explicitly that they are different, just as I have been maintaining, even going so far as to specify HOW and WHY they are different. Since they ARE different, and I suppose I must take this as your final word that they are, and astrology is the topic, I'll just sit and watch... and quietly write the astronomical refutation destroying the thesis point for point as the points come up. I'll not sully your thread with it, but I do look forward to your book coming out. Expect your answers then.

As a matter of fact, I've already shredded this post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 . I expect that answer will be around chapter 3 of the refutation. There are so many holes I hardly knew where to start.

Deadseraph: I think it's important to note here that the bible doesn't necessarily condemn astrology itself. Observation of astrology and the movements and influences of stars by itself isn't considered sinful. Where the bible condemns it is when it is used for the purposes of divination (to predict the future or to interpret omens within the context of current events). The reason being that the bible explicitly commands Christians (and Jews) to rely on God alone for understanding in relation to future events, as He is ultimately in control. The bible often talks about watching out for signs in the heavens, and the 3 wise men themselves used a celestial object to locate the newborn Christ. So we can see in scripture that there are uses of astrological observations that are not necessarily considered evil. It is about the intent, and application of those observations where the bible draws a stark line in the sand.

Chiram: Reference your 3 wise men in the bible – is allegory.

Astrology has both good and bad aspects about it. Its good side is that Astrology is a true art where man‘s psychology and personality can be analysed. Then we have the art of Medical Astrology showing the different correlations of disease attributed to the planets. Each part of man’s body comes under the rulership of the twelve signs of the zodiac.

And as you say Astrology wasn’t necessarily condemned. In ancient time spiritual practice was known as prayer, and was recognized as true interior prayer or contemplation (meditation), but this true interior prayer was forgotten when it became the mumbling or mental repetitions of some invocation or prayer.

Again when true interior prayer as the primary focus of spiritual life is forgotten, the simplicity of the mystic teachings becomes overlaid by the intellectual complexities of theology, occultism, astrology, numerology and the many gnostic and theosophical systems, or by the subtle attractions of psychism, clairvoyance and various forms of lower mystic practise or magic. These are subtle yet still external entanglements which divert attention from the simplicity of concentration required to follow the higher mystic path to God. It is certainly true that the complexities of Christian theology were not developed or expounded by Jesus himself.

Nenothtu: As a matter of fact, I've already shredded this post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 . I expect that answer will be around chapter 3 of the refutation. There are so many holes I hardly knew where to start.

Chiram: Yes I will second that, not a well thought out thread.

reply to post by nenothtu


Where did you shred it at? I don't recall you replying to that particular post.

I guess you've since gone back on what you said a few pages ago about me being right and you being wrong?

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Where did you shred it at? I don't recall you replying to that particular post.

I haven't replied to it here. You should rad my post more carefully. This is not the place for the reply. Astronomy is unwelcome here.

I guess you've since gone back on what you said a few pages ago about me being right and you being wrong?

Yup, I guess I have. The problem was that you kept talking after I conceded...

reply to post by nenothtu


Where is the reply then? You haven't shredded anything if you didn't reply.

As did you.

This isn't a competition though, it should be a learning experience for everyone.

3NL1GHT3N3D1: Rome was famous for cultural and religious diffusion, that is taking others ideas and reworking them to fit their own needs.

Chiram: Isn’t this what you’re doing, taking verses out of the bible and reworking it to fit your own needs as below.

3NL1GHT3N3D1: I for one think it is obvious that pagans had an influence on the story of Jesus, the pagan symbolism is all over the gospels and you pointed out some very good examples. Another thing I find interesting is the first and last things Jesus says while on his ministry in Matthew's gospel.

Matthew 4
19 “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will send you out to fish for people.” 20 At once they left their nets and followed him.

Making his disciples "fish" for people is a clear reference to the Astrological symbol Pisces which is represented by a fish.

Chiram: This is the most ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard. Where fish is referenced in the bible it’s a Metaphor. Do you know what a metaphor is? I’m not going to spend my precious time on nonsenses like this, other than to direct you to the allegory and meaning of Fish, Fishers of Men, Fishers of Souls where you can do some REAL research Here: Page-626 onwards.

reply to post by chiram

Fishers of Souls where you can do some REAL research Here: Page-626 onwards.

Sounds to me a lot like Neptune and/or Poseidon are being swapped out for Jesus. It reminds of Homer's epic poetry. At any rate, it doesn't sound like the Jesus theme is anything unique or new.

reply to post by nenothtu


Our ancestors liked to personify stuff and make up stories about that for example king winter where a whole season became a person, trees and rocks had spirits in them and the night sky got populated with gods and animals made from the patterns the stars made and again stories where made up to go along with that

Here is a site that deals with some of these stories
www.constellationsofwords.com...

so this is not about astrology, its about the relationship between astronomical events and the stories that are drawn from from those observations and if those stories end up as theology in someones book

reply to post by racasan


Well, when one discusses astronomy, the topic suddenly gets changed to astrology, and when one discusses astrology, the topic suddenly gets changed to astronomy. It's like a shooting gallery at a carnival - the little ducks keep getting moved in hopes that you can't actually hit them... except in this case the ducks not only move, they are changed to clowns, in an attempt to confuse what the target actually is.

For example, in the post I cited, 3NLIGHT3NED1 attempted to use astronomy to validate astrology, and poor astronomy at that. At one point in it, he failed to validate the stars he was claiming for a crown for Virgo. That's going to eventually turn out poorly, but probably not today.

Maybe an article on this subject for Sky and Telescope would be good idea. After all, we have Easter coming up, and all sorts of publications try to jump on the Jesus bandwagon around that time....

reply to post by chiram


I'm not reworking anything, I'm just pointing out all of the similarities between astrology, astronomy, the zodiac, and the stories within the NT. Anyone with an objective view on things will see just how clear the connections and correlations are and that they cannot just be coincidence.

Some people have been calling the connections "superficial", but that is their cognitive dissonance and denial speaking. They say the connections are "superficial" yet they fail to acknowledge their clear existence.

Also, the link you left me to the book doesn't have 626 pages, it barely has 200 if even that. Maybe you gave the wrong link?