Clearing the air on homosexuality (from a Christian perspective)

reply to post by schadenfreude

First, i'm not a sister.

Offended are you? I'm not your "brother"!

Jesus does not "HAVE" a relationship with sinners, period, UNTIL they come to Him in the first place.

Really, Mr Christian know it all?

And Jesus answered and said to them, "It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. 32"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

So why should HE hold them accountable for higher points of understanding/obedience "while they're still sinners"?

Ah, But, your Jesus is perfectly happy to send them to eternal torture in Hell for not understanding him and his finer points?

Me: Oh so, only Christians are capable of thought crimes now?

You: Irrelevant, already addressed.

Really? How so? Are Christian sins different than non-Christian sins? Non Christians can't have thought crimes? We want equality!

What you call cherry-picking, I call reading comprehension.

Yeah? I still call it cherry picking with extreme prejudice.

I think ATS should make a rule about these threads... Sooo tired of seeing Christians hating on gays

Hypocrites...

Your book says all sin is death... So you Christians are no better in the eyes of God then a homosexual is...

In fact you're worse off because you choose to judge them... and its not your place

pathetic...

reply to post by iRoyalty


I agree gurl, i wasn't attempting to "stop" anyone from saying anything, i believe anyone owning what they believe in and speaking their views, even if it is unpopular as long as you stand by it and accept the criticism it may garner than speak it gurl! be loud and be proud!


the only thing i can't understand is hatefulness, and the Original Topic was not centered on hatefulness, nor was i claiming it was,

reply to post by ketsuko



I agree, many get placed into a Group based on the Public Image of said Group. it's easier to say "All X hate X" then to discover for yourself, likewise once a "Group" gets big enough it seems as if it becomes the "Spokesperson" for everyone involved. i have been on the hateful end of Religion, and i have been on the end where people are highly religious and show no hate towards anyone based on Sexuality.

Now I'm just one of those progressive evil heathen Catholics, but it's pretty damn simple from where I sit....regardless of scripture and regardless of the Churches "official stance" on the issue of homosexuality.

God is Omniscient, God is Omnipresent. He is the Divine Creator of ALL things, and is therefore present in all things....and people. If we look for Divinity in ALL of creation, we shall find it. It is only when we set up human rules and limitations to Gods Manifestations that we perceive separation from the Divine.

Who the hell are we, as Christians, to tell God that "he messed up" or that parts of His Creation that don't suit our personal sensibilities are evil, sinful, this that or the other? That's human arrogance speaking - placing limitations on which parts of Creation are in Order and which aren't.

Personally, in all the reading and reflection I've done over the course of my lifetime, I can't find any justification behind the condemnation of homosexuals - REGARDLESS of what is written in the Old Testament (which isn't even relevant if we are to take the New Testament into account, for Christ said NOTHING on the issue of homosexuality whatsoever).

Quite honestly, I think the Old Testament disparaging of homosexual behavior was a cautionary addition to dissuade brutish men of the ancient world who would use male rape as a submission tactic from continuing their behavior under the threat of Divine Persecution.

Christ instructed us to love our neighbors as ourselves....and that's pretty straightforward.

But what do I know. I'm just a heathen in the eyes of many anyway.

*two cents*

reply to post by GENERAL EYES


are you allowed to applaud yourself?

Well said

reply to post by GENERAL EYES


Church!

*sometimes one word says more than a million*

reply to post by schadenfreude

You'll also be pleased to know that I will not be including anything from Leviticus. If you wish to use strawman arguments about stoning, type of clothing used, etc, again don't expect a response from yours truly. That was a different time and I am not Jewish!

I don't understand why you would say this then go on to say this:

We, (Christians) do NOT follow our own book! We do not believe in the severity of the consequences of our own book, ergo, we don't believe in the one that WROTE the book! You can NOT pick & choose what to follow! It is either all or nothing.

Didn't god supposedly write or at least inspire all of the bible, OT and NT both? So if you can't pick and choose what to follow, why are you doing that exact thing with the OT teachings?

If OT teachings don't apply anymore because it was a "different time" when it was written then how can you be so sure NT teachings are still valid? After all, it was a "different time" when the NT was written.

If you choose to ignore OT teachings you are already picking and choosing what part of god's word you follow, so why did you say it's "all or nothing"? Seems to me like you are a hypocrite because you don't even follow your own beliefs.

Either homosexuals should be killed like the OT says or nothing in the bible is true, you said so yourself. Follow your own rules why don't you!

flammadraco
Original Text from the King James Bible

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves . . . shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

"nor effeminate" translated in verse 9 from Greek to the King James Bible is quite a broad word "malakoi" and it literally means "soft". So Paul was referring to "soft people" will not inherit the kingdom of God" 

I love "Cafeteria Christians"

Not sure what you mean by Cafeteria Christian, but arsenokoitēs is in 1 Cor 6:9, and means homosexual. Same word in 1 Tim 1:10.

Akragon
I think ATS should make a rule about these threads... Sooo tired of seeing Christians hating on gays

Hypocrites...

Your book says all sin is death... So you Christians are no better in the eyes of God then a homosexual is...

In fact you're worse off because you choose to judge them... and its not your place

pathetic...

Pretty sure that was part of the point of the OP. The Christian hate has made people blind to it. Hilarious one group says "Don't hate me! I hate you!"

So what are you staying? You're a homo or something?

reply to post by spartacus699


We are all Homo's...homo-sapiens.

reply to post by Akragon


Well said, so many threads on gays on ATS lately, I thought it was a conspiracy site, not a Christian site with hang ups about what two consenting adults do in private.

I love the way these threads say gays have an "Agenda". Do all gays meet up each week for meetings on what to do next? What a lot of nonsense, sounds as silly as saying the "Straight Agenda", it doesn't exist. Yes there are groups like Stonewall etc, but whilst we have threads such as these, groups such as Stonewall will always be needed to lobby for equality.

As said before by someone in this thread, a true Christian should not judge anyone.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


There was no word for homosexual when this text was written, so please do inform us where you heard or read this.

flammadraco
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

There was no word for homosexual when this text was written, so please do inform us where you heard or read this.

I guess that is exactly why arsenokoitēs is a new word. There was really no word for it, so Paul created one.

Look up arsenos. Look up koiten. What do you think the meaning of arsenokoitēs is.

If the desert religions accept that God made man in his own image then one has to accept the many different sides of God and man. Hinduism demonstrates man's and God's many sides on its temples - and they are something spectacular to see because they open one's eyes to how varied 'image' can be.

According to my religious teaching when I was a kid God made everything so when one doesn't like something God-made its bedevilled.

The sheer hypocrisy of these religions and their stance on homosexuality is because married couples are not only easier to control and hopefully provide their next generation of meal tickets for the priesthoods etc, but property and wealth is not so easy to acquire from a man who is 'outside' the norm. So its easier to persuade the public to hate homosexuality and do the condoning in line with the priesthood. Many of the priesthood are gay because its been the best place to hide and have a good life for centuries. Lets face it haven't we burned more witches than homosexual befrocked priests?

schadenfreude
Matt. 19:3-6 3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Jesus was addressing a direct question about divorce. He said nothing about homosexuality in his response. His response was directly to the topic ... divorce between a man and a woman. That's it.

Other scripture quotes do indeed say that acts of homosexuality are against God's law. (not being homosexual .. but the acts themselves). None of those quotes are quoting Jesus but instead are quoting those people who claim to know what God wants. Maybe they do. Maybe they do not. But it's impossible to say that Jesus was addressing homosexuality in his response that you quoted.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Well, the verse in question does not specifically pertain to homosexuality, but the wording can indeed infer marriage (and by extension sexual relations) are indeed limited to a man and a woman.

Mat 19:4
“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’

Mat 19:5
and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?

Clearly Jesus says God made man and woman, leaving no room for man and man marriage. If you believe you can make that verse work with homosexual marriage I am willing to listen.

ETA: I also think it's important to make the point it is homosexual ACTS that is the sin.

OptimusSubprime
I recognize homosexuality for what it is... a sinful act committed by someone who has turned so far from God that God gave them up to a reprobate(rejected) mind. Homosexuals hate God... plain and simple.

Um .. no. It's biology. It's linked epigentically. 'Plain and simple' (your words).
US News

75% of homosexual men showed childhood gender nonconformity, or CGN, in their toddler years. That's WAY before they were old enough to decide if they 'hated God' or not.
Boston Globe - Childhood Gender Nonconformity

I know plenty of homosexual Christians who love God.
I know plenty of homosexual Christians who are better Christians then 'bible' Christians.

You assume that the words of the bible are infallible and are actually from God.
More likely, those Romans and Leviticus quotes are just words from people who
claim to know what God wants, but instead interjected their own societal norms
and traditions .. which included homophobia.

OccamsRazor04
Well, the verse in question does not specifically pertain to homosexuality, but the wording can indeed infer marriage (and by extension sexual relations) are indeed limited to a man and a woman.

He didn't say that. He was directly addressing a question about divorce .. which would be between a man and a woman ... because gay marriage wasn't allowed back then. It's impossible to say that quote of Jesus somehow confirms that homosexuality is a sin. It doesn't address homosexuality at all. It's a stretch to say it does anything other than address divorce, which would have been between a man and a woman in that time period.

Be careful when 'inferring' when dealing with the words of Christ.

A lot of people 'infer' or 'translate' or 'interpret' Christs words ... and that's why we have so many Christian denominations .... Catholics and Episcopalians and Lutherans and Methodists and Baptists ... etc etc ... everyone says 'Jesus inferred' .... or they say 'Jesus words interpreted mean such and such' ... everyone sees something different.