Clearing the air on homosexuality (from a Christian perspective)

This thread is MAINLY addressed to my Christian brothers/sisters in Christ, that doesn't mean that I won't respond to non-Christians, but it DOES mean that if you address me & call me a bigot, you can just sod off right now b/c I WON'T be responding, period.

What I am trying to do today, (b/c frankly I'm sick of it) is to clear the air on the obvious hypocrisy of Christianity & their skewered views on homosexuality.

Let me be clear upfront, I do NOT support homosexuality, but not b/c of the reasons most Christians give. I will give detailed biblical reasons for this, as well the reason why the world (justly) condemns Christianity on this view, as well as WHY I AGREE WITH THEIR CONDEMNATION.

You'll also be pleased to know that I will not be including anything from Leviticus. If you wish to use strawman arguments about stoning, type of clothing used, etc, again don't expect a response from yours truly. That was a different time and I am not Jewish!

So let's get the standard verses from the NT out of the way, shall we? (Unless otherwise indicated, all verses are from the KJV, for those that care.)

Matt. 19:3-6 3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

This should end the silliness that Jesus never said anything about homosexuality; the idea of marriage has always been between a man & woman for the purposes of procreation within marriage. Yes, this passage specifically deals with divorce, but you can't have a divorce before you have a marriage, so can we please bury this strawman forever? It's insulting.

Rom. 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Here is clearly another NT verse saying that these acts are wrong, and not from the OT either.

"But that's by Paul, not Jesus, it doesn't count." It certainly does. 2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Now that I have slightly dealt with the inevitable detractors, allow me to address the brethern.

We're hypocrites, plain & simple. That is why the world condemns us & calls us names. (and rightly so) This is NOT "persecution", go to China or Iran or ANY M.E. country where your faith causes you your LIFE & your church gets burned down, THAT is persecution, this is not. Now, am I implying persecution doesn't exist here in the U.S.A? Obviously not, but your reaction is flawed & judgmental, BECAUSE YOU DO NOT JUDGE YOURSELF FIRST, nor do you even acknowledge your own sin. (Judgment begins at the house of God FIRST) 1 Pet. 4:17

For example; one of the verses that deals with homosexuality is 1 Cor. 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (ESV)

What's the order in these verses though? Unrighteous, (not saved, an obvious given) but then we have sexually immoral, idolators, & then adulterers, and THEN we have homosexuals! And if you dig around, you'll find fornicators in similar lists as well.

What's the point here Jeff, what are you driving at? My point should be simple to all, but to avoid confusion let me spell it out to you; CLEAN UP YOUR OWN HOUSE FIRST! This is why NO ONE outside the church, (and darn few even inside) don't take us seriously, b/c we don't hold OURSELVES accountable!

This is not persecution, this is hypocrisy, plain & simple.

Do I REALLY have to use google-fu to list the blatant examples of "preachers" cheating on their wives who STILL have a ministry? These are adulterers/fornicators! Yet they are STILL among us in fellowship! WHY?!

1st Cor. 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

We, (Christians) do NOT follow our own book! We do not believe in the severity of the consequences of our own book, ergo, we don't believe in the one that WROTE the book! You can NOT pick & choose what to follow! It is either all or nothing.

If you do not kick the pastors out of the congregation that do these things, SHUT UP. You have NO standing, and might as well put away your "Jesus shirt" for the rest of our sakes who DO try and live a Christian life.

...continued on post 2.

Non-practicing homosexuals have a right to attend church, just as non-practicing fornicators have a right to attend church. (Those shacked up but not married, that realize sex outside of marriage is wrong) It is not the desire that any should perish, but all come to repentance.

Homosexual feelings, IN AND OF THEMSELVES, are NOT wrong, it is ACTING upon those feelings that are wrong. Just as acting on healthy male/female urges are ALSO WRONG OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE.

There is where most of the anger & confusion sets in, most of you are so busy biting each other that you run around in circles without properly defining the problem you all are arguing about, however, you do NOT see that fornication/adultery is JUST AS BAD.

Neither of these will get you into heaven, period!

So take the mote out of your own eye, before you attempt to take the spec out of your brothers. Matt 7:3

I hope this helps someone. I did not make this thread to condemn anyone, but rather to clear the air about what should be the proper approach & why.

God bless.

reply to post by schadenfreude

Relating to your 1 Corinthians passage;
In my own 1 Corinthians series, i made a post concerning that passage which, I think, makes the same point that you are making;

DISRAELI
Our passage includes (vv9-10) a list of the kind of behaviour which means that people will not “inherit the kingdom of heaven”.
The OP has not highlighted the fact that the list includes homosexual behaviour.
However, we need to face up to this, and consider the point from two angles.

On the one hand, there is no denying that the statement is there, and consistent with the statements in Leviticus (ch18 v22 and ch20 v13) calling it an “abomination” that one man should lie with another man as with a woman.

On the other hand, there needs to be, at the same time, a sense of perspective.
This criticism of homosexual behaviour does not appear in isolation.
It is not even the first item on the list.
What is said about homosexual behaviour is also said about people who are adulterers, drunkards, and the just plain greedy.
Therefore nobody should be drawing any conclusions about the status of homosexuals from this chapter unless they are also drawing exactly the same conclusions about adulterers, drunkards, and the greedy.
All these people are in the same boat.

This was from the thread "The saint and his holiness".

In short, I agree with you.

reply to post by DISRAELI


That is exactly right; too many believe in "cheesy grace". You can not "say a prayer, (buy hell insurance) and then live like the devil. It doesn't work that way.

Now I am not saying that I don't believe in OSAS, I certainly do, but it only applies to those that produce FRUIT & have shown to have a genuine heart repentance of who they WERE & who they are NOW. (Big difference)

Jesus said "You would know them by their fruit." He also said "This is how the world would know you are my disciples, your love one for another."

If you don't produce fruit or have love for anyone other than yourself, you just might want to make sure you're a Christian in the first place.

Original Text from the King James Bible

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves . . . shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

"nor effeminate" translated in verse 9 from Greek to the King James Bible is quite a broad word "malakoi" and it literally means "soft". So Paul was referring to "soft people" will not inherit the kingdom of God" 

I love "Cafeteria Christians"

flammadraco
Original Text from the King James Bible

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves . . . shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

"nor effeminate" translated in verse 9 from Greek to the King James Bible is quite a broad word "malakoi" and it literally means "soft". So Paul was referring to "soft people" will not inherit the kingdom of God" 

I love "Cafeteria Christians"

And I love judgmental @#$%bags.

I chose the ESV b/c I didn't want to get into an exegesis debate on the word "effeminate". Too many ppl are "Strong Concordance "Scholars" and too few fail to see that ancient Greek and Modern English are NOT comparable. (duh!)

Do you understand greek present tense? Past present tense? deformative, definitive articles? I have a passing familiarity, but not enough to pass myself off as any kind of "scholar", which is why I did what I did.

Now if you would have ASKED me why I did that, I would have gladly told you, but since you called my a cafeteria christian, you got this reply instead.

reply to post by flammadraco

More to the point is the next word in the Greek, which literally means "lying in bed with a male".

reply to post by schadenfreude



You are using your religion as a right to bash the LGBT community. I don't care that you state your not against "homosexuals", you obvisley are as you would not have started this thread.

And my comment "Cafeteria Christian" is exactly what I mean. So many Christians are so well versed on Leviticus and yet not much on everything else. For example:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave  nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Why not read Matthew 8:5-13 where Jesus heals a Roman Centurion's gay lover. 

Or read Mathew 19

Verse 4,5: “Jesus answered, 'Have you not read that the One who made them at the beginning made them male and female,' and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh”? Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate'.”

Verse 11,12: “Jesus replied, 'Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it'.”

Being Gay is not a Choice
Being a Bigot is

Sorry but why does anyone care who I'm having sex with or more often not having sex?

The business is between me and the person I'm doing it to.

Happy New Year.

flammadraco
reply to post by schadenfreude

 

You are using your religion as a right to bash the LGBT community. I don't care that you state your not against "homosexuals", you obvisley are as you would not have started this thread.

(ME)No Einstein, if you had quelled your knee-jerk reaction, you would see i was actually rebuking MY brethern. (Which I stated in the Op.)

And my comment "Cafeteria Christian" is exactly what I mean. So many Christians are so well versed on Leviticus and yet not much on everything else. For example:

(ME)Which is why I didn't bring it up & even suggested it NOT be brought up! Can't you even READ?! Does nothing someone say matter if it so much as offends your delicate sensibilities?

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave  nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

(ME)This verse is taken out of context. It is talking about the fact that basically IN CHRIST, there is now no "special class". (as the Jews believed they were!)

Why not read Matthew 8:5-13 where Jesus heals a Roman Centurion's gay lover. 

(ME)Nothing in that passage suggests that he is gay, but even if he were, so what?

Or read Mathew 19

Verse 4,5: “Jesus answered, 'Have you not read that the One who made them at the beginning made them male and female,' and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh”? Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate'.”

Verse 11,12: “Jesus replied, 'Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it'.”

(ME)I quoted Matt 19 and you're gonna tell me to look at Matt 19. Genius!

Being Gay is not a Choice
Being a Bigot is

(ME)Since my Op was about having Christians STFU about homosexuals & clean up their own house FIRST, I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

I'll go one better and proclaim my belief that you are an agent provocateur.

Expect no further replies from me & please stop derailing my thread with your nonsense, thank you.

reply to post by schadenfreude


Just one question from a non-christian,

I understand WHY Christians disapprove of homosexuality, I just wonder why you bring it up so much? and openly let people know, on a regular basis that you don't like them.

Is it because you want them to change? To save their souls? It just confuses me because if someone is slothful or greedy, I will let them know I disapprove if asked. However it is their lives and their eternal souls, do they not get to choose what to do with it? I find that if you still treat people who do things you disapprove of (within the realms of sanity), they could actually be very beneficial to you and the community. I know lots of gay men who regularly give to charity, will do soup kitchens etc, would you deny them this because of something they do in their spare time?

(Not trying to be argumentative, this is a genuine inquiry)

reply to post by iRoyalty

Part of the point of the OP, and of my own post agreeing with it, was that the Christians who obsessively focus on homosexuality as the prime evil of society are themselves getting the wrong perspective on things, because Paul only saw it as one example, and not the primary example, of a number of faults.
The OP is trying to strike a balance.

iRoyalty
reply to post by schadenfreude

 

Just one question from a non-christian,

I understand WHY Christians disapprove of homosexuality, I just wonder why you bring it up so much? and openly let people know, on a regular basis that you don't like them.

Is it because you want them to change? To save their souls? It just confuses me because if someone is slothful or greedy, I will let them know I disapprove if asked. However it is their lives and their eternal souls, do they not get to choose what to do with it? I find that if you still treat people who do things you disapprove of (within the realms of sanity), they could actually be very beneficial to you and the community. I know lots of gay men who regularly give to charity, will do soup kitchens etc, would you deny them this because of something they do in their spare time?

(Not trying to be argumentative, this is a genuine inquiry)

I love genuine inquiries, thank you & allow me to respond in kind. (Although this may be a lil longer than you may have imagined as I want it to be a through answer.)

First off, from MY POV, (as I can't speak for all of Christendom) I think most Christians are afraid of the "Homosexual agenda" that is creeping into America. (I know how that sounds, so I'll expound on that) I PERSONALLY don't have a problem with "civil unions" for tax purposes, I also genuinely don't care what ANYONE does in the privacy of their own home. (As long as it's legal & consensual of course) It is not my place to judge outside of my faith. (I am required however, whether most believe it or not, TO JUDGE inside my faith.)

I do believe in "the agenda" however, sorry. I don't believe that most homosexuals have one, but I believe that the agenda does exist. Homosexuals like to equate their plight with black people, however, if you look at the statistics with prop 8 in CA, you'll notice it was the black vote that defeated it. (So obviously black people don't buy that argument either.) You can not change your melonin count, you can change however, your BEHAVIOR. (Notice I didn't say sexual preference) And it's this battle of PC vs the truth that we continually fight back & forth on, yet nothing is hardly defined correctly, succinctly, etc, so the battle continues.

The sad part, the GENUINE sad part, is that Christians like to say that the argument is about morality, but as my OP clearly shows, Christians don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to morality, period. And this is not surprising to those that study the bible more than on Sunday mornings. Observe.

Matt 24:12 says "The love of many will wax cold." That word for love there, is Agape. That love can ONLY be given/shown by God or those that follow Him. What that means, in essence, is that the love of Christians has grown cold. Most can't accept that, too bad. That's what the Greek says, and I believe the bible over any man. It also says in 1st Thess 2:2-3 that there will be a "great falling away" from the faith. Apostasy. This further corroborates Matt. 24.

I have no problem with gays helping in soup kitchens, that SHOULD be something Christians do all the time, but alas you now know why from my reasoning above. I apologize to that man if I could. I would "have a beer" and sit down & talk about it if I could. (Provided we could agree to disagree respectively) I have a friend that is shagged up with a girl, I've known him for over 10 years. He recently shacked up with a girl. Guess what? i no longer hang out with him. Why? The same reasons that I have a problem with PRACTICING homosexuals. B/c sex outside of marriage, is wrong. I don't care who does it or what sexes are involved.

Until Christians & their pastors make themselves more moral FIRST, they have no business judging ANYBODY, period. Which was the entire purpose of this thread. I know it may make me some enemies, and tick ppl off, but I won't apologize for showing biblical hypocrisy to those that SHOULD know better.

The short version? I think they mostly do it to feel better about THEMSELVES. There is a parable Jesus said in Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Doesn't THIS sound like what is happening now? You know it is, as do I, hence the purpose of my OP.

(Sorry of this was long-winded, I try to be succinct as possible on important points.)

God bless.

My perspective on this is that no one can say who will and won't be condemned. Only God has that right as the judge.

We can look and see for ourselves what things are sinful because we need to know what things we ought to avoid doing and we need to be able to judge how to act rightly for ourselves.

Homosexual sex is a sin the same way that out of wedlock sex is a sin, adultery is sin, divorce without narrow circumstances spoken of by Jesus is a sin ... these things we need to beg forgiveness for, and there are very, very few of us who are entirely blameless of at least one of these. In this case, sexual sins are sexual sins.

No, I don't believe in homosexual marriage because I don't believe that God blesses a marriage based in sin, but neither does He bless a union where one or both partners is from an unjustified divorce, either. That union is also founded in sin, adultery, strictly speaking. Too many have lost sight of that.

I seem to be on your check list of 'Anti'

Gay, Effeminate, Drag Queen, non religious

Thank you for stating your views, it is your right to believe what your faith dictates, like it is my right to coexist in a world with you equally.

but if i may, do you feel your religion gives you an excuse to say hateful things to people and claim it as the true words of Jesus?

i mean, you are basing your views on a belief, a belief that not everyone agrees with, and one which we can find proof that it is not real, just as you can come up with proof that it is real.

so again, you have the right to say whatever you want about people, to believe whatever you want about people, because in the end it can never dictate the laws that we both live under.

one thing i will never understand is why people feel the need to be hateful, why do i need to be called an abomination? why do i need to be told god hates us? why do i need to be told that i may burn in "Hell" or i have a sickness etc.


if you want to voice your beliefs again your right, but can't it be done in a non-hateful way? tell me your faith dictates what you can and can't believe in, tell me you are anti-gay or not, but we can coexist

reply to post by Darth_Prime


Where did any of us say that God hates you?

I think we all of us said you were a sinner exactly like we are. In other words, we're equal. I thought you wanted equality.

reply to post by schadenfreude

Non-practicing homosexuals have a right to attend church, just as non-practicing fornicators have a right to attend church. (Those shacked up but not married, that realize sex outside of marriage is wrong) It is not the desire that any should perish, but all come to repentance.

So only non-practicing sinners are allowed in church?

Homosexual feelings, IN AND OF THEMSELVES, are NOT wrong, it is ACTING upon those feelings that are wrong.

Erm, that's not what Jesus said:

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jesus said even thoughts are sinful.

reply to post by windword


Or maybe he was warning you against pornography.

reply to post by ketsuko


Not me. Personally, I've never seen the appeal!

reply to post by windword


Me either, but I look at this one logically. It's very rare that one sin comes unconnected or isolated. Usually it leads you into more trouble. If you are busy lusting after the unattainable you are soon coveting and greedy, it leads you to be unsatisfied with what you have which can hurt your partner and your relationship with him or her. I'll bet a lot of today's divorces have their roots in this one.