The Cost of Not Vaccinating

reply to post by masqua


I apologizing for claiming someone has a job...

What this thread and hundreds like it on ATS have proved over and over.

Like cars; there are two camps of believers of vaccines.
Those that believe they do more harm than good, and those that believe they do more good than harm.

Neither camp can be swayed by what ever information is out there.
Until the death tally starts racking up and is near impossible to hide.
Or inversely, the death tally is concealed from the people and more and more people are adversely effected. (no bias there )

Either way, I am done in this pointless debate.
Each side have made their arguments and neither side have proved their points sufficiently to the other party.

The world continues to orbit the sun and remains spherical.

Moving on.

reply to post by Grimpachi


I don't go ourt drinking, so don't have casual 'drinking conversations', not that that would matter if that is where the info came from, as it is accurate.

And no...i really don't see the point, you can lead a horse to water...

Sovaka
reply to post by Pardon?

 

A contractor, under the supervision of FDA and CDC, enters the information from VAERS forms into a database.

So if you say false reports can be filled under the supervision of the FDA and CDC then sure...

But then doesn't say much about their authority on the safety of vaccines does it?

Don't know where you got that quote from.
Attach a link with it.

This is from the VAERS site.
vaers.hhs.gov...

"VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning that reports about adverse events are not automatically collected, but require a report to be filed to VAERS. VAERS reports can be submitted voluntarily by anyone, including healthcare providers, patients, or family members. Reports vary in quality and completeness. They often lack details and sometimes can have information that contains errors."

They do not need to be supervised by anyone.

reply to post by Pardon?

Someone who's had the MMR can only transmit it if the vaccine has not worked then they are essentially unvaccinated.

Considering the vaccine industry themselves, in their own bumph claim only a vaccination success rate of between 8% and 11% (on a VERY good day), i'd say that would indeed leave a hell of a lot of infectious 'essentially unvaccinated' people running around...wouldn't you?

My own family members are among the statistics mate...out of 4 who recently had the 'flu shot' ALL of them became gravely ill, worse that they have ever been from catching influenza, with 2 of them requiring being hospitalised and one having to have her lungs drained...my elderly Mother, suckered into getting the shot by the persuasive insidious industry propaganda, said in her own words "I thought i was going to die".

That was within a couple of weeks of being pumped with the crap...ALL of them, who have no contact with each other...and their spouses, children didn't come down with a thing....curious, don't ya think!

So you see...take your stats and mealy mouthed protestations and i'll raise you actual, recent and very real near death experiences of family members right after being 'vaccinated'.

You can propably tell i am very unhappy speaking about this..so to avooid a stroke or cardiac arrest, you can propagandise on your own to your hearts content, but don't you bloody dare to presume arrogance on the part of those making informed, rational and personal choices over vaccination because it doesn't happen to tie into your personal view or agendas.

I'm out!

Sovaka
reply to post by masqua

 

I apologizing for claiming someone has a job...

What this thread and hundreds like it on ATS have proved over and over.

Like cars; there are two camps of believers of vaccines.
Those that believe they do more harm than good, and those that believe they do more good than harm.

Neither camp can be swayed by what ever information is out there.
Until the death tally starts racking up and is near impossible to hide.
Or inversely, the death tally is concealed from the people and more and more people are adversely effected. (no bias there

)

Either way, I am done in this pointless debate.
Each side have made their arguments and neither side have proved their points sufficiently to the other party.

The world continues to orbit the sun and remains spherical.

Moving on.

The difference is that anti-vaxxers use belief as their beliefs are based upon ignorance and misinformation.
I prefer to use empirical evidence.

If you go by the evidence then there is no debate.
If you are of the opinion that all pharma is bad then irrespective of the evidence you will cling to your belief.

I'm guessing you're "done in this pointless debate" as you've been countered in everything you've posted to the point you have nothing left.
G'Day.

MysterX
reply to post by Pardon?

 

Someone who's had the MMR can only transmit it if the vaccine has not worked then they are essentially unvaccinated.

Considering the vaccine industry themselves, in their own bumph claim only a vaccination success rate of between 8% and 11% (on a VERY good day), i'd say that would indeed leave a hell of a lot of infectious 'essentially unvaccinated' people running around...wouldn't you?

Again, where do you get these numbers from?
They're certainly not relevant to the MMR vaccine as you alluded to earlier.

reply to post by Pardon?


Look it up...i had to. Why do you expect others to find information you yourself claim ignorance to?

And i notice you conveniently ignore where you tripped over on your MMR infections argument, so it really is pointless talking to you isn't it.

Blood and stone mate.

MysterX
reply to post by Pardon?

 

Someone who's had the MMR can only transmit it if the vaccine has not worked then they are essentially unvaccinated.

Considering the vaccine industry themselves, in their own bumph claim only a vaccination success rate of between 8% and 11% (on a VERY good day), i'd say that would indeed leave a hell of a lot of infectious 'essentially unvaccinated' people running around...wouldn't you?

My own family members are among the statistics mate...out of 4 who recently had the 'flu shot' ALL of them became gravely ill, worse that they have ever been from catching influenza, with 2 of them requiring being hospitalised and one having to have her lungs drained...my elderly Mother, suckered into getting the shot by the persuasive insidious industry propaganda, said in her own words "I thought i was going to die".

That was within a couple of weeks of being pumped with the crap...ALL of them, who have no contact with each other...and their spouses, children didn't come down with a thing....curious, don't ya think!

So you see...take your stats and mealy mouthed protestations and i'll raise you actual, recent and very real near death experiences of family members right after being 'vaccinated'.

You can propably tell i am very unhappy speaking about this..so to avooid a stroke or cardiac arrest, you can propagandise on your own to your hearts content, but don't you bloody dare to presume arrogance on the part of those making informed, rational and personal choices over vaccination because it doesn't happen to tie into your personal view or agendas.

I'm out!

edit on 10-1-2014 by MysterX because: added info

Sorry, mate.
But I don't believe you.

reply to post by Sovaka


Well I admit I don't know much about the HPV Vaccine.

from your article

There may be side effects. Serious ones. Many Gardasil recipients experience normal vaccine aftermath like redness, soreness, and fainting. ("Any vaccine is associated with fainting," says Michael Lamacchia, M.D., an infectious disease specialist at St. Joseph's Children's Hospital in Paterson, New Jersey. As such, many docs want patients to stay in the office and rest for 15 to 20 minutes after a Gardasil shot.)

But thousands of women have also reported more worrisome issues, including crippling fatigue, paralysis, blindness, or autoimmune complications, and some have even died, according to CDC and FDA data.

it says

The FDA is not required to act in response to any side effect that occurs in fewer than one in 10,000 people.

Now you were the one that wrote cry me a river about 500 deaths dealing with measles and they have 70 deaths reported from this. I am not downplaying any ones death and as I said I don't know much about this vaccine but1 in 10,000 are the odds they report. If that vaccine was targeted at my gender I don't know if I would take it. It is relatively new. There is one I am watching and hoping it is ready for market soon. They are working on a malaria vaccine which I will be in line for if it becomes available and I hope the odds are as good as the one in question. As for the other claims for side affects well lets just say I do not trust human nature to lie for their possible monetary benefit.

Oh and I assure you I could never make a living off of typing this stuff if you know a place I could well send me the info as long as it is what I already believe I am fine with a paycheck. Unfortunately I think it is the other side of the fence that has the market cornered in spreading diss info but they do it on their own websites made to look like actual news sites. I would never stoop so low.

MysterX
reply to post by Pardon?

 

Look it up...i had to. Why do you expect others to find information you yourself claim ignorance to?

And i notice you conveniently ignore where you tripped over on your MMR infections argument, so it really is pointless talking to you isn't it.

Blood and stone mate.

I have looked it up and the real numbers are very different to the fabricated ones your posting.
Check my links earlier on.
And I only "tripped up" if you go by the numbers that you have made up.
So prove me wrong and post where you got the numbers from.

Grimpachi
reply to post by Sovaka

 

Well I admit I don't know much about the HPV Vaccine.

from your article

There may be side effects. Serious ones. Many Gardasil recipients experience normal vaccine aftermath like redness, soreness, and fainting. ("Any vaccine is associated with fainting," says Michael Lamacchia, M.D., an infectious disease specialist at St. Joseph's Children's Hospital in Paterson, New Jersey. As such, many docs want patients to stay in the office and rest for 15 to 20 minutes after a Gardasil shot.)

But thousands of women have also reported more worrisome issues, including crippling fatigue, paralysis, blindness, or autoimmune complications, and some have even died, according to CDC and FDA data.

it says

The FDA is not required to act in response to any side effect that occurs in fewer than one in 10,000 people.

Now you were the one that wrote cry me a river about 500 deaths dealing with measles and they have 70 deaths reported from this. I am not downplaying any ones death and as I said I don't know much about this vaccine but1 in 10,000 are the odds they report. If that vaccine was targeted at my gender I don't know if I would take it. It is relatively new. There is one I am watching and hoping it is ready for market soon. They are working on a malaria vaccine which I will be in line for if it becomes available and I hope the odds are as good as the one in question. As for the other claims for side affects well lets just say I do not trust human nature to lie for their possible monetary benefit.

Oh and I assure you I could never make a living off of typing this stuff if you know a place I could well send me the info as long as it is what I already believe I am fine with a paycheck. Unfortunately I think it is the other side of the fence that has the market cornered in spreading diss info but they do it on their own websites made to look like actual news sites. I would never stoop so low.

Out of all of the deaths reported to VAERS after HPV vaccine had been given, not one of them has been attributed to the vaccine.
In fact, the HPV vaccine has no more side effects than any other vaccine so is therefore pretty safe.
From 2006 to 2013 there were around 57 million doses given and 22,000 VAERS reports.
92% of those reports were classed as non-serious and the remainder were one of the following,headache, nausea, vomiting, fatigue, dizziness, syncope, and generalised weakness.
www.snopes.com...

(Ok, Snopes isn't the greatest site to get the info from but it does provide links verifying what it says)

Pardon?
www.snopes.com...
(Ok, Snopes isn't the greatest site to get the info from but it does provide links verifying what it says)

No. No. No. No. No!!! Don't sell yourself short on this one. Did you watch the video at that link?

Go look up the credentials of "The Director" for The Health Sciences Institute (Dedicated to uncovering and researching the most urgent advances in modern underground medicine). I'll see you in about 20 minutes after you've recovered from laughing so hard you nearly choke to death.

Every time I go look at who these 'medical authorities' are ... who are duping people into believing utter nonsense ... I shudder.

Pardon?

UxoriousMagnus

Pardon?

UxoriousMagnus
reply to post by Grimpachi

 

Uhhh....the MMR vaccine is the most insane thing you could put in your body. What is the cost of getting the Measles?....how about what is the cost of getting Autism? You can say all you want that the MMR vaccine isn't causing autism but then you would be a blind fool. The pharma companies are starting to admit it.....the courts are starting to admit it.....when is the dumb'ed down public going to admit it?

Plus you say that you were in the military and had tons of shots and look how great you are?......then you tell us you are on some pretty heavy anti-psychotics ....... uh....yeah...

edit on 10-1-2014 by UxoriousMagnus because: (no reason given)

Why is it "the most insane thing you can put in your body"?



It doesn't matter what I say or anyone SAYS about the MMR causing autism, it's what all of the studies say which is important.
And every single one of them says there is no correlation.
What's the cost of getting measles?
Let's see, meningitis, pneumonia, blindness etc etc.
Why did autism rates still increase when they stopped giving the MMR in Japan?
Why was autism on the increase before the MMR was released?

Can you point out where the pharma companies (or anyone else in medicine) is pointing out that MMR causes autism as that's news to me.
As for the courts saying there are...I think that if you look into them properly you'll find they didn't say they caused autism at all. You have to take time to read the official court transcript though rather than just regurgitate it from an anti-vax site.
Think about it, would you let a lawyer diagnose an illness you had?
Thought not.

..................
no....your right....the pharma companies are looking out for me and my family. They have never done anything unethical and well......thanks for setting me straight there....

Instead of just regurgitating the standard conspiracy mantra, you made statements which I've questioned.
Do yourself some justice by answering them.

...................................................
I am assuming you can read right? Try anything by Dr. Len Horowitz also try this link: childhealthsafety.wordpress.com...

and before you say....oh it's just another anti-vaccine site....actually "read"

Grimpachi
reply to post by SecTownKid

 

All I can tell you is the military is a pretty big swath of population that gets fully inoculated but has one of the best health records.

Countries and individuals in "sun-rich" environments have extremely low rates of ALL types of the flu. Furthermore the military by in large requires physical fitness which is also strongly correlated with reduced rates of ALL types disease.

The vaccines they receive and their health records are extremely weakly correlated. There are a few exceptions however those are usually when traveling to areas like India where they tend to opt for the pills rather than a inoculation shots.

Gulf War syndrome
en.wikipedia.org...

Report links vaccines to Gulf war syndrome
www.theguardian.com...

A senior army doctor has provided the first official support for claims that the cocktail of vaccines given to soldiers before the 1991 war in Iraq probably caused illnesses that became known as Gulf war syndrome, it was reported today.

For 13 years, the MoD has denied that vaccines could be blamed for the illnesses. Independent research has also failed to find conclusive proof of a common link between the vaccines and a Gulf war-related syndrome.

Just to cover this before people go off the deep end with it.

Individual vaccinations with proper dosage are shown to be highly effective, however tests on how these cocktails affect children at very young ages are scant.

National Vaccine Information Center
www.nvic.org...

Every vaccine, like every drug, carries an inherent risk of injury or death and some individuals will be genetically or biologically more vulnerable to vaccine reactions than other individuals. All vaccination campaigns result in casualties and, therefore, benefits and risks must be carefully assessed before implementation, especially in the absence of a proven attack. Every precaution must be taken to minimize vaccine casualties while protecting the informed consent rights of all citizens.

Vaccines can be very safe and helpful, however it is the overzealous inoculation schedules and improper dosing which causes most of the negative side effects. Then there are those genetically predisposed to be negatively affected by the ingredients of the vaccine which are, to quote Rumsfeld the pusher of the sugar substitute known to denature into formaldehyde, the "unknown unknowns."

DID YOU FORGET ABOUT BAYER AIDS INFECTED INJECTION PRODUCTS?
----------------NOT A VACCINE---------------


Please do go on and tell us how the FDA and drug companies care so much about their fellow human.


Folks if you are getting a vaccination make sure you actually discuss its manufacturer with your doctor and go over the literature, DOCTORS APPRECIATE THIS, to keep yourself informed and involved in your own health.

-FBB


PS
Here is another link to a RENSE article which does provide information on more legitimate accusations against vaccination campaigns if folks are interested; ---please stay critical of the entire subject---

rense.com...

The results of the WHO-Rockefeller project were put into mass application on human guinea pigs in the early 1990's. The WHO oversaw massive vaccination campaigns against tetanus in Nicaragua, Mexico and the Philippines. Comite Pro Vida de Mexico, a Roman Catholic lay organization, became suspicious of the motives behind the WHO program and decided to test numerous vials of the vaccine and found them to contain human Chorionic Gonadotrophin, or hCG. That was a curious component for a vaccine designed to protect people against lock-jaw arising from infection with rusty nail wounds or other contact with certain bacteria found in soil. The tetanus disease was indeed, also rather rare. It was also curious because hCG was a natural hormone needed to maintain a pregnancy. However, when combined with a tetanus toxoid carrier, it stimulated formation of antibodies against hCG, rendering a woman incapable of maintaining a pregnancy, a form of concealed abortion. Similar reports of vaccines laced with hCG hormones came from the Philippines and Nicaragua.

This would be in the sterilization by vaccine department I suppose

Here are a few more articles which outline some of the serious misconceptions concerning vaccines and what they actually "protect" against.

CDC Not Legally Required to Tell the Truth About Anything, Including Vaccines
intellihub.com...

The CDC is perhaps the most malicious in their information-twisting. Consider this recent upheaval about flu vaccinations. According to Dr. Peter Doshi in a British Medical Journal article review (BMJ 2013; 346:f3037):

“. . .perhaps the cleverest aspect of the influenza marketing strategy surrounds the claim that ‘flu’ and ‘influenza’ are the same. The distinction seems subtle, and purely semantic. But general lack of awareness of the difference might be the primary reason few people realize that even the ideal influenza vaccine, matched perfectly to circulating strains of wild influenza and capable of stopping all influenza viruses, can only deal with a small part of the ‘flu’ problem because most ‘flu’ appears to have nothing to do with influenza. Every year, hundreds of thousands of respiratory specimens are tested across the US. Of those tested, on average 16% are found to be influenza positive.”

So – if you didn’t catch the significance of that – while the CDC is reporting flu outbreaks across the country and thus our need for vaccines, only a flu-virus would require a vaccine, and only a small percentage of ‘flu’ is actually ‘flu.’ Additionally, there are only a few strains of any particular flu virus in any vaccine created seasonally and there are hundreds of flu viruses.

Here is a link to the BMJ article itself;
Influenza: marketing vaccine by marketing disease
www.bmj.com...

OP also mentioned the HPV vaccines, as if HPV was a single disease . . . it is an amalgamation of different viruses that act in a similar manner.

Lead Developer for HPV Vaccine Admits it is Useless, Likely Dangerous
tv.naturalsociety.com...

Back in 2009, Dr. Diane Harper, admitted that the vaccines were likely more dangerous than the disease they were trying to prevent, that is, until Big Pharma companies persuaded her to change her tune. Dr. Harper is a practicing OBGYN, and she has said that “approximately 70% of women who contract HPV are going to clear that all by themselves within the first year, with no help from anyone,” which includes the interference of GlaxoSmithKline and Merck & Co.

Furthermore, within 2-years, she says that 90% of those infections are going to clear all by themselves.

Only 10% of HPV cases progress into a pre-cancerous lesion. While that is still not good news for women who develop this possibility for cancer, the vaccines themselves are likely more harmful than helpful.

Now understand that what I am pointing out is the MARKETING OF DISEASE as being a major culprit behind most of the problems faced in the vaccination market. The manufacturers drum up FEAR and insinuate SHAME to increase sales.

prn.fm...

In an interview with Dr. Thomas Jefferson, coordinator for the Cochrane Vaccine Field in Rome, Italy, he stated that in 2009 he conducted a thorough review of 217 published studies on flu vaccines and found only 5% reliable. In other words, 95% of published flu vaccine studies are flawed and their conclusions should be dismissed. This is not a great surprise; even CDC officials were forced to confess that “influenza vaccines are still among the least effective immunizing agents available, and this seems to be particularly true for elderly recipients.”[1] Dr. Anthony Morris, a distinguished virologist and a former Chief Vaccine Office at the FDA, found “there is no evidence that any influenza vaccine thus far developed is effective in preventing or mitigating any attack of influenza.’ Dr. Morris stated, “The producers of these vaccines know they are worthless, but they go on selling them anyway.”

. . . .

In 2012, the National Coalition of Organized Women received documents with statistics based upon the government’s Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) covering the 2009 and 2010 flu season. The CDC’s own vaccine injury data collection revealed a 4,250% increase in fetal deaths after the flu shot. The VAERS statistics were confirmed later by Dr. Gary Goldman and published in the Human and Environmental Toxicology Journal showing that the HINI swine flu vaccine did in fact cause a 4,250% rise in spontaneous abortions.

The CDC has refused to provide further information under a Freedom of Information Act filing until after a three year period, a direct violation of FIOA law. When confronted and queried about the rise in fetal deaths among vaccinated pregnant mothers, the CDC’s Dr. Shimabkuru confirmed the agency knew of this increase.[8]

Personally I think vaccinations properly administered for REAL threats like polio had their place, but today many vaccination programs are truly unnecessary and the propaganda associated with them is laughable.

Unless you hold some form of religious or spiritual belief then you must accept that 100% of the human population to ever have existed is dead and 100% of the future population will, most likely, also die. To say that vaccinations are preventing deaths is absurd, the reality is they are potentially prolonging life.

Note that most of these stories are from the same outlet, the Natural Society, and you are encouraged to investigate their motives and connections to validate or refute what they present.

Also people should investigate just WHO is actually creating these treatments and what they are personally involved with in their free time. There are many occasions where people in these fields 'joke' about how 'overpopulation' is a serious threat and billions of people should be done away with. For example; (again from this Natural Society)

Vaccine Inventor & Genetic Engineer Jokes About Depopulation & Biological Warfare
tv.naturalsociety.com...

Edible vaccine supporter and head of the Biodesign Institute for Infectious Diseases and Vaccinology, Dr. Charles Arntzen has recently responded to questions about the issue of overpopulation with the following sardonic remarks, “Has anybody seen Contagion? That’s the answer! Go out and use genetic engineering to create a better virus [to wipe out the population]“.

As I stated previously folks, get involved with your own healthcare.

Learn about the diseases and about how proper studies are carried out as this is the primary vehicle for disinformation and propaganda from ALL sides of the aisle.

-FBB

"As I stated previously folks, get involved with your own healthcare.
Learn about the diseases and about how proper studies are carried out as this is the primary vehicle for disinformation and propaganda from ALL sides of the aisle. "


But that might take effort beyond reading a brochure. Are you kidding me. My self entitled ass is far too busy for that guff.


I just want to quote how much freedom of choice I have. And accuse people of being Nazis ( without acknowledging the "all for one and one for all" mentality that won the war of course) .

Oh yea, And I also want the right to label all medical pioneers as sell outs. Because it would just kill me to admit someone was smarter than me about my own body.

To educate myself so I can distinguish essential, social responsibility jabs from non essential money making vacs seems like a lot of work.


I just want to be told what to think. I mean I dont want to be told what to think......... I am confused.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


All of that and not a single bit addressing the subject of the thread. When You said the OP also mentions (insert comment from subsequent off topic posts) that makes it sound as if it was part of the Origiating Post. Yes I know semantics but important to distinguish none the less.

If I chased every rabbit you guys sen running down a different path. I think that is a common tactic to derail.

Really trying to insinuate military health with "sun rich environments" sI spent more time than I care to remember freezing my pututy off. Quoting an article on gulf war syndrome to vaccines: third sentence in article states " Independent research has also failed to find conclusive proof of a common link between the vaccines and a Gulf war-related syndrome." As a vet of that era I will say that has more to do with PTSD than anything and the people I see at VA that have it. The title of the article from Rense "Bill Gates On 'Vaccines To Reduce Population'" I mean good lord how many times is that quote taken out of context and if you honestly haven't come to understand what he was talking about the what rock art thou from under. How sad is that I guess the anti vacc don't care about understanding things but that is no surprise.Horses mouth doesnt take a rocket scientist to use a search engine.

Any the rest is typical chasing rabbits and has nothing to do with the OP I wrote. Thedeadtruth pretty much sums it up and it is worth repeating.

"As I stated previously folks, get involved with your own healthcare.
Learn about the diseases and about how proper studies are carried out as this is the primary vehicle for disinformation and propaganda from ALL sides of the aisle. "

However back to the subject of the thread I think this bears repeating.

This OP is not trying to argue your FREEDOM as so many have repeatedly stated it is theirs to vaccinate or not. This is merely pointing out that that freedom can come at a cost. It doesn't just affect you there are consequences to you and those around you.

reply to post by Grimpachi


Are you seriously complaining about me responding to things you specifically stated in your thread?

Then you go on to complain about the title of an article and mention nothing about its contents? Also I mentioned the gulf war syndrome to keep people from trying to bring it up, you would know that if you read my entire post.

I doubt you would ever acknowledge the statements made concerning the effectiveness of certain vaccines anyways, but would rather complain about "rabbit holes" people are sending you down. Who cares if they come from doctors and FDA chiefs right?

Go back to Reddit with that crap.

-FBB

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


Yeah I will complain hat you didn't address a single thing from the OP and if you didn't understand the gist of what I was saying about your articles then I will make it simple. They were misleading garbage not worth chasing.

Serriously the article "Bill Gates On 'Vaccines To Reduce Population'" is enough to see the quality of your research.

Run along little rabbit I am not going to chase everytime you hop in a different direction.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


It's true that the influenza vaccine is largely a guessing game. Scientists pretty much have to predict a year beforehand what the major strains of the next year will be. That said, unless you've had a severe reaction to the flu vaccine there is no reason not to receive it. Despite the popular claim that the flu vaccine causes the flu, this simply isn't true. The height of flu season occurs months after most people have received the flu shot. So what reason is there not to get it if the only side effect you can most likely expect is a sore arm for a day or two?