Why is there no real proof of Jesus existing outside of biblical references?

It is very unlikely that Jesus actually existed because as the Op has said there is no real evidence outside Biblical documentation.

And who wrote the Bible? Most of it was written by the Romans. And they were right into their Pagan belief systems and symbols. It was the Emperor Constantine in AD 314 who stole all the Pagan symbols and artifacts and declared them to be Christian. Like the cross with the circle in it. It's not a symbol of the crucifixion of Jesus. It's a Sun Symbol!

He was a Solar Messiah. His origins are Pagan! He wasn't the Son of God. He was the 'Sun Of God'.

And look at all the stories in the Bible. They are myths and Legends from other cultures and belief's. The Story of Moses for example was originally Syrian.

Even though I'm not a big fan of Zeitgeist I can see a lot of truth in what Jesus actually was. The Sun. It all makes sense when you think of Jesus as being the Sun but it makes no sense when you think of him as being a man.

Nice wee story but no truth to it!

stevcolx
It is very unlikely that Jesus actually existed because as the Op has said there is no real evidence outside Biblical documentation.

And who wrote the Bible? Most of it was written by the Romans. And they were right into their Pagan belief systems and symbols. It was the Emperor Constantine in AD 314 who stole all the Pagan symbols and artifacts and declared them to be Christian. Like the cross with the circle in it. It's not a symbol of the crucifixion of Jesus. It's a Sun Symbol!

Who wrote the bible? That you have to ask and that you say the Romans wrote most of it shows that you have been exposed to very little actual research on the matter.

The conclusion that Jesus couldn't have existed because there is no real evidence outside of biblical documentation presupposes that truth only comes from outside observation, 3rd and 4th party conclusions and other secondary sources. Which means you can toss about 90% of history about anything right out the window. Its like saying that owning a Ford doesn't prove Henry Ford actually existed. That's something an ignoramus would say even though its very true from its very limited perspective.

reply to post by stevcolx


I can understand how you see it this way. After all it's our history. Religions spinning off an offspring so to speak.

For me though, with all of that you posted in mind, there is still a debate as to whether he was divine or not. You think he never existed and you are not alone.

Jesus ( for me) symbolize's the light and love of the conscious mind. Sun/Son/light

The "Jesus" concept is no doubt a part of our his-story and it seems that we all have this in common as being's in a material world. We all have our crosses ( burdens) to carry and we all have this burden in our his-story as well. All written words carry the same theme. They are his-story. This is where the light of love is... the Sun/Son of the Most High.

We really have no idea what "religion" he taught or believed in ( if he did ), however the message that is written as coming from him has left a profound impact on our society for thousands of years.

His message was given orally before Abraham/Sumerians as he states in his-story. That's how I see it anyway.

ETA: I wanted to add text that confirms my thinking above and it's not out of thin air that I come to the conclusion I do. Here below is just one frame of reference, although I can find plenty.

During the first two centuries of the Christian era, two competing religions that shared many similarities flourished in the Greco-Roman world: Christianity and Mithraism. For a time, the followers of Mithra outnumbered those of Christ, and it was not until the third century AD that Christianity clearly emerged as the dominant religion of the declining Roman empire.

Mithraism had its origins in the Zoroastrian religion of the ancient Aryan peoples of Persia (Iran) and India, which honored Mithra as a god. By the fifth century BC, Mithra had become the principal Persian deity. Closely associated with the sun, he was worshiped as the god of light and wisdom.

vho.org...

So, we know from historians that Zoroastrianism was spun into Christianity along with other religions. There was a need for one controlling belief for the society.

There are some who say that Zen is the same soul as Jesus. The same soul aspect can be considered when studying Melchizedek too.

Matthew's ( Matthew, 2) story of the Magi confirms this for me. The Zoroastrian theological system of monotheism, the Messiah, the dualistic struggle between good and evil, light and darkness, angels and demons, heaven and hell, God and Satan, the Last Judgement and the Resurrection of the Dead sounds a lot like Christianity.

I cannot believe after reading all the replies. I mean honestly reading all the replies one can come out saying that Jesus never existed.

One can contest his miracles or divinity, but his existence is undeniable. He walked this earth and his short time here made such a difference that people believe in him till this day.

Thousands of years later, do people even understand how amazing that is? Millions of people believe in him, MILLIONS till today. He lived 33 years and he is still making ripples in the water thousands of years later. Still touching lives, still relevant.

It takes more than rational thinking to see and hear what is at hand here. You must try to understand with the neurons in your heart and not with the neurons in your brain. Does Jesus ever try to appeal to you with knowledge? With great secrets of the universe? No, he is all about being a bright light, a soul with a heart, to recognize that we must know ourselves and to keep our house (body) in order for us to understand what is at stake here.

The thing of it "Might be"...

Jesus as many of you are attempting to define him or trinity figure of CHRIST Yashaya/Yeheshua-Savior/Angel of Salvation has been present since the beginning of the world.
Time is the ally of deceit and we live in a world PRESENTLY filled with innumerable levels of deceit and deception.
This deception according to our "Old Testament" (The origins of which are in all likelihood stories handed down since the beginning of the world-from passed down verbally up until writing helped to invent languages.)
IF** I were to tell you an intricate story that if written would be any number of pages in length but told you this story and you did not write about it until years later- odds are you would misinterpret what I had said and in situations that allow- introduced new elements. "Personalizing" it so to speak.

The "Christ" or "1/3 of the Trinity of God" is much like our own universe.
It is the Physical that can be seen and experienced.
Father-Son-Holy Spirit
Space-Matter-Time

All working in unison.
It is plain to see (from a recent post the picture of Earth and the Moon from Mars) that we are for lack of a better term as it were: In Purgatory. We have yet to put a HUMAN on another planet and we are still years away from doing so. We have only recently been able to reach the edge of our OWN Solar System after years and years.
There is no hope for ANY of us to ever get our wings- spread them and enjoy the Heavens

I've never quite understood why people are so bent on denying any form of Intelligence or Divine intelligence within the Universe. There is no way we are alone and the "Concept" of Christ is if nothing- PERHAPS an effort by (God/Big Bang/Singularity) to connect and communicate with its creation.

To DENY this is to DENY yourself. (Please-No RELIGION MEANT OR NEEDED)

Religion to GOD or (a) God- is not DEFINED by a belief in a higher power or diety- it is the SOURCE
One could say that as carefully as we have been hidden in our universe and perfectly placed to prosper and grow as a civilization is evidence of some form of intelligence and not blind luck. This is ignorant talk- Even our own bafoon of a President hit this nail on the head with his "you didn't build that" because while MANY MANY people are incredibly successful as individuals- it still most likely took hard work and the right breaks at the right time.

For us to deny our Creator or A CREATOR (OF SOME/YOU NAME IT KIND) is to DENY our own existence in which what we are experiencing would be nothing more than a dream. PERHAPS IT IS?

The Universality of what Christ taught (Jesus WAS JUST A MAN until BAPTIZED by JOHN) The Spirit of Christ is the same one present in Creation- even from the big bang. The First and the Last. He is.
Truth is ANY MAN can come to know Christ and most do whether knowingly or unknowingly.
The only way you can see or understand GOD the FATHER is through Christ. You cannot understand the depth of our existence until you admit just how small and pointless you really are.

Christians for centuries along with the willing help of all who oppose the teachings of Christ have worked tirelessly including adding pagan traditions (idol worship) into what they describe as "Christianity"
Truth be told. THERE ARE NO AND IS NO SUCH THING AS CHRISTIANS. These people are giving themselves titles that their ACTIONS DO NOT EARN.

If you are TRULY a BELIEVER in Christ- then you are merely a DISCIPLE of CHRIST.

TRUE RELIGION will commence upon the return to this world of some otherworldly/supernatural form of substance or being. It is a WAY of life. Only meant to be taught- not forced. Truth is that all people will reach salvation at different times and in different ways. Christ is always there to guide us.

I've said before and I wholeheartedly believe it. There are more Atheists who will receive the blessings of The Father and The Son and The Spirit than "Christians" "Muslims" "Jews"

Christ was the God who let the israelites through the desert. He is- was not and yet will be again.

What Christ spoke of THROUGH Christ was meant to be clouded and contested and argued over and fought over. Because without much struggle nothing can truly be gained.

Satan works in TANDEM with God- as the Gospel of Bartholemew inscribes- He is the tester- and unfortunately many people DESPITE having the answers on the board- choose to form their own based upon THIS world instead of what we DO NOT KNOW about the Heavens (Universe).

We will never and can never explore this alone- we must do it together- those who refuse will be left behind.

Atheists and Science Minded Folks have already opened their minds to the possibility of life ON different planets or throughout the Universe. This is a stronger belief in a higher intelligence/power than pew sitting nimrods who think and still believe that God takes attendance.

I guess that is why Christ said- when you pray do not do so in the streets for i tell you the person that does has received his reward in FULL (He has been seen praying and considers this vital to his worship-that he be seen by man) Instead pray away from prying eyes because the Creator/Big Bang/Singularity knows you and sees you doing so.

Yet a lot of self-proclaimed Christians fall hook-line and sinker into this Commercialized version of Jesus.
Accept Jesus as your savior and you will go to heaven. Buy into our Church and receive salvation.

He came first to destroy the idolatry and sacrifices that had stemmed off from the ORIGINAL WORD OF GOD and next he will come to?.... DESTROY THE CHURCH.

Atheists (like my former self) are more inclined to be "Saved" because they see something or nothing and yet do not know what it is or is not. Therefore Christ can intervene when necessary and show them the way to know on their OWN. Most Christians are so confident in their knowledge that not only do they refuse to acknowledge that they celebrate Pagan traditions they also do not truly believe in God. You speak to any of them about being influenced by God or Christ or experiencing a REAL ReBirth and not just through baptism and they have no true faith or belief- they look at you as if you just told them you bought 200 acres of ocean front property in Idaho.

While an atheist might deny this as well it is because they have not yet and may not meet their Creator until later in life or at the very end BUT THEY LEGITIMATELY MEET HIM BECAUSE THEY ARE WANTING HIM TO INTRODUCE HIMSELF_SUBCONSCIOUSLY THEY ARE LOOKING FOR HIM whether exploring the stars or searching for the beginning of the world and universe- as someone who floats his or her "Christianity" denies this (That he is the GOD OF THE LIVING AND CAN INFLUENCE WHOEVER WHENEVER EVEN NOW) they are denying the God they are supposed to Worship/Believe in which is blasphemy. The Conundrum is that the same problem seems to exist for BOTH Jews AND Christians. They BOTH deny THEIR GOD. While one denies flat out that he is God in human form altogether- the other denies his true divinity and commandments in their works. The rest Atheists/Non-Believers have been shown the Law as if perhaps it were a commercial- some have been turned by the horrible acts of those who consider themselves Believers and will be reclaimed by Christ.

The Church- Much like the Establishment does more to HARM and DESTROY human nature- than it ever has to help it.

Money over Freedom- You think you're free? Try going somewhere without money.

signalfire

That this belief system is holding society back as a whole has never been more obvious.

Most of that post was really not worthy of notice at all, much less a response, but this particular sentence stuck out and piqued my curiosity. What is it that you think "this belief system" is "holding society back" FROM? I mean, if something is holding ME back from something else, then I wanna know what it is that is going to sink it's fangs into me and eat me if that restraint is removed and I'm no longer being held back...

Likewise, what is it that you think "this belief system" is saving society from, or what is it you think, conversely if that be the case, that "this belief system" is saving from society?

If you're wondering why atheists are so angry or vehement, this is why. We live surrounded by crazy people, churches everywhere, and no one seems to notice the problem with that, or the price we're all paying. We'll never become a true civilization until all religions go into the dustbin of history.

"Crazy" is often only in the eye of the beholder, and not to be found objectively. Right here, in this paragraph, you explicitly state an agenda, meaning that objectivity quietly slipped out of the room. When that happens, accusations of "crazy" can be thrown in either direction, because it all suddenly becomes subjective rather than objective. To put it bluntly, "they" are no longer provably any crazier than "you", and vice versa. Your subjective opinion is no more valid than theirs, making yourself susceptible to the same aspersions you cast against them.

reply to post by cathar


Found Ralph Ellis's interviews fascinating to watch and very informative. He appears to be one of the researchers (or his team) to have really looked and followed the traces left behind of the past. I doubt many will accept his findings willingly and they are controversial, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were found to be correct, should any 'official' body decide to investigate what he has researched.

Jesus is mentioned in Jewish documents like the Talmud, but in a less than flattering way.
There is no reason why anybody would express hatred for a fictional character.

reply to post by bitsforbytes



I can't believe people still to this day believe Jesus the Solar Messiah actually existed when there is very little evidence to support it.

It's Pagan symbolism! Nothing more and nothing less!

That includes his supposed birthday. Pagan Sun movements!!

For the first three centuries, the collective body of all Christians, including clerical knew little of the birthday of Jesus up until the 4th century, as currently there is still no Biblical evidence which even declares the birthday of Jesus as the 25th of December. There is simply no external historical confirmation for the story outside of the New Testament either with accounts being internally contradictive.

Hmmm! I wonder why that is?!

The Winter Solstice
The major winter festival that the ancient however did celebrate, particularly Aryans was that when the Sun reached the point farthest south of the equator beginning Dec 21st, and ending Dec 25th. This was seen as the renewing of the Sun every year and appeared at its most southerly position, directly overhead at the Tropic of Capricorn (23 degrees 27 minutes south latitude) in the Northern hemisphere.

The winter solstice also became the birthday of multiple resurrecting fertility gods including Attis, Frey, Thor, Dionysus, Osiris, Adonis, Mithra, Tammuz, and Cernunnos. Romans alike celebrated the festival of the Saturnalia from December 17th to the 24th to honor the Greek god Saturn, and originated as a thanksgiving celebration to commemorate the winter planting that consisted of a period of goodwill, devoted to visiting friends and swapping gifts.

From late winter, up until the spring equinox was the "40 days", which later became Christian Lent.

In 313 CE, the official birthday of Jesus in alignment with Mithra also became December 25th. In the year 375 CE, Pope Julius I likewise declared the Nativity of the birth of Jesus as December 25th to align followers of the Sun god Mithra. This event became the very motivation as to why Jesus received his official birth anniversary on December 25th in accordance of the ancient pagan resurrecting solar godman in the Roman Empire, as before that, no one knew of his historical birth. St. Augustine even went as far as declaring that the priests of Mithra worshipped the same deity as he did.

Paul equally attested to knowing nothing about Jesus' birth, ministry and healings, which was alarming, as the origins of Christianity itself derive from Paul, and not Jesus. Paul doesn't even quote anything that Jesus is alleged to have said, nor did any of Jesus' original twelve disciples write of his teaching.

There is lot's more info about it. But read for yourself.

The Pagan Origins Of Jesus Christ

The story of Jesus and the biblical writings about him are all very well and informative but in truth he didn't exist!! Believing in Jesus and God is the same as believing in Santa Clause. Makes for a great fairytale!

Scope and a Beam
Hi, I don't mean to enrage anyone here, but there seems to me that there's no solid proof that Jesus actually existed.

What a great way to start the New Year that Jesus is real.
If that's that case that Jesus didn't exist, then there is no solid proof that any ancient persons of antiquity existed. On the other hand, the same historical methods used to verify ancient persons of antiquity are applied to everyone, including Jesus.
Professor Paul L. Maier states, "Aside from the many Messianic predictions in the Old Testament, not one of the four Gospels or the 23 other documents in the New Testament would make an ounce of sense if Jesus had never lived. Did the whole cavalcade of well-known historical personalities in the first century A.D. who interacted with Jesus deal with a vacuum? Did Herod the Great try to terminate an infant ghost? Did the Jewish high priests Annas and Caiaphas interview a spirit? Did the Roman governor Pontius Pilate judge a phantom on Good Friday, or Paul and so many apostles give their lives for a myth?
No one doubts that the above names are well known from both sacred and secular sources, as well as archaeological evidence, and are therefore historical. The same is clearly true of Jesus of Nazareth. But why, then, is Jesus not permitted the "luxury" of actually having lived as did the rest of these? Why the double standard here? "
The New Testament documents are closer to the source (Jesus) than "any" other works of antiquity. Paul, the Apostle wrote his first epistle 25 years after Jesus resurrected . You won't find any other works of antiquity that close. Alexander the great was written about 400 years after his death but we never hear that.

There are over a dozen of Ancient Non-Christian Sources for Christ. Please see my friends webpage here:
www.garyhabermas.com...[/url]

People have a misnomer that the New Testament books cannot be used as evidence. But they can because they wrote down what they seen and wrote down what the Apostles told them.

Then you have Saul of Tarsus, he was contemporary of Jesus. He lived at the same time Jesus did and he was under the great teacher Gamaliel (Act 22:3 and Act 5: 34-42) He was going around and having Christians killed or put into prison.
Paul the Apostle had seen the disciples of Jesus, Peter and James and then later on seen John along with Peter and James (Gal 1:18-19, Gal 2:9).
Paul even goes further about the witnesses in 1 Corinthians 15. He even states that if you don't believe me go talk to them because many are still alive.

As for miracles, they only thing that is important to us humans is Jesus resurrection.
Professor Gary Habermas and Mike Licona speak on the minimal facts for Jesus resurrection.
"Each of these minimal facts must meet two criteria: (1) the data are strongly evidenced, and (2) the data are granted by virtually all scholars on the subject, even the skeptical ones. The minimal facts are:
1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
2. His disciples believed that He rose and appeared to them.
3. The church persecutor Paul was suddenly changed.
4. The skeptic James, brother of Jesus, was suddenly changed.
5. The tomb was empty."

If you need anymore information let me know. And I'll you out.
Thanks

I'd recommend Talmud. The sanhidren didn't want him to so why would any Jew of that time lie about his existence. Also I believe there is roman record of the things that happened at the time of his death.
Other than that if your passionate about the subject if search for Persian, Iraqi and Indian General record of the kings of the time visiting Jesus at his birth.

reply to post by Scope and a Beam

IkNOwSTuff
Worshiping Jesus, praying towards a cross IS idol worship

Worshiping Jesus is fine. We find Thomas worshiping Him and calling Him my Lord and my God. John 20:28.
We worship Him because He is worthy of worship.

cathar
The real Jesus was born in 14 AD and led the revolt against Rome ..He was captured in 70 AD.
google Ralph Ellis /red ice radio for details....

The New Testament Jesus is fiction...Google Joseph Atwill and watch his interviews....

I am not joking...I have researched this in depth .....

There is no historical data that Jesus was born in 14 AD and revolted against Rome or was captured in 70 AD. If the New Testament Jesus is fiction, then all other persons of antiquity are fiction.

reply to post by stevcolx


You, in my opinion, should go waaaay back. Go further than that and see what you think.

Read the Dead Sea Scrolls, Books of Enoch, The Urantia Book, and by all means research who Enoch was and his relation to Melchizedek and The Son of Man. Who was Metatron?

Christianity/Pagan/Zoroaster roots go back to the first days and the Sun can be seen to illuminate both the material world and the spiritual.

All religions and or belief systems have their roots... just like a tree. These trees bare fruit and we see the fruit of the world is in chaos. Enoch speaks to future generations and makes the first of many predictions and can be seen thousands of years later in Revelations.

Thecakeisalie
Firstly, literacy wasn't common back in the time that Jesus was said to walk the Earth, so there would only be few people that would be capable of recording his activities.

That is not true. Matthew was a tax collector and he had to keep records. Then you have Luke who was a physician.

C21H30O2I
The New Testament present two radically different accounts of the nativity.

No it doesn't. You have one story and then you have the other that fills in the details.
I bet you would howl if the Gospels were the same.

Itisnowagain
Neither the father or the son are actual people.
They are the two aspects which make the only one - present awareness.

They are people, they have a mind, will and emotions.

reply to post by stevcolx


You watched Zetgeist and swallowed everything that was fed to you.

bitsforbytes
I cannot believe after reading all the replies. I mean honestly reading all the replies one can come out saying that Jesus never existed.

One can contest his miracles or divinity, but his existence is undeniable. He walked this earth and his short time here made such a difference that people believe in him till this day.

Thousands of years later, do people even understand how amazing that is? Millions of people believe in him, MILLIONS till today. He lived 33 years and he is still making ripples in the water thousands of years later. Still touching lives, still relevant.

It takes more than rational thinking to see and hear what is at hand here. You must try to understand with the neurons in your heart and not with the neurons in your brain. Does Jesus ever try to appeal to you with knowledge? With great secrets of the universe? No, he is all about being a bright light, a soul with a heart, to recognize that we must know ourselves and to keep our house (body) in order for us to understand what is at stake here.

Mass belief in something doesn't prove its existence. That is an appeal to popularity fallacy. When countless generations grow up being told that Jesus existed then turn around and tell their children the same thing, of course it will be ingrained in people's head that he existed. It is just a simple case of mass programming and brainwashing from childhood, most of which was done unintentionally. Besides Jesus Christ certainly didn't exist as a person, a person named Yeshua who founded Christianity may have existed though. But again, just because you and millions of other people believe he existed doesn't qualify as proof that he did.