God exists as an omniscient and omnipotent conscious being.

Argument number one: If there is no God, then how does anything exist?

Something does not spontaneously come from nothing, or if it does, this phenomena has not been observed anywhere in nature.

Argument number two: If there is no Supreme Being, why do so many believe in one?

Humanity as a species is a lot smarter than most people give us credit for. George Carlin said we're "semi-civilized beasts with baseball caps and automatic weapons." While this may or may not accurately reflect the general civilization level of humanity, not everyone worships what most would call "God." Some of us perceive this being in a way that is totally harmonic with nature and every facet of human experience. Miracles are not necessary to us, even though we know our God is capable of them, for one small example!

Argument number three: There are no atheists in foxholes.

THERE ARE NO ATHEISTS IN FOXHOLES.

Argument number four: Arguments 1 through 3 are invalid.

No matter what you believe, I'm going to believe what I want. If the evidence for my God changes, then I will change my view of Him accordingly. Saying there is not a God, or telling anyone else what God "is" is pointless. I love my God and nothing anyone can say will ever change that, for me or anyone.

GodIsRelative
Something does not spontaneously come from nothing

I've heard this argument refuted with a small analogy.

The example being--that consciousness reduces itself to near non-existence and emerges each and every time we sleep and wake!

Essentially, we aware beings and our minds go to the subtlest form of non-awareness and spring into total lucidity every day. Why can't the consciousness that is the cosmos follow a similar example?

The unmanifest, subtle, sleeping consciousness of the cosmos simply woke up, focused, and became aware! We do this everyday in "his/her" image.

reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha


I'm not denying that. I was simply insisting that consciousness has always existed. When one falls asleep, one is always there. When one wakes, one is always there. It simply doesn't need to be the same one every time. If consciousness becomes close to nothing when we sleep, is it impossible to wake up as someone else?

reply to post by GodIsRelative

Argument number one: If there is no God, then how does anything exist?

Something does not spontaneously come from nothing, or if it does, this phenomena has not been observed anywhere in nature.

Argument number two: If there is no Supreme Being, why do so many believe in one?

Argument number three: There are no atheists in foxholes.

THERE ARE NO ATHEISTS IN FOXHOLES.

Answer number one: What makes you think there ever was a time nothing existed. Pure speculation.

Answer number two: Lots of people believe lots of ridiculous things, doesn't prove anything.

Answer number three: How do you know there are no atheists in foxholes? Have you ever been in one? I have.

Edit - To be clear I'm not saying god does not exist, or that he does. You can consider that my answer to # 4.

reply to post by Bassago

You get a gold star.

Edit: I'm not claiming any God exists except the one that you believe in.

reply to post by GodIsRelative

Argument number one: If there is no God, then how does anything exist?

This is a rhetorical question. Not a statement of fact. If you were to say: If god didn't exist, there would be nothing. It's a statement that can't be supported by any evidence humans are privy to (yourself included). Nor can your rhetorical question answer the conundrum.

Argument number two: If there is no Supreme Being, why do so many believe in one?

Same reason people are ruled by fear. Same reason there are only so many alpha-type personalities. If everyone was a warrior we'd all kill ourselves. People that "feel" god are making their judgements based on emotions rather than logic and reason. Faith - the very definition of it, means you have to forgo any type of critical thinking.

Argument number three: There are no atheists in foxholes.

You took a survey did you?

Whether or not people believe in god, is also completely different whether they give themselves to any man made religions.

The yearning we have to find our origins, could be nothing more than biological programming telling us to spread our seeds throughout the universe. No different than countless organisms on Earth that do the same thing. God, depending on your outlook, might be a star that collapsed eons ago, and no one is really expecting it to take you to heaven on the way out.

Argument number four: Arguments 1 through 3 are invalid.

Why post them?

reply to post by GodIsRelative


Argument number three: There are no atheists in foxholes.

Prepare to be amazed

Last post
While serving in Afghanistan, Petty Officer Chris Holden has attended numerous memorials to honour the dead. This is what they look like to an atheist

Plus I was. So now you know.

Argument one can be applied to the question I see asked about the big bang and what was before the singularity.

Everything that comprised the singularity existed before the singularity.

Argument number two: If there is no Supreme Being, why do so many believe in one?

Brainwashing, stupidity, cultural norm, fear, hope, delusion, imagination, mental shortcuts, need, want, ......... Pick one or two, mix and match. People find all sorts of reasons but the one that is always missing from that list is evidence.

I don't really care if someone believes or not but if they do they should realize it isn't because of evidence they should be proud of their faith but know their faith is a substitute for evidence.

reply to post by boncho


To demonstrate the futility of claiming an absolute about something that by its very definition is an article of faith. "Do you believe in God?" is a question that should not be. You wouldn't ask "Do you believe in the sunrise?" Some questions that I think should be asked are "Who or what is God?", "What have we been told about God?", and "What should we believe about what we've been told about God?"

reply to post by GodIsRelative


Brain researcher at MIT ...DR Natapoff said that the human brain can conceive of nothing completely new. It just isn't how our brain works. Our brain is associative and is great at building better mouse traps but has to see a mouse trap first to better it in some way. We, therefore, tend to build a better mouse trap based off of something in nature.

see a bird fly....want to figure out how to make an airplane
see a lightning bolt...want to figure out how to harness or create electricity
see a rock roll down a hill....want to build a wheel.
etc etc etc

the problem is....there is nothing in nature to mouse trap an all powerful God in the sky that controls everything and made everything.....so....therefore, the human brain couldn't have conceived of it....unless God himself made us aware or showed himself to someone who then wrote it down and passed the idea down from generation to generation.

reply to post by Grimpachi


Thank you for your reply.

This post was not intended to be a list of evidence for God. Belief is not evidence, I know. As for the atheists in foxholes thing, it is fairly well-known as a saying, and again, not evidence for God.

The evidence for God is the existence of the idea of God. As for who or what God actually is, it's not my place to say. This is where belief comes in. I look at the holy books, I look at the world, and I look at myself for evidence of God's touch. Could it be the law of attraction that causes me to see "fingerprints?" It's not impossible. After all, with each question I ask about God, I form an idea and I look for an answer. It's not impossible that I find meaning where there is none. But I believe in faith that grows. And my faith keeps growing.

GodIsRelative
reply to post by boncho

 

To demonstrate the futility of claiming an absolute about something that by its very definition is an article of faith. "Do you believe in God?" is a question that should not be. You wouldn't ask "Do you believe in the sunrise?" Some questions that I think should be asked are "Who or what is God?", "What have we been told about God?", and "What should we believe about what we've been told about God?"

If god is real why does one have to be told about him? How's that for a question…

reply to post by GodIsRelative

The evidence for God is the existence of the idea of God. As for who or what God actually is, it's not my place to say. This is where belief comes in. I look at the holy books, I look at the world, and I look at myself for evidence of God's touch. Could it be the law of attraction that causes me to see "fingerprints?" It's not impossible. After all, with each question I ask about God, I form an idea and I look for an answer. It's not impossible that I find meaning where there is none. But I believe in faith that grows. And my faith keeps growing.

The evidence for Scooby-Doo is the existence of the idea of Scooby-Doo. As for who or what Scooby-Doo actually is, it's not my place to say. This is where belief comes in. I look at the tv shows, I look at the world, and I look at myself for evidence of Scooby-Doo's touch. Could it be the law of attraction that causes me to see "pawprints?" It's not impossible. After all, with each question I ask about Scooby-Doo, I form an idea and I look for an answer. It's not impossible that I find meaning where there is none. But I believe in faith that grows. And my faith keeps growing.

My point here is not that Scooby-Doo is real, its that your reasoning is flawed. The argument is just as valid when referring to God, Scooby-Doo, or Santa Clause. I do not disrespect your beliefs, they are yours and yours alone and you are free to believe what ever you want. What i will not respect is the use of logical fallacy and invalid reasoning in an attempt to validate something that, by its very nature, can not be validated.

DC

reply to post by xDeadcowx


You inadvertently made the best argument for God and Scooby Doo ever. Scooby Doo is just a cartoon in this universe. You can't say Scooby Doo doesn't exist, because it does. And THAT is the point I was trying to make.

GodIsRelative
Edit: I'm not claiming any God exists except the one that you believe in

Your first argument is the soundest of the four.
But a better argument for the Biblical God is a fifth one; he exists because he said so (i.e. he communicates).

As for the fourth one, especially as amplified above, I don't like it at all.
Religion is offering a map of the universe- either it is true absolutely, whether people believe it ot not, or it is not true at all.
A map of the United States, for example, is true according to whether it matches reality, not according to whether people believe it or like what it shows.

Lets be constructive here! RFT is ignorant, niave, sheeple controlling
poop!
I dont wish to beat about the bush and I dont mean the burning one but
lets be honest with ourselves and grasp the concept of a "crutchless society
and existence".
GOD = DOG and they poop outdoors in the real world.

Set thyself free from the poop and open your mind to reality!

Have a nice day

reply to post by GodIsRelative

The evidence for God is the existence of the idea of God.

The existence of the idea itself is the evidence. Interesting..

Look at all these ideas that exist:

List of Roman Deities

reply to post by GodIsRelative


The existence of an idea, or concept does not make something exist.

There is the idea of God and Scooby-Doo and sure, the idea exists, but that doesn't mean either one of them exists in reality. We can play schematics all day long, but that will not change the fact that an idea for an entity does not make the entity real.

reply to post by xDeadcowx


I respectfully disagree. I don't think Scooby Doo exists as a dog in our universe. I believe he exists as a dog in his own universe. I base this on the fact that I've seen that universe on tv. The universe may have its own creator, and it may exist only within the mind of its creator, but there is no reason to believe it is any less real than our own universe.

reply to post by DISRAELI


There is a facet that I didn't get to in my OP.

Not believing in God doesn't make God not real. Not believing in God is akin to being cold and standing away from the fire. I simply believe that God loves each one of us so much that He would let us believe what we want and still not turn away from us. This doesn't mean that he will be silent! The Lord is never silent. He is only seldom heard.

Edit: It's really more like being cold and being afraid of the fire.

reply to post by GodIsRelative

Yes, that seems to fill the gap.
Otherwise it was sounding like "It's true for you if you believe in it", which is a piece of modern absurdity.