Why is there no real proof of Jesus existing outside of biblical references?

StalkerSolent

edmc^2

damwel
The Romans were meticulous record keepers. They have records of each citizen and what they paid in taxes. We have found records of a citizen being charged with petty theft even but there is absolutely no record of a Jesus Christ being charged with anything let alone someone by his name being crucified. He didn't exist.

That said Christianity is no less significant. Christ himself should have said that it isn't about the man, it is about the message. Love thy God with all thy heart and soul and love thy neighbor as thyself. That's the important thing not that a man named Jesus did the things proscribed to him.

Now why in the world would the Roman's promote an enemy of theirs?

Why should they promote Jesus agenda by even mentioning him in any of their records?

Why should they elevate such an enemy of the state?

Also, have we found exhaustive records? I mean, wasn't there a revolt that ended with Jerusalem destroyed a few decades after Jesus died? Followed by the collapse of the Roman empire?

I mean, if the US collapsed right now, I bet that in a thousand years we could find petty theft records, but I also bet we wouldn't know the names of everyone executed. Shoot, I bet that there were quite a few people legally executed since the late 1770s of which we have no surviving first-hand records, and that was only three hundred years ago. Why would we expect to find records of a rabbi executed in a backwater province when we only started looking more than a thousand years after it happened?

This not really surprising as this practice (erasing one from history) has been done so many times even the past.

Notice:

Endless death

Pharaoh Hatshepsut enjoyed a peaceful and prosperous reign. She built magnificent temples, protected Egypt's borders and masterminded a highly profitable trading mission to the mysterious land of Punt. She should have been feted as one of the most successful of the 18th Dynasty kings. Not everyone, however, was impressed by her achievements.


The female king vanished from Egyptian history. Soon after her death in 1457 BC, Hatshepsut's monuments were attacked, her statues dragged down and smashed and her image and titles defaced. The female king vanished from Egyptian history. She would remain lost until, almost three thousand years later, modern Egyptologists reconstructed her damaged inscriptions and restored her to her rightful dynastic place.

www.bbc.co.uk...

reply to post by Scope and a Beam

reply to post by C21H30O2I

They were obviously influenced by the bible and to me I cant accept that.

So in this case you're dismissing what they said because you think "They were obviously influenced by the bible"?

Correct?


Edit:

reply to post by Scope and a Beam


Basically the bible is made of symbolism and metaphors, this is that you can call a cat a cat, a dog a bat and a rabbit a hat and it dosent change what is symbolized, you merely change the symbol, meaning that what is symbolized by the symbol just remains as inscrutable.

All the generations from Abraham to Jesus are mindsets/states of consciousness. This is told through out the bible in many teachings hidden so only those that have real intelligence(common sense) may comprehend it. Each one of the generations/conscious consciences of this same persons mind, the first been of lesser superiority than the second so forth, resulting in Jesus with ultimate perception and mind over matter.

All religious books are a means to an end to attain Mind over matter/Karma control/Open your third eye/Enlightenment. These are all different symbols but symbolize one.

I cannot find it, it is around Matthew or Mark but Jesus tells his disciples he will be seen as a man from the genitals wrongly perceived he basically says.

Here is the proof that the New Testament is fiction....





and here is the story of the actual historical King Jesus who was born in 14 AD and led the revolt against Rome.

reply to post by cathar


Matthew 12:13 -
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

You have to try and understand it with your mind.

Auricom
reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

 

False. When the cross replaces Jesus (or the Jesus image replaces Jesus) it becomes an idol. But it's directly tied to Christianity, the cross is a symbol of what Jesus died unto, and when you pray to the cross you pray to Jesus, NOT the cross. Same for the image of Jesus.

The day you value the symbol of the cross or the statue of Jesus more than Jesus himself is the day it becomes an idol.

Its an Idol

Idol: an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.

reply to post by cathar


sorry but the sources you've provided to discredit the Bible (NT) and Jesus Christ are pure nonsense.

The guest seems to be confused of the events and timelines and who Jesus really was. I think he's confusing the Jesus of the Bible with another Jesus that came during the time of the great apostasy who presented themselves as (false) Messiahs.

C21H30O2I
reply to post by Dianec

 

What do people need? A snapshot and fingerprints? Of course Jesus was real.

Just the snapshot.... It would help immensely!

I understand the bible says he was real. I mean, he would have to be, the bible says he got himself crucified. So, he wasn't just some electrical, supernatural, entity. And ok, his deeds weren't documented till after the fact.... umm ok, more please, a statue? real bust sculpture, anything. Otherwise, it's IMO, just blind faith.

We demand the facts......

Some people need more and that's cool. He was all about faith and as another poster and I both said - he was a nobody until after the fact so no statues for him.

Mohammed, Buddha, and the Dahli Lama all say he was real and they have their own texts so it isn't just in the bible. And the Jews also assert he was real. The difference - said he was just a man and not a messiah. If your insisting on physical proof your not gonna find it - no one has and even if they did there was no DNA sample taken at his birth unfortunately to match what might be found. Even if we had that someone would say it was contaminated so at what point do people say what they have is evidence enough? That's subjective so yea - people need different levels of proof.

A cloth has been found (shroud of Turin I think?). Some nails were found, a possible grave site, more written texts (Dead Sea scrolls), and probably some more stuff I don't know about - but how can they conclusively link that to a man they have nothing physical on? They can't. And the Dead Sea scrolls are not in the bible.

Dianec

Mohammed, Buddha, and the Dahli Lama all say he was real

The Buddha died about 500 years before Jesus was born aha but Buddhists do recognise him as an enlightened being, the Buddha's birth place has not long since been found, and he was a royal prince and should have been thoroughly documented. It's easy to see how any record of Jesus could have been destroyed / his identity covered. It's just another one of those mysteries but rather than debating his existence and reading between the lines, why don't we just take the good "love thy neighbour" "do not steal" and forget the dogma and altered texts made by men that followed.

Josephus
John E. Remsberg, The Christ

Late in the first century Josephus wrote his celebrated work, “The Antiquities of the Jews,” giving a history of his race from the earliest ages down to his own time. Modern versions of this work contain the following passage:
“Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works; a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day” (Book IXVIII, Chap. iii, sec. 3).

For nearly sixteen hundred years Christians have been citing this passage as a testimonial, not merely to the historical existence, but to the divine character of Jesus Christ. And yet a ranker forgery was never penned.

Its language is Christian. Every line proclaims it the work of a Christian writer. “If it be lawful to call him a man.” “He was the Christ.” “He appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning, him.” These are the words of a Christian, a believer in the divinity of Christ. Josephus was a Jew, a devout believer in the Jewish faith-- the last man in the world to acknowledge the divinity of Christ. The inconsistency of this evidence was early recognized, and Ambrose, writing in the generation succeeding its first appearance (360 A. D.) offers the following explanation, which only a theologian could frame:

“If the Jews do not believe us, let them, at least, believe their own writers. Josephus, whom they esteem a very great man, hath said this, and yet hath he spoken truth after such a manner; and so far was his mind wandered from the right way, that even he was not a believer as to what he himself said; but thus he spake, in order to deliver historical truth, because he thought it not lawful for him to deceive, while yet he was no believer, because of the hardness of his heart, and his perfidious intention.”

Its brevity disproves its authenticity. Josephus’ work is voluminous and exhaustive. It comprises twenty books. Whole pages are devoted to petty robbers and obscure seditious leaders. Nearly forty chapters are devoted to the life of a single king. Yet this remarkable being, the greatest product of his race, a being of whom the prophets foretold ten thousand wonderful things, a being greater than any earthly king, is dismissed with a dozen lines.

It interrupts the narrative. Section 2 of the chapter containing it gives an account of a Jewish sedition which was suppressed by Pilate with great slaughter. The account ends as follows: “There were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded; and thus an end was put to this sedition.” Section 4, as now numbered, begins with these words: “About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder.” The one section naturally and logically follows the other. Yet between these two closely connected paragraphs the one relating to Christ is placed; thus making the words, “another sad calamity,” refer to the advent of this wise and wonderful being.

The early Christian fathers were not acquainted with it. Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen all would have quoted this passage had it existed in their time. The failure of even one of these fathers to notice it would be sufficient to throw doubt upon its genuineness; the failure of all of them to notice it proves conclusively that it is spurious, that it was not in existence during the second and third centuries.






freethought.mbdojo.com...

reply to post by ketsuko


From your page 3 reply - I think you make a good analogy with Picaso and our not knowing a great deal about his life. What if people began to ask us to prove he actually existed - actually created those paintings. That self portrait could have been an aberation. We can't "prove" he existed anymore than we can "prove" Jesus existed.

iRoyalty

Dianec

Mohammed, Buddha, and the Dahli Lama all say he was real

The Buddha died about 500 years before Jesus was born aha but Buddhists do recognise him as an enlightened being, the Buddha's birth place has not long since been found, and he was a royal prince and should have been thoroughly documented. It's easy to see how any record of Jesus could have been destroyed / his identity covered. It's just another one of those mysteries but rather than debating his existence and reading between the lines, why don't we just take the good "love thy neighbour" "do not steal" and forget the dogma and altered texts made by men that followed.

Thank you for correcting me on that.

I agree - if someone doesnt want to recognize him they can chose to do so in an easier way than asking he be proven before they will consider. Proving it will never happen - it will never be enough if one is using that as a basis.

reply to post by HumAnnunaki


Imagine is about NWO , one world government, read the lyrics again

Excellent thread, belated S/F, OP!

I think this is one of the finer threads I've seen on this issue; and rather than putting in my opinion (which is freely available on my profile's list of threads and posts), I'll simply say that there are many members in this thread which have lately 'come out of the woodwork' who indicate they have done much the same research that I have.

FWIW, I have given out stars to all of you presenting logical, thoughtful, intelligent points; which is everyone except the handful who refuse to even consider the possibility.

Well done, everyone!

Why is there no real evidence of batman existing outside of fiction?
that's the answer but no one is willing to admit Jesus is just a superhero
from a different time. The harry potter of Rome if you will. Poor
fellow rises to heights of power by just doing whats right... yeah that's
always been a good story.

Maybe he did existed maybe he didn't, but he had nothing to do with the bible and christianity, cause christianity was created for political reasons of that time, and there was a certain agenda by the gospell writers. All they needed was
a ''victim'' to sucrifice and they found him (or created him).

As for the Message of his teachings, ethics and morals of the gospells they just had to copy greek literature which was massive at that time (imagine that today it is estimated that only 1% has survived) full of political and social ethics, values of life, virtuousness, radical philosophies, metaphoric mythologies, various poetry, theatrical scripts full of social messages,etc.
After all the new testament was first writen in ancient greek!
Anyway nice message, but nothing new at the time.

Furthermore if The Creator of the vast universe, (the most powerfull being ever existed, the creator of the insanely complex nature, and the genius architect of all matter and energy around us) would send His son to deliver a message to his creations (us) then I guess his son would make more impact to our history than just a badly written book of mythology writen decades after his death.

Also by the time His Son lived none heard of him and his miracles, other than a few followers,
And how about the people of europe, china, india, south african tribes, or the mayas and the other native americans of that time,
Weren't they also His Children? why didn't he ''saved'' them too?

And if you are thinking that now after 2000 years thanks to the gospell writers everybody know about jesus,
then why so much delay and why his ''message of love'' had to be delivered with killings, tortures, wars, agony and misery by his followers (christians) and not by himself, with pretty stories and miracles like he did to the Jews?
'
After all everything happens with God's will, right?

P.s Those that witnessed the Christ and his miracles believed he was the son of God by ''facts''
but the rest of us have to relly on blind faith and that isn't fair at all!
God's injustice continues by selecting israel as his favorite race! Since we are all children of Adam and Eve why there are so many different races and why he had to choose one?

IkNOwSTuff

PlanetXisHERE
I don't really care about the person, I care about Jesus' message, and it was and is beautiful and profound, one path to enlightenment/salvation. Idol worship serves no one. Whether or not he lived the message ascribed to him is one to me that makes sense and seems to be the best way to live your life, but this of course is just my own opinion.

Namaste

Worshiping Jesus, praying towards a cross IS idol worship

you think christians are muslims?

retsdeeps1


The Essenes, like other monastic orders through the ages, collected and studied ancient writings and had an extensive library, among the largest of the ruined buildings excavated at Quarom. The fact that no Essene connection is made to Jesus I find to be typical of the history of the church of surpressing new ideas. Just as the realization that the Sun, not the Earth, was the center of our solar system, it took generations for the church to admit that and not prosecute scholars who challenged the status qou, perhaps that happened to Allegro as it did to Galilelo. There are connections between the Essene beliefs and Christianity, but they are not identical. Considering Jesus as part of alternative Jewish sect that saw this life as a preparation for the next, were not interested in wealth and materialism, and a devotion to God as the purpose of life all fit well with what reportedly Jesus spoke about.

The "churches" primary interest in keeping the Sun at the center of it all had to do with the fact that sun worshiping pagans had gained control of the church at Rome. So much of the Roman church interpretation and presentation of the bible has to do with this. Mother Mary as queen of Heaven being its primary incorporation of the pagan super mother myth into the church. The prophet Jeremiah roundly blasted this incorporation in his day. During the early days of the church the Pagans understood how much ground they were losing and even with their derailing of the church had to compromise to such an extent that its azz was always hanging out.

Jesus being associated with the Essenes is neither here nor there. I see this lack of association though quite frequently couched as some sort of conspiracy. Its fairly clear in the texts that Jesus was not a member and whatever John the Baptists association was with this sect its also clear that Jesus was not even closely associated with John the Baptist and his inner circle of followers. Several of Johns followers became Jesus followers but so did a host of others that were men of different sorts. Are we do believe, for example, that Jesus was a "fisherman" because several of His followers were in the fishing business? Or a tax collector because He had one in His ranks? That's the logic being used in this Essene thing, not very deep. One could even call it fishing or fishy.

Chamberf=6
Another thing that really bugs me about the Jesus story;

There is a 2 decade silence of his doings. Wouldn't his disciples and followers ask about his past? Was the Messiah so boring for 20 years that there is nothing noteworthy??

And accounts of his birth must just be hearsay, since the two gospel writers mentioning it weren't there...

AND the new testament books were written 70 to 100 years after Jesus lived anyway, so books names may well have just been attributed to people who never even wrote them --with even more hearsay.

gee, i guess they were using winxp.

seriously? plato was 1000yrs till we seen his writings, it took 4000yrs to figure out egypt.

without the rosetta stone, we'd still have no idea.

got any original Shakespeare writings?