what is your DEEN(religion)?

FlyersFan

logical7
It's scary how closely they resemble a terrorist in thinking!!!

It's scary that you think that a person truthfully exposing Muhammads lies in an online chat forum is the same as a muslim terrorist blowing up the World Trade Center and mass murdering thousands of people. Spooooooky scary.

you continue your good work then!!!
Go FF Go!!! Save the world from Izlam and Moslims!!!

reply to post by logical7

I do not subscribe to the system you were raised in.

Your 'system' is not that different. India has been a secular, democratic state for a long time (almost exactly the same age as Isreal!); definitely since before you were born.

I do not have the assumptions that you have so obviously I do not see the things as you do nor think the way you do. I do try to understand how the system influences your perceptions and judgements.

I appreciate your effort to understand. Your country is described on Wiki as follows:

The Indian economy is the world's tenth-largest by nominal GDP and third-largest by purchasing power parity (PPP).[17]

Following market-based economic reforms in 1991, India became one of the fastest-growing major economies; it is considered a newly industrialised country.

However, it continues to face the challenges of poverty, corruption, malnutrition, inadequate public healthcare, and terrorism.

A nuclear weapons state and a regional power, it has the third-largest standing army in the world and ranks eighth in military expenditure among nations.

India is a federal constitutional republic governed under a parliamentary system consisting of 28 states and 7 union territories.

India is a pluralistic, multilingual, and a multi-ethnic society. It is also home to a diversity of wildlife in a variety of protected habitats.

The Constitution of India, which came into effect on 26 January 1950,[160] states in its preamble that India is a sovereign, socialist, secular, democratic republic.[161] India's form of government, traditionally described as "quasi-federal" with a strong centre and weak states,[162] has grown increasingly federal since the late 1990s as a result of political, economic, and social changes.[163][164]
en.wikipedia.org...

Is the above information incorrect?

And... if yes, what are you doing to change YOUR country's politics and equity?
(Aside from blame 'the West')

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

I do not subscribe to the system you were raised in.

Your 'system' is not that different. India has been a secular, democratic state for a long time (almost exactly the same age as Isreal!); definitely since before you were born.

I do not have the assumptions that you have so obviously I do not see the things as you do nor think the way you do. I do try to understand how the system influences your perceptions and judgements.

I appreciate your effort to understand. Your country is described on Wiki as follows:

The Indian economy is the world's tenth-largest by nominal GDP and third-largest by purchasing power parity (PPP).[17]

Following market-based economic reforms in 1991, India became one of the fastest-growing major economies; it is considered a newly industrialised country.

However, it continues to face the challenges of poverty, corruption, malnutrition, inadequate public healthcare, and terrorism.

A nuclear weapons state and a regional power, it has the third-largest standing army in the world and ranks eighth in military expenditure among nations.

India is a federal constitutional republic governed under a parliamentary system consisting of 28 states and 7 union territories.

India is a pluralistic, multilingual, and a multi-ethnic society. It is also home to a diversity of wildlife in a variety of protected habitats.

The Constitution of India, which came into effect on 26 January 1950,[160] states in its preamble that India is a sovereign, socialist, secular, democratic republic.[161] India's form of government, traditionally described as "quasi-federal" with a strong centre and weak states,[162] has grown increasingly federal since the late 1990s as a result of political, economic, and social changes.[163][164]
en.wikipedia.org...

Is the above information incorrect?

And... if yes, what are you doing to change YOUR country's politics and equity?
(Aside from blame 'the West')

edit on 1/29/14 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

Well yes India has a similar political and democratic system but why you assume that I was talking about it?
You do agree that a certain selective education can influence the thinking a certain way.
People in India are however much open to the paranormal /unseen.
Just being educated in a system does not mean that everyone gets influenced equally nor that it's permanent.

I do what I can on my part socially and politically.

Also I do not blame the west, I talk about it to you because are western. If I am talking to another Muslim then I point to what things muslims are doing wrong.
I do not see the point in talking that to you except acknowledge it once.

logical7

You do agree that a certain selective education can influence the thinking a certain way.
People in India are however much open to the paranormal /unseen.
Just being educated in a system does not mean that everyone gets influenced equally nor that it's permanent.

Good that you are not conditioned to be blind to the paranormal /unseen. I can agree that teaching a way of materialism education can be blinding in spiritual matters. But everyone suffers their own conditioning by culture/environment.

The whole duality issue that arises where Muslim is being targeted by hate caused by other Muslim for national agenda from Saudi Arabia is very telling. Sunni Islam has not had it's protestant movement where it rebels from centralised control from Mecca as Martin Luther had towards Catholicism. As long as you wear the same garmented name (Muslim) as the rulers in Saudi Arabia you will face the hate that their actions create. It is for this reason they call themselves Muslim so that they can hide like wolves in sheep clothing.

If we are in the time of Revelation (or someone is trying to create the disasters in it) then the Whore of Babylon is in play. Will it be Jerusalem or Mecca that will be the "Whore of Babylon"? It is always the little guy that gets in trouble when ego demonic beings (in human flesh) play their duality games of insane greed. May their souls find their way home.

reply to post by LittleByLittle


Saudi royals and wahabis have a pact to support each other. Prophet Muhammad pbuh pointed towards a region in arabia and said that the horn of devil will appear from there. Guess from which region the Royals are!!!

reply to post by logical7

People in India are however much open to the paranormal /unseen.

They also mostly believe in reincarnation, which you refuse to do.

What does that have to do with religious indoctrination at school for EVERY kid?

Just being educated in a system does not mean that everyone gets influenced equally nor that it's permanent.

If you get the kids young enough, yes, that 'education' is imprinted into the child's brain. I worked as a parent educator for years, and taught classes on how the early childhood experiences PERMANENTLY influence the brain.

For example, if a child never hears the sounds made in a particular language, at some point the "window of opportunity" that the brain has for language SHUTS DOWN. Then they CAN'T hear the sounds. (Chinese have trouble with L, for example).

When you tell a preschooler that he or she is a worthless sinner destined for hell, you are affecting their brains. It "CAN" be unlearned, much later, but it's very, very, very difficult to let go of that indoctrination/imprinting. There are several websites and organizations built for helping people get OUT of that mindset, with lots of personal stories about how hard it is.

But it's your limited knowledge of psychology and brain development that makes you think it's not "permanent".
"Give me the child until he's 7, and I'll give you the man." This is often attributed to various people - but it goes way, way back.
And it's the TRUTH.

reply to post by logical7

Well yes India has a similar political and democratic system but why you assume that I was talking about it?

In nearly every post you make, you talk about how "bad" secular is, how "low" people in democratic countries are - they're all pimps or whores, drunken slobs with no concern for anyone, no modesty, no morals. And it's a lie.

Glad you actually see that - it's refreshing to hear at least an occasional 'well, okay, that's not as bad as I thought. Thanks for helping me understand.'

reply to post by logical7

If I am talking to another Muslim then I point to what things muslims are doing wrong.
I do not see the point in talking that to you except acknowledge it once.

You don't?

Sheesh. If you, a Muslim, sees things wrong with how other Muslims behave - but you won't tell us "infidels" what those things ARE, how can we work TOGETHER to stop them??

I'd be happy to tell you how I would "deal with" Evangelical Christians in Africa (stop letting them in). How to shut down the Westboro Baptist Church (form a human shield between them and their victims). How to help people who were taught self-loathing, shame, and worthlessness (abused) as children to get past that indoctrination, to help them SEE how they were oppressed without even knowing it.

Then you over in "your place" could work WITH me to stop it, instead of just insulting and putting ME down every chance you get.
*eyeroll*

Shiloh7
reply to post by OptimusSubprime

 

I agree with you over Christianity. A while ago I read about Appolonius the Nazarene of Tyana and was shocked about the similarities between his life and the supposed life of Jesus. I was even more sujrprised when I realised that he retired to Patmos and is most likely the real author of Revellation - along with constantine of course. Religion has never made any sense to me, even as a child and when I read that Constantine had suddenly U-turned and decided that Christianity would be the religion of the then failing Roman Empire, after he had written it up at Nicea, suddenly the use of Christianity as a means of the old Roman Empire keeping total control within its few elite hands made complete sense; especially as there is no record of Jesus ever living except by interpolation within only Christian literature. Despite efforts to destroy all record of Appolonius's life we are lucky that records existed outside Constantine's reach.

I believe in the pagan view of a world with multi Gods or immortal beings and the adage Do as you would be done by.

Actually it was Constatine's mother who convinced her son that Christianity was the true religion. After she spread the gospel to her son is when he proclaimed Christianity as the true religion. His mother often traveled to Jerusalem.

logical7
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

Saudi royals and wahabis have a pact to support each other. Prophet Muhammad pbuh pointed towards a region in arabia and said that the horn of devil will appear from there. Guess from which region the Royals are!!!

You have your information, I have mine pointing at the same trouble makers. . In a way I am myself probably trapped by duality preconditioned to seeing part of Islam in a bad light also. I know there are saint and people struggling needlessly in your view point also. We are a work in progress in God:s creation. For some reason I always get happy when I hear of the Sufi:s like Rumi. Do you consider the Sufi:s part of Islam or not?

reply to post by wildtimes

Then you over in "your place" could work WITH me to stop it, instead of just insulting and putting ME down every chance you get. 
*eyeroll*

I cannot work with you to address the problems at my place because you do not see the whole picture unless you experience it and not just read an article on internet and dish out advices.

How do you protect the victims of WBC? By forming a human shield???

Do you know why WBC even exists?

It's due to over-secularization which created a void filled by people who felt their religion and religious ways being threatened.

So basically when you advocate less and less expression of religions in public sphere the more you are fanning extremism.
Think about that!!!

People don't want to leave God and become agnostic like you and the ideas and suggestions you have are because you are agnostic. They don't always appeal to religious people and the more you push, the more polarization it would cause!!!

reply to post by logical7


I could make any number of replies to this rather nasty response, but I have figured out it does no good with you.

Your anger and arrogance absolutely preclude productive conversation. You try to portray me as some gullible know-nothing - even though I've spent hours of my time and thousands upon thousands of keystrokes to attempt to explain to you what I know, what I've lived through, and how things are over here.

Since you persist in treating me like I'm a 14-year old, ignorant ditz (look it up) with no clue about the world, I am going to stop trying. You have a far more limited 'exposure' to the truth than you are aware of, and miles and miles to go before you're caught up with where I am in life.

So pitch your hissy fits and blame me for causing 'terrorism' and 'blowback' all you want. Sometime you might try looking in the mirror; but probably not until you're quite a bit older.

reply to post by logical7

not just read an article on internet and dish out advices.

Gha. How about if I live for 55 years, and spend 25 of those in the 'trenches' working with the disenfranchised, underprivileged, abused and exploited? Or going to graduate school and becoming trained about how group systems work, and what cultural competency is? Would that 'qualify me'?

"just read an article on internet and dish out advices"????

You are so insulting.
And it's becoming a problem, because you are deliberately misleading other readers about my perspective, intelligence, experiences and maturity.

So I will kindly request that you STOP slandering me in that manner.
Own your own part in the conversation; grow up, and recognize you aren't the "world's sage." You DON'T have a right to portray me the way you do - especially when you've been corrected over and over, and I'm TIRED OF IT.

I'm one small person on this planet - I have a right to express myself (for now), and to be recognized for my accumulated knowledge of how the world works. You don't have to agree with me, or like me, but whichever, you do NOT have the right to 'misconstrue' what I say or minimize/ignore the things I've told you about my KNOWLEDGE OF THE WORLD, or state such immature things as you did above.

You aren't even trying to continue this dialogue in the spirit in which it began so many months ago between you and me. I wanted to learn about your world-view. Now I've seen enough of it to stop caring.

reply to post by LittleByLittle


I love reading Rumi. I don't have a problem with Sufism but there are may sub-sects in it and I don't agree with the ones who think they are above Islamic basic five pillars.

I see Sufism as the spiritual part of Islam and the rules and regulations are the social part which also help spirituality to grow.

reply to post by wildtimes


I do not see that you want a dialogue. I see that you want me to acknowledge that your worldviews are right/better and everyone should join you to make the world as you imagine it should be.
I do not like that you are biased against religions and want them to disappear.
I am a Muslim and happy to be one. There are Christians who feel the same but it bothers you to no end that people become more religious.
I want people to become more God conscious and that is a difference that cannot be resolved so i may not continue to talk with you till you care to really have a dialogue..

reply to post by logical7

I see that you want me to acknowledge that your worldviews are right/better and everyone should join you to make the world as you imagine it should be.

Incorrect. I want you to "accept" that my worldviews are "legitimate".

You are projecting again.

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

I see that you want me to acknowledge that your worldviews are right/better and everyone should join you to make the world as you imagine it should be.

Incorrect. I want you to "accept" that my worldviews are "legitimate".

You are projecting again.

How about you accept that Islamic worldviews are legitimate...

reply to post by logical7

How about you accept that Islamic worldviews are legitimate...

I totally accept and understand that you find them legitimate. Insofar as having worldviews goes, every person's worldview is "legitimate".

What I don't accept is your repetitive "bashing" of the West as though you know more about it than I do due to my "bias" and "the culture I was born in." And your constant remarks that imply you haven't read and retained any of what I've said to you earlier.

reply to post by logical7

Do you know why WBC even exists?

It's due to over-secularization which created a void filled by people who felt their religion and religious ways being threatened

Um, no.

No, it isn't. It's a bunch of greedy, backward, ignorant and pushy lawyers who are the offspring and hangers-on of a fanatical Calvinist tyrant who abused, ridiculed, beat, and shamed his kids into submission, who are hell-bent on hating on everyone who's not part of their 'tribe' of extremist radicals. They are a registered "Hate Group".

*eye roll*

reply to post by logical7

I see that you want me to acknowledge that your worldviews are right/better and everyone should join you to make the world as you imagine it should be.

Well, at the moment I see you are back online, and I wanted a few minutes ago to rebutt this claim you made (quoted above).

What YOU want is for EVERYONE to acknowledge that YOUR worldviews are right/better and everyone should join YOU to make the world as you imagine it should be. Is that incorrect? No, it isn't. Therefore, you are projecting. You really should look it up, and spend some time learning psychology, group systems, family systems, propaganda, and bigotry.

Yes, of course I want the world to be as I imagine it should be! SO DO YOU.

But YOU are not looking for all sides of the equation (though you freely accuse others of not doing so, despite the evidence that they have).

It irritates the hell out of me that you think you are so 'wise and right', yet accuse others of being 'biased, ignorant, culturally influenced', etc.

YOU WANT EVERYONE TO BE MUSLIM. Admit it, and stop with the projection.

I WANT EVERYONE TO BE FREE. And Islam sounds like a total drag. That is my opinion, as a middle-aged white, American, middle-class, educated female. That's my "Deen."

So - we are, as per usual, at an impasse.