Dr. Jacques Vallee ~ The Control System

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: Tangerine

I totally agree. In fact I posted WHAT VALLEE REALLY MEANS very early in this thread.
But people wanted to veer in all kinds of directions on this OP. No problem let the people do what pleases them…but if you want the truth go here and read my post

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Oh one more thing. The secret of the alien phenomena is in the post of mine you responded to. But only the wise can decipher it

I liken what Vallee is talking about to someone carrying an empty box. When asked what is in the box, they quickly put it behind their back and say, "Oh, nothing. Nothing is in the box. Really, nothing."

a reply to: 1ofthe9

I listened to the Upton thing. Initially it was interesting (his comments about John Mack and the trend toward dehumanization, for example) but then it became a rant about the advantages of preserving traditional religion. He has apparently established non-negotiable beliefs about the nature of reality and presents them as fact. As such, he's just another preacher pitching his own favorite control system.

a reply to: Tangerine

I like that analogy

Btw I don’t really have an answer to the UFO mystery only a theory amongst many.

I Think Vallee is in the similar boat as John Keel…comparing it to metaphysical phenomenon and not buying the et theory. These guys are into Ultraterrestrail---spirits

Though Keel’s was negative… he thinks the alien thing is a Trojan horse of some sort

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: Tangerine

I like that analogy

Btw I don’t really have an answer to the UFO mystery only a theory amongst many.

I Think Vallee is in the similar boat as John Keel…comparing it to metaphysical phenomenon and not buying the et theory. These guys are into Ultraterrestrail---spirits

Though Keel’s was negative… he thinks the alien thing is a Trojan horse of some sort

I'm inclined to agree that the alien thing is a Trojan horse. It seems to me that Vallee believes there is an ultraterrestrial component plus manipulation of the phenomena (or perception of the phenomena) by some human elements. For what it's worth, someone who knew Keel told me that Keel believed Yeti was a demon. We were discussing Mothman and the implication, although Keel never stated it to this person, was that Mothman was also a demon. That fits in with some of the things that Upton said. Of course, that leaves it up to interpretation how Keel defined demon. I'm not at all sure he would have defined the word as Upton does.

It seems to me that the government (or factions within the government) very much want us to believe in the ET hypothesis. This is contrary to the popular belief that the government knows a lot about UFOs/ETs and wants to keep it from us. Belief in ETs is the Trojan horse (or one of many Trojan horses) through which these factions deliver whatever message they intend for us to accept.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: Tangerine

I like that analogy

Btw I don’t really have an answer to the UFO mystery only a theory amongst many.

I Think Vallee is in the similar boat as John Keel…comparing it to metaphysical phenomenon and not buying the et theory. These guys are into Ultraterrestrail---spirits

Though Keel’s was negative… he thinks the alien thing is a Trojan horse of some sort

I'm inclined to agree that the alien thing is a Trojan horse. It seems to me that Vallee believes there is an ultraterrestrial component plus manipulation of the phenomena (or perception of the phenomena) by some human elements. For what it's worth, someone who knew Keel told me that Keel believed Yeti was a demon. We were discussing Mothman and the implication, although Keel never stated it to this person, was that Mothman was also a demon. That fits in with some of the things that Upton said. Of course, that leaves it up to interpretation how Keel defined demon. I'm not at all sure he would have defined the word as Upton does.

It seems to me that the government (or factions within the government) very much want us to believe in the ET hypothesis. This is contrary to the popular belief that the government knows a lot about UFOs/ETs and wants to keep it from us. Belief in ETs is the Trojan horse (or one of many Trojan horses) through which these factions deliver whatever message they intend for us to accept.

I don't know about this. Anything that you hear or read about aliens is coming from a human mindset for which there is no evidence. So anyone is qualified to speak their piece. Anyone can call anything whatever they want and the more outrageous the more it'll be eaten up by those predisposed to accept far out topics as having some kind of reality. The Yeti (Bigfoot, etc.) has to be a legend because footprints and fuzzy photos and videos do not show anything you can take to the bank. The TV series "Finding Bigfoot" has never shown the team having any success. Same for the "Mountain Monsters" and all such similar TV shows. No evidence, period.

There is no doubt that Vallee is a heavy thinker and he comes up with exotic explanations but he doesn't have any evidence for anything he postulates. No one knows anything about alleged aliens and to pigeonhole them is downright ridiculous especially as extraterrestrials. No evidence.

And I do not, for one moment, think that the U.S. government is engaged in anything other than spying on us and engaging in worldwide wars. There is no federal agency that is hell bent on trying to "...very much want us to believe in the ET hypothesis." No one in D.C. gives a darn about aliens and probably even UFOs because they know that nothing material has been forthcoming for them to get their hands on. I don't accept anything that comes out of the White House, Congress and Senate, they're all a bunch of rich fools that don't give a darn about you or me.

UFOs and alleged aliens are a civilian thing as you can see by the activity generated strictly by civilians.

originally posted by: Uggielicious

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: Tangerine

I like that analogy

Btw I don’t really have an answer to the UFO mystery only a theory amongst many.

I Think Vallee is in the similar boat as John Keel…comparing it to metaphysical phenomenon and not buying the et theory. These guys are into Ultraterrestrail---spirits

Though Keel’s was negative… he thinks the alien thing is a Trojan horse of some sort

I'm inclined to agree that the alien thing is a Trojan horse. It seems to me that Vallee believes there is an ultraterrestrial component plus manipulation of the phenomena (or perception of the phenomena) by some human elements. For what it's worth, someone who knew Keel told me that Keel believed Yeti was a demon. We were discussing Mothman and the implication, although Keel never stated it to this person, was that Mothman was also a demon. That fits in with some of the things that Upton said. Of course, that leaves it up to interpretation how Keel defined demon. I'm not at all sure he would have defined the word as Upton does.

It seems to me that the government (or factions within the government) very much want us to believe in the ET hypothesis. This is contrary to the popular belief that the government knows a lot about UFOs/ETs and wants to keep it from us. Belief in ETs is the Trojan horse (or one of many Trojan horses) through which these factions deliver whatever message they intend for us to accept.

I don't know about this. Anything that you hear or read about aliens is coming from a human mindset for which there is no evidence. So anyone is qualified to speak their piece. Anyone can call anything whatever they want and the more outrageous the more it'll be eaten up by those predisposed to accept far out topics as having some kind of reality. The Yeti (Bigfoot, etc.) has to be a legend because footprints and fuzzy photos and videos do not show anything you can take to the bank. The TV series "Finding Bigfoot" has never shown the team having any success. Same for the "Mountain Monsters" and all such similar TV shows. No evidence, period. Ditto for "Mothman", strictly a human construction.

There is no doubt that Vallee is a heavy thinker and he comes up with exotic explanations but he doesn't have any evidence for anything he postulates. No one knows anything about alleged aliens and to pigeonhole them is downright ridiculous especially as extraterrestrials. No evidence.

And I do not, for one moment, think that the U.S. government is engaged in anything other than spying on us and engaging in worldwide wars. There is no federal agency that is hell bent on trying to "...very much want us to believe in the ET hypothesis." No one in D.C. gives a darn about aliens and probably even UFOs because they know that nothing material has been forthcoming for them to get their hands on. I don't accept anything that comes out of the White House, Congress and Senate, they're all a bunch of rich fools that don't give a darn about you or me.

UFOs and alleged aliens are a civilian thing as you can see by the activity generated strictly by civilians.

a reply to: Uggielicious

If you seriously think that the government has never done anything to 'promote' belief in UFOs, I just have to ask - where on Earth have you been

Research: The Aviary, Paul Bennewitz, and Serpo - just for starters...oh wait, I'm forgetting "Miragemen"...

All of the above lead directly to government 'factions' which were most certainly involved in faking UFO/ET in order to generate belief among the general public...

originally posted by: Uggielicious

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: Tangerine

I like that analogy

Btw I don’t really have an answer to the UFO mystery only a theory amongst many.

I Think Vallee is in the similar boat as John Keel…comparing it to metaphysical phenomenon and not buying the et theory. These guys are into Ultraterrestrail---spirits

Though Keel’s was negative… he thinks the alien thing is a Trojan horse of some sort

I'm inclined to agree that the alien thing is a Trojan horse. It seems to me that Vallee believes there is an ultraterrestrial component plus manipulation of the phenomena (or perception of the phenomena) by some human elements. For what it's worth, someone who knew Keel told me that Keel believed Yeti was a demon. We were discussing Mothman and the implication, although Keel never stated it to this person, was that Mothman was also a demon. That fits in with some of the things that Upton said. Of course, that leaves it up to interpretation how Keel defined demon. I'm not at all sure he would have defined the word as Upton does.

It seems to me that the government (or factions within the government) very much want us to believe in the ET hypothesis. This is contrary to the popular belief that the government knows a lot about UFOs/ETs and wants to keep it from us. Belief in ETs is the Trojan horse (or one of many Trojan horses) through which these factions deliver whatever message they intend for us to accept.

I don't know about this. Anything that you hear or read about aliens is coming from a human mindset for which there is no evidence. So anyone is qualified to speak their piece. Anyone can call anything whatever they want and the more outrageous the more it'll be eaten up by those predisposed to accept far out topics as having some kind of reality. The Yeti (Bigfoot, etc.) has to be a legend because footprints and fuzzy photos and videos do not show anything you can take to the bank. The TV series "Finding Bigfoot" has never shown the team having any success. Same for the "Mountain Monsters" and all such similar TV shows. No evidence, period.

There is no doubt that Vallee is a heavy thinker and he comes up with exotic explanations but he doesn't have any evidence for anything he postulates. No one knows anything about alleged aliens and to pigeonhole them is downright ridiculous especially as extraterrestrials. No evidence.

And I do not, for one moment, think that the U.S. government is engaged in anything other than spying on us and engaging in worldwide wars. There is no federal agency that is hell bent on trying to "...very much want us to believe in the ET hypothesis." No one in D.C. gives a darn about aliens and probably even UFOs because they know that nothing material has been forthcoming for them to get their hands on. I don't accept anything that comes out of the White House, Congress and Senate, they're all a bunch of rich fools that don't give a darn about you or me.

UFOs and alleged aliens are a civilian thing as you can see by the activity generated strictly by civilians.

Poor quality TV shows do not, in themselves, prove that something does not exist. In fact, it's impossible to prove a negative. I can't think of a worse way to find something in the wild than to go into the woods with an entire television crew.

I think you're confused about Vallee's positions. He has never pushed the extraterrestrial theory. Neither have I.

The government is very much involved in manipulating our beliefs about various subjects. Do you watch the news? Government officials routinely appear on news programs trying to convince us of various things. Are you familiar with a government project called MKULTRA?

There has been a lot regarding UFOs that has come from the government. Are you familiar with Project Bluebook?

I'm not sure what I said, other than government manipulation of beliefs, that you disagree with. Could you state specifically what you're disagreeing with?

originally posted by: Tangerine

You mentioned that the Jesus message is one of forgiveness, etc.. You're forgetting the threats of Hell that the Jesus character made.

It seems that people take from these stories that which they want or need to take and dismiss the rest. Hmmm.

This is where two specific words from the post you're referring to come in: "discerning" and "student"...

Because the bible has been translated and retranslated so much in it's history, it should not be read as literal, word for word, documentation...

It has to be 'studied' - with reference to original language and 'discernment' as to context...

Jesus does not 'threaten people with Hell' - fundamentalist dogma 'says' that He does...

The point of the post you refer to was not to make any claim for Jesus' existence:

The point was that 'if' (and I make no claim either way), 'if' Jesus existed, He was an example of unconditional Love** - and not the judgmental, 'christian', hate monger defined by dogmatic hearsay...

**I don't know how the "control system defines/uses unconditional love", but I can tell you that as a mother, my love for my child is absolutely unconditional...(as both "an ideal" and "In action")...

...Now, imagine perfect, parental love - this is the 'God' I've experienced - and if Jesus existed, His purpose was to be a flesh and blood example of this kind of Love, so that people could understand what "Love thy neighbor" truly means...

Hope that clarifies things, let's not take up any more of the thread debating this, please...

originally posted by: lostgirl

originally posted by: Tangerine

You mentioned that the Jesus message is one of forgiveness, etc.. You're forgetting the threats of Hell that the Jesus character made.

It seems that people take from these stories that which they want or need to take and dismiss the rest. Hmmm.

This is where two specific words from the post you're referring to come in: "discerning" and "student"...

Because the bible has been translated and retranslated so much in it's history, it should not be read as literal, word for word, documentation...

It has to be 'studied' - with reference to original language and 'discernment' as to context...

Jesus does not 'threaten people with Hell' - fundamentalist dogma 'says' that He does...

The point of the post you refer to was not to make any claim for Jesus' existence:

The point was that 'if' (and I make no claim either way), 'if' Jesus existed, He was an example of unconditional Love** - and not the judgmental, 'christian', hate monger defined by dogmatic hearsay...

**I don't know how the "control system defines/uses unconditional love", but I can tell you that as a mother, my love for my child is absolutely unconditional...(as both "an ideal" and "In action")...

...Now, imagine perfect, parental love - this is the 'God' I've experienced - and if Jesus existed, His purpose was to be a flesh and blood example of this kind of Love, so that people could understand what "Love thy neighbor" truly means...

Hope that clarifies things, let's not take up any more of the thread debating this, please...

I agree that isn't the thread in which to debate Christianity. However, by pointing out that there is no hard evidence that Jesus actually lived, I compared him to faeries and greys and raised the question of whether the Jesus story is part of a/the control system. That makes it pertinent to the thread. There are people who believe that ETs are here to "save us" (ie offer unconditional love) just as you characterized the Jesus message. Again, the analogy makes it pertinent to the discussion. Lastly, you brought it up. However, we have far more interesting things to discuss on this thread.

a reply to: Tangerine

I agree, there are better things to discuss here, but if you study the record there is no doubt that Jesus in fact lived.

originally posted by: wtbengineer
a reply to: Tangerine

I agree, there are better things to discuss here, but if you study the record there is no doubt that Jesus in fact lived.

I have studied it. There is zero contemporaneous documentation of his existence. Not one person who lived when he allegedly lived wrote that s/he witnessed him living (Paul claimed a vision not a witnessing of the living Jesus). Nothing was written about him until two generations after he allegedly lived. As I said, that puts him in the realm of the faeries and the greys and, I'll now add, Zeus. It seems that people with a religious agenda want to bring up Jesus and make claims they can't support and then want to declare the subject off-limits. I call foul. If you bring it up, anyone can comment on it.

But, more pertinent to this thread, the control system that used the stories about him certainly existed and continues to exist. Whether the control system was and is purely human is open to debate. To my mind, that control system operated and operates remarkably like the one Vallee talks about.

It doesn't matter. Western philosophical and metaphysical thought develops as a stream; the stream carried the "little fish" and has for 2000 years. It leads to a Jesus. It coulda led to a Mithras or some other competitor congruent to this time of which, I agree with Upton, we are the telos, but it didn't, its Jesus.

It has to work that way, in order for a Control System based on stories to work. Otherwise you'd be all, "Heyyyy, that's bull#" and ignore it.

Instead of what you are doing now, which is wholesomely arguing over it thus fueling the dialectic which is the fire that we use to defeat matter. Which is also, consequently, why atheists are important.

The important thing is that He lives inside of us now, and so it comes down to us. All or nothing.

originally posted by: Tangerine
snip
I'm not sure what I said, other than government manipulation of beliefs, that you disagree with. Could you state specifically what you're disagreeing with?

I've been a UFO enthusiast since I was 19 in 1957 and am now 76. I've been aware of everything that has transpired about UFOs and alleged aliens as extraterrestrials and I read almost every book written about every aspect of UFOs. I probably know more about the subject than the average enthusiast. I've also had 5 or 6 sightings and I videotaped one.

I am also a natural skeptic which is what kicks in when I read or hear about government manipulation, especially mentally. I've never seen any evidence of such. I have not been affected by anything the government does except for 9/11. Especially beliefs, I don't have a belief system and I'm knowledgeable about mental conditioning as I was a good hypnotist back in the '60s. There is no way that I've ever been manipulated by the gov't and I will never be.

I didn't mention Vallee's position on anything, especially et. However, his view is that "ET/cyborgs probably belong to the local planetary realm. Vallee also proposes that the ET/UFO enigma is a “spiritual control system,”. (metahistory.org)

a reply to: Bybyots

Point taken.

originally posted by: Uggielicious

originally posted by: Tangerine
snip
I'm not sure what I said, other than government manipulation of beliefs, that you disagree with. Could you state specifically what you're disagreeing with?

I've been a UFO enthusiast since I was 19 in 1957 and am now 76. I've been aware of everything that has transpired about UFOs and alleged aliens as extraterrestrials and I read almost every book written about every aspect of UFOs. I probably know more about the subject than the average enthusiast. I've also had 5 or 6 sightings and I videotaped one.

I am also a natural skeptic which is what kicks in when I read or hear about government manipulation, especially mentally. I've never seen any evidence of such. I have not been affected by anything the government does except for 9/11. Especially beliefs, I don't have a belief system and I'm knowledgeable about mental conditioning as I was a good hypnotist back in the '60s. There is no way that I've ever been manipulated by the gov't and I will never be.

I didn't mention Vallee's position on anything, especially et. However, his view is that "ET/cyborgs probably belong to the local planetary realm. Vallee also proposes that the ET/UFO enigma is a “spiritual control system,”. (metahistory.org)

You said, in a previous post, "There is no doubt that Vallee is a heavy thinker and he comes up with exotic explanations but he doesn't have any evidence for anything he postulates. No one knows anything about alleged aliens and to pigeonhole them is downright ridiculous especially as extraterrestrials. No evidence. "

I took that to mean that you thought Vallee claimed that "alleged aliens" were "extraterrestrials." If I misinterpreted your post, I apologize.

I wasn't aware that Vallee had a position on "cyborgs". If he said anything about cyborgs I either missed it or have forgotten it.

Forgive me for being skeptical about your claim that you don't have a belief system and that there's no way you have ever been manipulated by the government. A belief system doesn't necessarily imply a religion and it would be quite remarkable to not ever have been manipulated in some way by the government.

Nevertheless, Vallee's control system is the topic of this thread so we should probably focus on that.

originally posted by: Tangerine
snip
You said, in a previous post, "There is no doubt that Vallee is a heavy thinker and he comes up with exotic explanations but he doesn't have any evidence for anything he postulates. No one knows anything about alleged aliens and to pigeonhole them is downright ridiculous especially as extraterrestrials. No evidence. "

I took that to mean that you thought Vallee claimed that "alleged aliens" were "extraterrestrials." If I misinterpreted your post, I apologize.

No need to apologize but thanks anyway. The two sentences are separate and the second one doesn't include Vallee.

I wasn't aware that Vallee had a position on "cyborgs". If he said anything about cyborgs I either missed it or have forgotten it.

I got the quote from a Google search on Vallee's views on et.

Forgive me for being skeptical about your claim that you don't have a belief system and that there's no way you have ever been manipulated by the government. A belief system doesn't necessarily imply a religion and it would be quite remarkable to not ever have been manipulated in some way by the government.

I spent four years in the Air Force and I was somewhat manipulated but I didn't lose free thought and the only requirement that I had to deal with was being forced to go to church even though I'm an atheist. They didn't know this 'cause if they had I would have never been accepted. It's easy to counter a belief system: stick to facts, evidence. Otherwise you're someone's mental slave.

Nevertheless, Vallee's control system is the topic of this thread so we should probably focus on that.

I found Vallee's views interesting but I didn't subscribe to them as I had my own thoughts also and we were sometimes in agreement.

Here's a photo I took of Vallee and author Ralph Bloom at the United Naitons in late 1978.

originally posted by: Tangerine
But would it matter if Jesus never existed? There's not an iota of contemporaneous documentation proving that he actually lived. That puts him in the realm of the fairies and the greys (ie. no testable evidence that they exist(ed). Does he, therefore, serve the same purpose?

It wouldn't matter to me particularly if he had never existed. I like to think that he did, and while there may be no solid evidence that he did, there is sufficient circumstantial evidence to suggest that he was, but either way, if one pays attention to such things, it is the message that is important, not the messenger. His teachings, or those ascribed to him, belong to a much older tradition, and stand alongside those of other teachers in other times and places. Perhaps too much importance has been placed on Jesus himself, but in reality it doesn't matter, but the idea does.

originally posted by: Tangerine
You mentioned that the Jesus message is one of forgiveness, etc.. You're forgetting the threats of Hell that the Jesus character made.

But at that time, that was what people believed, and Jesus himself said he was not about destroying the system. He told people to pay their taxes, do their duty, serve their masters etc etc. His teachings were in line with Judaism, merely tempered by mercy over justice. It should be borne in mind that according to the gospels, Matthew in particular, I think, he is asked by his disciples why he talks in parables to the 'people' and he explains, roundaboutly, that that is what they understand, and so he talks to them at that level. Talk of hell can be seen in the same light. if someone believes in hell, then the threat of hell and damnation has meaning. So why wouldn't he do so? If you read the gospels, Jesus shows flaws, he expresses anger, frustration, the whole gamut of human emotions, that does not detract from the message central to his teachings, if anything, it emphasises it. For me, anyway.

originally posted by: Willtell


I Think Vallee is in the similar boat as John Keel…comparing it to metaphysical phenomenon and not buying the et theory. These guys are into Ultraterrestrail---spirits

I think Robert Anton Wilson was closest into the actual reality of the situation.


It's not an either/or situation. It's complex, with metaphysical/spiritual forces interacting with, and in combination with the nuts and bolts, tactile, solid world that most accept as "reality" and often confuse the two.

It's going to take awhile for the monkeys with guns to mature enough to "grok" the actual situation. There are ways to get a slight glimpse behind the curtain but even that may be a manufactured illusion. Like I said it's complex.

a reply to: Bybyots

"a control system based on stories"

I've never thought of it that way before - I think you have 'something' there, just not sure what...

...could be fruitful if some discussion elaborating in that direction could be generated.

p.s. Freaky avatar, man - hope it doesn't give me nightmares