The Mystery Religion – Jesus (The Sun of God)

reply to post by nenothtu

 

I tried to introduce the actual science of astronomy, and got slapped down, being told that doesn't matter, only the astrological pseudoscience of "the Babylonian zodiac" matters.

Which is it, then?

One cannot both include and exclude astronomy at the same time, or only in the places one sees fit to. It either matters, or it doesn't, as regards the topic.

The Babylonian zodiac is a form of astronomy so of course, they both matter.

EsotericGod....

In turn, I find it absurd that people are who are inclined towards Christianity base all their evidence upon a few scriptures without any primary sources of evidence whatsoever. Whos to say that it is not a myth?

I already told you Jesus was part of an already existing religious culture. He was just ONE of the many prophets. Think of Jesus as one chapter in a book...or one character in a movie. Unless you can prove your claims in light of the entire book or movie, your claims can be dismissed as co-incidence. IF Jesus a symbol of the sun, then did a prophet several hundred years before him prophesy the coming of the symbol of the sun? Why? If you want to use the bible as a reference, then go ALL the way...dont just stop at similarities in numbers and imagery. Explain your theory in light of the entire story... Including the Old Testament.

Well, Jesus was a real guy, not a fictitious man. He also came into 'power' around the time when Roman oppression on Jewish people was around and thus a lot of people were looking for a way out, the messiah was an underground cult, in fact, several divisions of this early form of Christianity were around, but with the constant raids and turn over of these so called 'cults' as they were known back then only a few survived. If not, non did. Until this cool Jewish guy rolled on in and finally set in stone his way of life and boom Christianity, the messiah has come.
And well, sometime after his death it just rolled on out from there until Constantine made it official. The rest is history.

The way I see it, most early civilizations and cultures seem to have a direct relationship with the seasons, the sun, and cycles of life, we are fascinated by it, all cultures around the world loved seeing the sun set, and the sun rise, and the world around them change. I think the sun has a direct impact on early Judaism and Christianity, it's just a far more complex form of explaining a simple daily occurrence. And religions always were evolving back then, they never stopped changing, revisions here, and there, to the books, new leaders pointed, rules added, new stories, the list goes on and on. It's like one big game of telephone, something along the lines will get distorted and changed so much you won't even be able to relate it back to it's original form, well a more accurate way of describing it is how evolution works, it's a perfect example.

Also, the Pyramids were all built at different times, not all at once.
And if you look at how they are setup, all their faces are square with each other, and the two largest are only slightly offset, I think it was just a coincidence they lined up like that due to engineering.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


It all comes down to personal perspective...and that is ALL 'belief' is.

There are many stories about a 'king' or 'god' being born of a virgin...and ironically, many of those have something to do with a 'star' being seen. When importance is placed on a 'star' being seen and being watched for...I dont think its a long shot to wonder if there was a group of people that possibly was looking for a predicted event to occur that would of been to do with watching for a 'star' to come out of the Virgin,Virgo, to locate a 'king' being born. There are theories that Mary had other children before Jesus too...which to be honest, none of us can say we know without a doubt that Mary was a true Virgin. Also the word used for Virgin in the New Testement can also mean 'young woman' or something along that line. When we have the importance of a 'star' that westerly leading still proceeding, guide them through the night....I think it would be very presumptuous to not look into a theory that there may have been a prophecy or prediction of the stars to look for, to know when the king was going to be born.

These groups back then had ancestors that were star gazers and I dont think its alot to assume that they likely would think the stars could sometimes tell them things...even though it was written for them not to do this. They had to watch for the new moon in the old testament just to start their months throughout the year.

There are those that take the bible literally, and those that look at it metaphorically, and those that read between the lines thinking that inbetween the writings is a truth that is not in plain site. None of them can prove without a doubt that any are wrong or right...everyone can though share their reasons as to why they believe what they believe. It comes done to perspective, belief.

I find it very interesting that there are so many stories that have similar tellings. I find it interesting that stories in the bible can also be found in other writings, with different places and names...but the story has a similar thread running through them, similar foundation. I find it interesting that in our past, people seemed to be almost obsessed with making a human become a 'god'. With the idea that a 'man' can become 'divine'. So my biggest issue with the Bible is that many of the stories and ideas...were not something 'new' but seems to be more just a 'new twist' on older stories and ideas. So then I have to look further into it all and wonder what was mans agenda when writing the books that ended up together in the end in one large book we call the Bible. I have to wonder if those that put the New Testament together had an agenda, a 'belief' of their own that they wanted to tie into the respected older stories and prophecies of a 'king' coming.

Then when we found the gnostic text, I really had to wonder then, because those to me showed there were different groups that knew of the story of the man called Jesus and the groups did seem to have different agendas.

'Light' was looked at as very mysteries long ago, the sun was a wonder. There are certain numbers throughout history that seemed to be important to people. I think it was very much a human nature in the old testament times to be very ritualistic, it helps give importance and meaning to what one believes.

I see Jesus as a man who knew that the blood sacrificing had to stop and he believed in it enough to storm the temple and fuss on them for selling animals for sacrifices. I see Jesus being a man who did great things, stood up to others despite they were going to curse him and call him 'wrong'. Since people back then were still holding on to old traditions of 'sacrifices' for sins...I dont find it a surprise that we had a group that took Jesus death and called it the 'final sacrifice'.

My personal belief, is that to believe we had to have a blood sacrifice, a man to die for us....is very bad karma for us and people will be reborn do to partaking in that belief. If your heart feels that another had to die, the blood is then on your hands too. Again, I cant prove it right nor wrong...I can show you the things that led me to that belief.

Its perspective, its belief...and I dont think this theory of a 'mystery religion' is any more out there then people taking what another man wrote over many years...as the complete absolute word of god. I think its much more possible that there is some hidden truth in between the stories.

I dont agree with all the name calling and belittling.

Those that are not Christian here that put others down, saying they were blind, saying things like they were not as enlightened or whatever...should be ashamed of their selves.

I saw more non Christians on this thread acting more enlightened then others...but then also their behavior made them look very unenlightened.

I do feel that Jesus did understand a 'hidden truth'...but he also let us know, its not really hidden at all...but its also not something that he can just show us either. We all have to seek it for ourselves. Its a personal walk and path with God...its seeking 'alone' with a humble heart. Its a truth that we can find without another person telling us about it, its a truth that can be found in life itself through quiet time with the Spirit within you. I believe this is something that many great teachers have learned...and they each taught it in a way that would make other true seekers look 'within' themselves when they were ready. I think alot of the whole 'numbers' thing was added later by groups that clinged tightly to ritual and meaning of numbers. I think alot of things were added later, like the idea that it had to be a virgin, for a man/god to be born. I think the truth was much simpler then what we read today about the story of Jesus and that there was a group that wanted this great man to be a part of their already somewhat formed 'belief' of how it all 'had' to be.

I also dont find it happenstance that the whole died and rose again after 3 days reflects what the sun does every year around the winter solstice time. I for one, think the resurrection story was something added later to the true story. I have my reasons to believe that, and its not right or wrong to others. Their perspective is just different then mine.

LV

EsotericGod.....

whether or not Christianity is based upon cosmology is the argument.

Christianity is based on the previously existing Israelite tradition NOT cosmology..... People ignorant of Jesus' Israelite religion tend to see Jesus as an isolated figure...and morph him into representing something he was not about.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

If somebody 2000 years ago really wanted to propagate astrological teachings, they could have comfortably done so without an elaborate cover up story featuring an entire generation or two of Israelites.

your statement that they could have comfortably propagated astrological teachings is quite farfetched. Education was not available for the masses but rather initiates and small groups of the elects and priesthoods. This was needed in order to keep civilizations in order.

Knowledge = Power

Your question will possibly be; how exactly did that knowledge equate to power?

Well think of the millions of followers indoctrinated by the teaching of the bible. how they appear to take everything for face value. how they are dictated upon in regards to cosmology being an "evil". The reason? For it is the foundation upon which Christianity had been created.

What better way to spread the teaching and observations of the cosmos than through a myth of the belief in something far superior than ourselves.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

IF Jesus a symbol of the sun, then did a prophet several hundred years before him prophesy the coming of the symbol of the sun?

Jesus was the symbol of the sun in the house of Pisces. The prophet knew that the arrival of Jesus would represent a new symbol for a new age. i.e. the prophet had knowledge in astronomy.

If you want to use the bible as a reference, then go ALL the way...dont just stop at similarities in numbers and imagery. Explain your theory in light of the entire story... Including the Old Testament.

I might do one day. But that will most likely be in the form of a book rather then a thread.

I don't mind arguing various points on this thread but if we were to argue the entire story then we could be here for many, many years.

EsotericGod....your statement that they could have comfortably propagated astrological teachings is quite farfetched. Education was not available for the masses but rather initiates and small groups of the elects and priesthoods.

on what basis do you say ''education was unavailable for the masses''? According to the Bible, people had access to knowledge of God's Law... Regardless of their social status. If the whole thing was about astrology and Jesus being the sun, do you mean to tell me that the Jews hate the sun?

@EsotericGod...

Jesus was the symbol of the sun in the house of Pisces.

According to your perception. According to the Bible account Jesus did not say that. He stressed on moral day-to-day living, he wasn't making cryptic references to astrology.

The prophet knew that the arrival of Jesus would represent a new symbol for a new age. i.e. the prophet had knowledge in astronomy.

so was Isaiah speaking of astronomy as opposed to real figures who would show up to transform societies?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

on what basis do you say ''education was unavailable for the masses''? According to the Bible, people had access to knowledge of God's Law... Regardless of their social status. If the whole thing was about astrology and Jesus being the sun, do you mean to tell me that the Jews hate the sun?

Well, according to the bible, "God" was a dictator who told Adam and eve that they mustnt think or reason for themselves.

"The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."" Genesis 2:17

I.e. "If you don't listen to me, you will die."

If god was all so powerful, then could he not have prevented their deaths?

Or is it metaphoric? i.e. If they ate from the tree, then they would be thinking for themselves resulting in awareness i.e. awareness of death.

and in regards to education not being available for the masses -

In what became Mesopotamia, the early logographic system of cuneiform script took many years to master. Thus only a limited number of individuals were hired as scribes to be trained in its reading and writing. Only royal offspring and sons of the rich and professionals such as scribes, physicians, and temple administrators, were schooled...

In ancient Egypt, literacy was concentrated among an educated elite of scribes. Only people from certain backgrounds were allowed to train to become scribes, in the service of temple, pharaonic, and military authorities. The hieroglyph system was always difficult to learn, but in later centuries was purposely made even more so, as this preserved the scribes' status. The rate of literacy in Pharaonic Egypt during most periods from the third to first millennium BC has been estimated at not more than one percent, or between one half of one percent and one percent.

History of Education

We have primary sources indicating that education was not available for all during this period,

but if the bible says otherwise, then it must be true.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

"Jesus was the symbol of the sun in the house of Pisces. "

According to your perception. According to the Bible account Jesus did not say that. He stressed on moral day-to-day living, he wasn't making cryptic references to astrology.

Not according to my perception, but rather according to the multiple references that can be attributed to cosmology.

so was Isaiah speaking of astronomy as opposed to real figures who would show up to transform societies?

Yes.

EsotericGod.... I might do one day. But that will most likely be in the form of a book rather then a thread.

hopefully your book can explain why the Jews hate the ''sun'', i.e Jesus.

EsotericGod

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

"Jesus was the symbol of the sun in the house of Pisces. "

According to your perception. According to the Bible account Jesus did not say that. He stressed on moral day-to-day living, he wasn't making cryptic references to astrology.

Not according to my perception, but rather according to the multiple references that can be attributed to cosmology.

so was Isaiah speaking of astronomy as opposed to real figures who would show up to transform societies?

Yes.

Then explain chapters 11,42 and 53.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Then explain chapters 11,42 and 53.

I'll take a look at some point and try my best.

hopefully your book can explain why the Jews hate the ''sun'', i.e Jesus.

Where does it say that the Jews hated Jesus? An honest question as I honestly do not know.

reply to post by OpinionatedB

In order for your theory to work, you have to steal stars from other constellations and add stars to them, you have to say a "crown" is no longer ON anything but sorta close in a roundabout way, (when clearly is it being worn ON a head in Revelations) you have to have the moon beside a "foot" rather than under it, you have to have the clothing mean you cannot see the sign (this makes it a non-sign since no one can see it and signs are clearly seen) And the list can go on with all the holes in your theory.

I am not stealing stars from other constellations, the 12 stars are not part of Leo and are literally connected to the top-most star of Virgo. It's not "sorta close in a roundabout way", there are 11 stars plus the top-most (head) star of Virgo, which equals 12 stars. They are in a circular pattern and crowns are circular and it is literally attached to the head of Virgo.

The moon is close enough to the feet of Virgo to draw out the meaning. You are nitpicking and turning a blind eye.

Like I said earlier, just because you can't see something doesn't mean it isn't there. Astrology is an offshoot of astronomy, astronomy deals with predicting where the stars will be in the future so someone predicting or "prophesying" would be able to see this formation years ahead of time.

A word of advice, when you try to make the literal into a figurative, and make the figurative into a literal, you run into many problems in your theology.

What am I taking literally that is figurative or vice versa? Revelation 12 is figurative symbolism, unless of course you think Mary stood on top of the moon and wore a crown of 12 stars and had an actual dragon (Hydra) eat her baby.

The signs of heaven (the signifier) point to a creator (the signified) Simple, yet explains fully. One need not make this into an allegorical, when you attempt to, you end up messing up your own religion by going against that religion to follow a path the religion quite clearly teaches you against taking.

What signs? You're ignoring the key word here, "signs" in heaven. Revelation 12 is allegorical, Mary did not literally stand on top of the moon or flee to the wilderness for 1,260 days after a dragon ate her baby, that it is all allegory. It seems as though you are trying to turn the allegorical into the literal, not me.

Are you denying the three wise men followed and astrological sign to find baby Jesus?

"An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” Matthew 16:4

So why did John see a sign in the sky?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

What the woman with 12 stars represents is an entirely different subject, which I'd be most interested to discuss, of course only with anybody who is into Biblical theology. This thread however is about something else.
YOU claim the woman is "virgo". I showed you why she isn't.

Ok, I apologize for the comments I made that had nothing to do with the topic, I got frustrated.

Now, can we discuss who this woman with 12 stars is and what the symbolism stands for?

By someone who is into biblical theology, do you actually mean someone who agrees with biblical theology? If so, that's not very fair or productive.

sk0rpi0n

EsotericGod.....

whether or not Christianity is based upon cosmology is the argument.

Christianity is based on the previously existing Israelite tradition NOT cosmology..... People ignorant of Jesus' Israelite religion tend to see Jesus as an isolated figure...and morph him into representing something he was not about.

edit on 5-2-2014 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

well that's a problem

Hamat Tiberias
en.wikipedia.org...
The Hammat Tiberias Synagogue is an ancient synagogue on the outskirts of Tiberias, Israel
Zodiac mosaic floor, synagogue in Hamat Tiberias


Beth Alpha
en.wikipedia.org...
Beth Alpha is a sixth-century synagogue located at the foot of the northern slopes of the Gilboa mountains near Beit She'an, Israel


There are more
en.wikipedia.org...
The mosaic floor of a synagogue was discovered at the site featuring a large zodiac design

en.wikipedia.org...
A spoke-wheel design before the central bema, has led Gutman to believed it is the remnant of a zodiac wheel

en.wikipedia.org...
here is a large Zodiac with the names of the months written in Hebrew.

Josephus War Book V - zodiac on curtain and floor on the temple mount in Jerusalem
www.ccel.org...

Josephus Book III Ch. 7
And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months, or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the Zodiac
www.ccel.org...

and there is a lot more

reply to post by racasan


Most of the those mosaics were most likely put in there after the fact. I am not denying that early Judaism didn't have influence from Babylonian religions - in fact the leading theory is that the Israelite actually STOLE the original idea of monotheism from the Babylonians - but those temples and buildings seemed to have been around or built in Roman rule, where pagans worshiped the zodiac quite closely.

reply to post by racasan


rac, those are awesome - you should make a thread with all the cross-references! In my opinion, it proves the link - and that the Babylonians were indeed a major 'source' for the Abrahamic stuff.

The Church of the Nativity
located in Bethlehem, Palestinian territories. The church was originally commissioned in 327 AD by Constantine and his mother Helena over the site that is still traditionally considered to be located over the cave that marks the birthplace of Jesus of Nazareth.

X marks the spot where Jesus was said to have been born (is it me or does that look like the sun)


The cave or grotto is thought to have been original dedicated to Adonis-Tammuz

Semiramis and tammuz


Hey wait I have seen this theme before
Isis horus


And again


things that make you go hmmm