Dr. Jacques Vallee ~ The Control System

Wait, wait... GUT has a high, squeaky, adolescent-croaking voice??!!

I had a sonorous baritone in mind, with infra-sound that hits ya in the lower spine... with the stereotypical mid-20th century version of an Asian accent, of course.

Well, this changes things... heh. Kinda like finding out Patton's voice could break glass... (it could, btw)

Your intellect is showing again. Not that it's impressive. Just that it's showing. A lil' whiney adolescent school yard jealousy maybe, BD?

reply to post by The GUT


Flatter yourself all you want, sir GUT... you deserve it.

So yuppers, of COURSE I wanna grow up to be just like you! (Though MY testis dropped years ago, heh... only trouble is they have decided to explore my knee region...)

I do wanna apologize to Klassified and CirqueDeTruth. I KNOW y'all have some interesting aspects to discuss and I should have shut up and let the discussion go that way. But my obsession with the human "manipulators of belief systems" always puts red in my eyes.

Was it the second-hand book I bought at the flea market when I was 10? It was a "Strange Tales" type of book with various stories that we might classify as Forteana.

Some of the stories fascinated me. The author(s) were sourcing newspapers and other books, so I went to the library and started digging into a few and realized they were urban legends and hoaxes that had been presented as "true." Newspapers or "journalists" that didn't exist and the referenced books were often from the same publisher. Ticked little gut off. I felt used.

Or maybe it was that remote-controlled lunar lander I saw on TV when I was 6. The commercial showed a kid flying it from a half-block away with a remote. I did odd jobs and saved for it. Finally the day arrived. Coming home from the store, mom and pop in the front seat, me in the back. I couldn't wait and opened it.

The lunar lander looked as awesome as it had on TV, but…the "remote control" was just a plastic replica with two canted holes for the two short kite sticks that attached it to the lunar lander. You could "fly" it at the end of those ugly flimsy sticks. Half-a-block my butt.

I knew something about some folk right then. Never having heard of Madison Ave or social engineering or psyops, I had no name for what I had experienced, but I forever knew it when I saw it.

There are folk much worse than those pulp rag BS'ers and them Madison Ave creepy-crawlies, and they are mucking with not only ufology but the societal mind as well. Lil' Gut don't forget.

reply to post by The GUT


You think the "Moon lander" was bad, ever cough up dough for the X-Ray Specs or Sea Monkeys?

You woulda bought Uzi's and rounded up some postal workers, if so.

The band X-Ray Specs wasn't too bad, if memory serves, though.

Back to our "monkey in a zoo" or "rat in a maze" discussion... sorry... but your voice was a nice diversion... and I've been slamming my head against JV's control system's wall for decades with hardly a crack showing anywhere but my skull.

Baddogma
You think the "Moon lander" was bad, ever cough up dough for the X-Ray Specs or Sea Monkeys?...The band X-Ray Specs wasn't too bad, if memory serves, though.

I truly think it was the lunar lander that kept me from ordering those very things. I was tempted though. Looks like I missed out on the X-Ray Specs danngit. I still wonder about--and pine for--the one-man submarine, though...

Reminds me; I was buying stocking stuffers for the nieces and nephews at the dollar tree this season and I added one extra "see-behind" sunglasses for myself. Pretty swooft, heheh.

You woulda bought Uzi's and rounded up some postal workers, if so.

When I was 13 we had a substitute math teacher whose main job was the post office. He was a really nice man and we all liked him. He and his postmaster were probably the first--or one of the very first--to be killed by a disgruntled worker in a postal shooting. It still saddens me to think of that gentle man gunned down in what has become a pop-culture joke. It is kind o' fun to pop bubble wrap at the post office though.

reply to post by The GUT


Sorry about the pop culture callousness... truly, I have watched 17 close friends and relatives die in the last 6 years and I think I'm numb, or at least sorrow-tone-deaf. So I have to 'laugh or lose it.' I suspect you might agree, or will... given some more years on Earth. I, of course, don't want the company in misery... in this manner, anyway.

I remember that "going postal" incident... sad then, sad now.

Either way, I love post-people (in both senses).

Edit: and that 17 is NOT a misprint or hyperbole: I lost a brother, a mother, a doggie, ALL my aunts and uncles, slew of cousins, two childhood best friends, a handful of adult friends and my other bro almost went from a bum pancreas and my long time squeeze walked out because I was comatose on a couch for ...oh, two years? And that was just 2008-9... so not trying to win a pity party, heh, but I feel ya, GUT.

reply to post by The GUT

There are folk much worse than those pulp rag BS'ers and them Madison Ave creepy-crawlies, and they are mucking with not only ufology but the societal mind as well. Lil' Gut don't forget.

This goes to much of my own general malaise in regards to the perceptions i maintain of the power structures in our society.

When taken in consideration with my prior post regarding the 6 layer model, it shows evidence of government type manipulation by the control systems emplaced by our "leaders."

Media and advertising are both facets of the same structure meant to deal with Layer III, in that the both pertain to the psychological and sociological areas of pressures applied within our civilization.

Now, thinking about how other means of manipulation within that 6 layer model are implemented, we can look more closely at what is being done and to whom.

Is there evidence of government involvement in projects that would fall under any or all of the other 5 layers of that model?

I think your threads are evidence of that in absolute certainty.

The next question, once it's been ascertained that one layer is being manipulated, you want to ask is, "are there any other layers involved?"

By doing this you can see how important the situation is to those who control the human control systems.

I did get the sea monkeys and ended up learning a good amount about brine shrimp (which I have since forgotten), because of my curious nature.

I didn't get my sea monkeys until way late in adult hood, and only then because that's what I fed my other comic book dream; seahorses!

I enjoyed and appreciated them both much more than I would have as a child.

Gut, I hope they have you back on the air again...I feel like so much wasn't covered, or even touched on. Just when it really started getting hot, time was up.

Any chance of that happening?

Apparently, I'm not able to reply in the Research Forum, so I'd just like to point out an OUTSTANDING thread by jadedANDcynical & SonoftheSun that will interest many here:

Is there a connection between the Expanding Earth & Electric Universe theories?

Wowzer what a cool thread. Lots of food for thought well-presented and argued. So much so, I need to comment and since I can't there, I can here:

Okay, here's what I'm thinking so far as I'm taking time to follow the links and such: This is one of the most kickbutt threads EVER on ATS. AND: I have the sneaking suspicion that these ideas aren't poo-pooed everywhere. I bet some of our military-intelligence scientists just wanna keep this stuff under wraps for their oft-perceieved and mis-used "national security" purposes.

We exist in an electric universe, on an electric earth, in an electrically modulated system we call the human body in which we conjure electrically-charged thoughts.

It seems as if electromagnetism/plasma may relate to all of our greatest profound physical, philosophical, and even metaphysical questions and mysteries. Not to mention, specifically, ahem, gravity. And, heck yeah, the earth does appear to be expanding. Seems so simple, yet so much kicking and screaming from the stunted and stale majority of flaccid academia.

Y'all have done a GREAT job with a complex topic and I'm learning much. Thank you for real.

Check it out, y'all!: Is there a connection between the Expanding Earth & Electric Universe theories?

I'm gonna repost jadedandcynical's earler post from this thread followed by the comments he made in Electromagnetism, Ufos, and the Weaponization of Alien Technology because I just realized how well he nailed not only what NIDS was up to, but also the larger implications of how groundbreaking--in proper non-sociopathic hands--these kinds of studies can take us.

As follows:

jadedANDcynical
Interesting turn here in the past page or two in bringing in the creator. I am also interested in the topic of how many layers the control system has or how many areas it influences our existence. In the Electromagnetism, UFOs, and the Weaponization of Alien Technology thread, I linked a paper discussing the phenomena and how it affects us as a society and the conclusion it reached was that there are 6 layers in action with these incidences:

The 6 Levels of UAP Analysis

Let us consider the characteristics of the sightings that are not explained by trivial natural causes. We can recognize 6 major “layers” in terms of our perceptions of these characteristics, as they can be extracted from earlier works about UAP phenomenology (Vallee, 1975a, 1975b) or from the current NIDS database.

Layer I: First of all is the physical layer, evident in most witness accounts describing an object that:

▪ occupies a position in space, consistent with geometry
▪ moves as time passes
▪ interacts with the environment through thermal effects
▪ exhibits light absorption and emission from which power output estimates can be derived
▪ produces turbulence
▪ when landed, leaves indentations and burns from which mass and energy figures can be derived
▪ gives rise to photographic images
▪ leaves material residue consistent with Earth chemistry
▪ gives rise to electric, magnetic and gravitational disturbances

Thus UAP -- in a basic physical sense -- are consistent with a technology centered on a craft that appears to be using a revolutionary propulsion system. It is the existence of this layer that has led mainstream ufologists to claim that UFOs and elated phenomena were due to extraterrestrial machines.

Layer II: For lack of an adequate term, we will call the second layer anti-physical. The variables are the same as those in the previous category, but they form patterns that conflict with those predicted by modern physics. Objects are described as physical and material but they are also described as:

▪ sinking into the ground
▪ shrinking in size, growing larger, or changing shape on the spot
▪ becoming fuzzy and transparent on the spot dividing into 2-or-more objects, several of them merging into one object at slow speed
▪ disappearing at one point and appearing elsewhere instantaneously
▪ remaining observable visually while not detected by radar
▪ producing missing time or time dilatation
▪ producing topological inversion or space dilatation (object was estimated to be of small exterior size/volume, but witness(s) saw a huge interior many times the exterior size)
▪ appearing as balls of colored, intensely bright light under intelligent control

It is the presence of such descriptions that leads most academic scientists to reject the phenomenon as the product of hallucinations or hoaxes.

Layer III: The third layer has to do with the psychology of the witnesses and the social conditions that surround them. Human observers tend to see UAP while in their normal environment and in normal social groupings. They perceive the objects as non-conventional, but they try to explain them away as common occurrences until faced with the inescapable conclusion that the object is truly unknown.

Layer IV: Physiological reactions are another significant level of information. The phenomenon is reported to cause effects perceived by humans as:

▪ sounds (beeping, buzzing, humming, sharp/piercing whistling, swooshing/air rushing, loud/deafening roaring, sound of a storm, etc.)
▪ vibrations
▪ burns
▪ partial paralysis (inability to move muscles)
▪ extreme heat or cold sensation
▪ odors (powerful, sweet or strange fragrance, rotten eggs, sulphurous, pungent, musky, etc.)
▪ metallic taste
▪ pricklings
▪ temporary blindness when directly exposed to the objects’ light
▪ nausea
▪ bloody nose and/or ears; severe headache
▪ difficulty in breathing
▪ loss of volition
▪ severe drowsiness in the days following a close encounter

Layer V: The fifth category of effects can only be labeled psychic because it involves a class of phenomena commonly found in the literature of parapsychology, such as:

▪ impressions of communication without a direct sensory channel
▪ poltergeist phenomena: motions and sounds without a specific cause, outside the observed presence of a UAP
▪ levitation of the witness or of objects and animals in the vicinity
▪ maneuvers of a UAP appearing to anticipate the witness’ thoughts
▪ premonitory dreams or visions
▪ personality changes promoting unusual abilities in the witness
▪ healing

Layer VI: The sixth and last category could be called cultural. It is concerned with society’s reactions to the reports, the way in which secondary effects (hoaxes, fiction, and science-fiction imagery, scientific theories, cover-up or exposure, media censorship or publicity, sensationalism, etc.) become generated, and the attitude of members of a given culture towards the concepts that UAP observations appear to challenge.

In the United States, the greatest impact of the phenomenon has been on general acceptance of the idea of life in space and a more limited -- but potentially very significant -- change in the popular concept of non-human intelligence. In earlier cultures such as medieval Europe or Portugal in the early years of the 20th Century, the cultural context of anomalous observations was strongly colored by religious beliefs.

Incommensurability, Orthodoxy, and the Physics of High Strangeness:
A 6-layer Model for Anomalous Phenomena
Jacques F. Vallee and Eric W. Davis
National Institute for Discovery Science
Las Vegas, Nevada


I didn't even notice when I originally linked it that Vallee was one of the authors.

Regards to the mentioning of the creator, that actually relates back to the other threads I referenced in my prior post to this thread.

And how that relates is this:

consciousness.

That is the universal constant and unifying theory which science has been seeking for. Consciousness ties the entirety of existence together and is the cohesive force that provides the order and structure which is apparent when observing anything from the physical to the spiritual that I mention in this post in Slayer's excellent thread titled, Milky Way galaxy may have formed inside-out.

The various threads dealing with quantum consciousness present some very compelling evidence that consciousness is an inherent physical property of the fabric we find ourselves embedded within. An individual mind is evidence of quantum coherence within a larger consciousness field and that cam account for the various psychic phenomena people are able to demonstrate.

Science and mysticism are finding a lot more similarities than differences; telling us that what the mystics of various traditions have been saying for eons, is true.

This just needs to be read again. I think you've shed light not only our NIDS connected Birds and their experiments at Skinwalker, etc, but probably some of the most cutting-edge ultra-secret science being conducted anywhere by crafty minds. If not, then we'll be waiting a long time for any true advancement outside of our cosmically limited knowledge.

jadedANDcynical
Ran across this some time back and had forgotten about it until this thread popped back up in my subscribed list:

The main argument presented in this paper is that continuing study of Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (“UAP”) -- including “apparitions” of a religious or spiritual nature -- may offer an existence theorem for new models of physical reality. The current SETI paradigm and its “assumption of mediocrity” place restrictions on forms of non-human intelligence that may be researched in our environment. A similar bias exists in the ufologists’ often-stated hypothesis that UAP -- if real -- must represent space visitors.

Observing that both models are biased byanthropomorphism, the authors attempt to clarify the issues surrounding “high strangeness” observations by distinguishing 6 layers of information that can be derived from anomalous events, namely: (1) physical manifestations, (2) anti-physical effects, (3) psychological factors, (4) physiological factors, (5) psychic effects, and (6) cultural effects.

Incommensurability, Orthodoxy, and the Physics of High Strangeness: A 6-layer Model for Anomalous Phenomena

This paper goes in to some detail about the study of "high strangeness" and it's implications for our world view. It does a really good job of breaking down each of the 6 layers mentioned and goes on to explain how each of those layers represent a set of values that are affected by the incidences or occurrences. It also states fairly concisely one of the main problems we face to dealing with these happenings in this statement:

This situation (the scientific study of "High Strangeness" being at an impasse) has as much to do with the incomplete state of our models of physical reality as it does with the complexity of the data.

(italicized portion added by me for clarification)

"The incomplete models of physical reality" we have are some of the most limiting factors when faced with nontraditional understanding of events which defy what we have come to call reality. We need to push beyond what most think of as facts and understand that our limited knowledge is still infinitesimally small when compared to the actual evidence before our eyes when we gaze at the cosmos.

I know that everyone here recognizes and understands this as fact, but mainstream thought is so bogged down with blinders that the mental inertia is extremely difficult to counter.

This includes academia.

Now, as has been shown in this thread, there is a lot being studied and developed which would come under the full meaning of the term "high strangeness" and I think this paper fits well within the current discussion.

As it attempts to reconcile theory with observed properties of elementary particles and with discoveries at the frontiers of cosmology, modern physics suggests that mankind has not yet discovered all of the Universe’s facets. We must propose new theories and experiments in order to explore these undiscovered facets. This is why continuing study of reported anomalous events is important: It may provide us with an existence theorem for new models of physical reality.

The study of these events themselves can show us in which direction to take our R&D and may lead to further developments just from trying to figure out exactly how these things happen.

There is quite a bit about how divergent views of similar material (SETI vs UFOlogy, in particular) leads to a stagnation in the advancement of researching these pehnomena and it concludes the following:

In other words, we need to develop a multidisciplinary methodology that encompasses all 6 of the layers we have identified and can be applied to SETI as well as to UFO phenomena and close encounters with the entities associated with them.

Such a methodology would open the way to the rational testing of hypotheses in an important domain that has been sorely neglected by mainstream science for too long.

Advancing our studies of these events and what we learn from them by advancing how the events are studied. Evolution and adaptation with the field of research.

reply to post by The GUT


Wow!

Thanks for the kind words...

I am very humbled and feel a bit embarrassed by such praise.

The research forum has a few rules, one of which being you have to apply for, and have been granted 'scholar' status.

Posts have to have a bit more structure and purpose than the average thread and have to meet other criteria. The point of al of this being the have much highs quality content than a typical thread on a news item, for example.

Guidelines here

All that aside. You're hitting all the points I'm implying and it seems we see eye to eye in many areas. I've learned a lot from your posts and I'm well pleased to learn that I've managed to add at least a little to your obviously massive knowledge base.

Darn, they won't quote in their entirety. Here's the relevant pages:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...&mem=

The GUT
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

Ya' know, I flip-flop quite a bit on what we might be dealing with or looking at.

Sometimes I'm fairly convinced that we are dealing with mysteries of our own consciousness and ours alone.

Most times, these days, I'm fairly certain that there is another non-human consciousness that sometimes winks into our business before blinking out and stepping back, yet again, behind the veil.

Personally, I don't really see why the two must be mutually exclusive, which is why I am particularly interested in the Pons region of the brain and am considering it's potential as an interface, which is why I particularly liked the part of the RAW/Vallee interview that I quoted. I could relate.

Much of what is presented on these boards is largely derivative, and as such has a familiar air to it, allowing those who want to be led to be easily drawn in, while repulsing others. Applying that micro perspective onto the macro gives us a nice little petri dish to work on, to see what exactly it is that draws the crowds, what answers people are looking for, what answers they are rejecting and it works by appealing to the lowest common denominator.

Anyone who has played with memes or the seeding of ideas, watched how they sprout and grow knows that some things work better than others, and, that much depends upon intent. The control system, in that sense, and as Vallee proposes it, is self-perpetuating. That is why change can only happen from the bottom up. One of the primary programmes, that we have been conditioned to accept, is the external enemy, often combined with the external saviour. Hence the current stasis which immobilises us, we cannot move forward because we do not know how to move beyond that primary programming. And, I believe, that this is the fundamental area that is being manipulated, perpetuating that state of confusion that has us running around in circles, and that possibly ties in with what you, and others, have posted about government engineered abduction experiences. But when one cuts through the crap, there is something else, something that points in another direction, something all together more organic but which is largely obscured in one way or another.

The brain, essentially, mine anyway I wouldn't like to speak for everyone, is a time/light device, amongst it's many other wonderful capabilities and functions. In this way it is not only our interface with the commonly percieved reality, but also our doorway to other realities, the past and the future amongst them. Over and over again we have evidence of our ability to foresee the future predicted by others made manifest, because if we can imagine it, we can realise it. Additionally, we have stores of information from the past, from our earliest ancestors, and perhaps even,why not, from our molecular building blocks, parts of us have travelled the whole universe, once belonged to stars and other planets, why should we not have some essence of that that through our brilliant brains can communicate with us in ways that we don't understand (yet). So many possibilities should we find the means by which to unleash them through our imaginations. Personally I seldom waste all that power on looking on the gloomy side of things, why would I, I have a son, I wish and imagine for him a wonderful world to grow up and old in.

Now of course, there are those who wish for other things and have the power and means by which to manipulate events and global imaginations to work in their favour. The world is in terrible shape, that is the message I get loud and clear, repeatedly. The human suffering alone is deafening. Something like 20,000 children die every day. Continuing on the path that we are travelling, that will only get worse. Water is increasingly finite, land is increasingly unproductive and the prediction for both those essentially resources over the next 50 years or so are grim to say the least. 34 square kilometers of land becomes desert every single day. If anyone out there had the power to save us, I think they would have done so by now. If anyone with power here on Terra Firma wanted that procession to stop, they would have done so by now. What we have instead is deflection and sleight of hand aimed at averting our attention from the devastation around us, that same deflection keeps us sitting on our hands waiting for a saviour to come and sort things out for us, while we consume ever more and produce increasing amounts of waste to contaminate what little we have left. We stuff ourselves with things and fodder to fill the void within ourselves.

Long story short, while I am all for a little escapism and travel the space time continuum on epic adventures, I am always sure that my eye is on the ball looking for the hook, so to speak. We can rub ourselves into a frenzy over who is controlling us in this way or that, or we can get to know ourselves and break free. Know where your buttons are and they can't be pushed. Your threads are good at highlighting that but you kind of need to take the jump yourself Sweetie

reply to post by The GUT

I do wanna apologize to Klassified and CirqueDeTruth. I KNOW y'all have some interesting aspects to discuss and I should have shut up and let the discussion go that way. But my obsession with the human "manipulators of belief systems" always puts red in my eyes.

No apologies needed! You did exactly what we invited you on to do. You shared with us your thoughts on the matter. And you did it with finesse! You did not talk too much at all. We appreciated your willingness to put yourself out there. I personally know how intimidating being on air can be. I still get stage fright to this day, and lose my train of thought sometimes.

As to my own comments on the show. I was trying to give a more grounded and terrestrial example of the control system(social engineering), that could be seen as a reflection of another control system. This is actually a subject that is near and dear to me, so to speak, though I don't post a lot in these threads. Sometime, my friend, I have a story to tell you...

KilgoreTrout
Now of course, there are those who wish for other things and have the power and means by which to manipulate events and global imaginations to work in their favour. The world is in terrible shape, that is the message I get loud and clear, repeatedly. The human suffering alone is deafening. Something like 20,000 children die every day. Continuing on the path that we are travelling, that will only get worse. Water is increasingly finite, land is increasingly unproductive and the prediction for both those essentially resources over the next 50 years or so are grim to say the least. 34 square kilometers of land becomes desert every single day. If anyone out there had the power to save us, I think they would have done so by now. If anyone with power here on Terra Firma wanted that procession to stop, they would have done so by now. What we have instead is deflection and sleight of hand aimed at averting our attention from the devastation around us, that same deflection keeps us sitting on our hands waiting for a saviour to come and sort things out for us, while we consume ever more and produce increasing amounts of waste to contaminate what little we have left. We stuff ourselves with things and fodder to fill the void within ourselves.

Long story short, while I am all for a little escapism and travel the space time continuum on epic adventures, I am always sure that my eye is on the ball looking for the hook, so to speak. We can rub ourselves into a frenzy over who is controlling us in this way or that, or we can get to know ourselves and break free. Know where your buttons are and they can't be pushed. Your threads are good at highlighting that but you kind of need to take the jump yourself Sweetie

Brilliant, as usual, but I'm gonna need a 12-Step Plan. I'm NOT being facetious. A lil' goofy mebbe...

I'm not afraid to let my light shine in real life. Each year, I demand upon myself to do it a bit better. But I'm also afraid that the grim outlook you paint will take more than pollyanna-intent at this point. My intent is that it turns out well.

But, I also hope to shine my light into the darker crevices of human "intent" of another sort. I think that has some value, too...especially if it's new to some...like the way a teeny-tiny match can push back so much darkness in a room.

If we ever do manage to set it "right" we need to know the areas it goes wrong and be able to recognize those that manipulate and that from which their appetite stems. Maybe I kid myself, but I'm certainly serious about it. Much respect, KT, yer brainz is huge as is yer heart. (---O---)

KellyPrettyBear
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

EZ Peasey to you perhaps, but it's not compelling.
I also love to discuss ancient atronomical observations
including the precession of the equinoxes.. the meaning
of pole stars and how that relates to mythology and the
formation of religion.

But I don't find all that talk 'conclusive' just highly possible.

Perhaps not conclusive to you, but even so, I was surprised that a Shaman would be unaware of the symbology, however phrased. Such pictures are language, stories that can be read when one places themselves in the shoes of the artist. The artist of that particular picture was the Shaman, it tells you as much.

One of my favourite quotes, by J Bronowski, from the opening paragraph of his seminal work, The Ascent of Man...

"Man is a singular creature. He has a set of gifts which make him unique among the animals: so that, unlike them, he is not a figure in the landscape - he is a shaper of the landscape. In body and in mind he is the explorer of nature, the ubiquitous animal, who did not find but has made his home in every continent."

The Shaman's role is to translate reality to his/her people, and to solve, or more likely, to anticipate and prepare them for, problems. If they are unable to do that, they get the chop, literally, and are replaced. Fundamental to their being able to do that work they must know the cycles, as well as intercede at the boundaries on behalf of their people by using whatever magic they have in their arsenal. This role though is largely secondary to their most important functions, choosing the place to settle, rain starting, flood stopping, and establishing the day on which to plant the crops, for this they must know the cycles and why they have to undergo such extensive preparations prior to initiation. But you know this, your being a Shaman and all, I am teaching my grandmother to suck eggs no doubt.

The centre of the cycle is the people and their Shaman, that is the fixed point in time and space around which all revolves. When it is time to move, the Shaman goes out and finds the new spot, and 'god' help him if he gets that wrong...chop again. You can understand why few choose to be a Shaman, it is a dicey old business, but resistence is futile, or so I've heard. Now I don't know how urban Shamanism works, I presume it has some differences, but in healing alone, the cycles are still paramount, though most of the day to day monitoring is deferred I presume, which is perhaps why you don't comprehend the relevence of the symbolism instinctively, but if you like the myths and stories you should have at least some awareness of the principles and their importance. Heracles and Omphale, Circe, the Arthurian legends, George and the Dragon (and on and on) all refer to the cycles. Mystery plays run in cycles, as do the stories within stories, such as 1001 Arabian Nights. The cycle within cycle within cycle is the very basis of storytelling from whence it all began, and those derive from the observation of our natural environment and our place within it, beginning with the Shaman as controller of communicating that reality.

For example, the concept of Middle Earth, familiar to most from the LOTR trilogy, that's your centre point in the circle. The Susian's called their land the 'centre of all mankind', the Iranian's referred to their land as 'better than all other places, for it is in the middle'. China was the 'Middle Kingdom', as was Japan to the Japanese. The name Mediterranean, which the Romans referred to as 'mare nostrum', literally translated means 'middle-of-the-earth'. And of course, the Greeks called Delphi the navel of the world, Omphalos. Later, in the passion of Jesus, it was said that a spear planted on the site of his tomb would at midday cast no shadow because it marked the centre of all things under the sun.

The GUT
But, I also hope to shine my light into the darker crevices of human "intent" of another sort. I think that has some value, too...especially if it's new to some...like the way a teeny-tiny match can push back so much darkness in a room.

It's time I was heading for bed...but you do, your threads, and your approach are a gift to this particular area of discussion. I'm all for airing the laundry whether dirty or just a little stale and mildewy from being kept in the cold, dark, damp for too long. You blow in some fresh air.

Take care.