An UNMODIFIED Boeing 767 cannot fly @ 510 knots @ Sea Level. (hoax)

reply to post by bbracken677

reply to post by dragonridr

reply to post by neformore

reply to post by hellobruce

reply to post by Xtrozero

reply to post by NavyDoc

reply to post by defcon5

reply to post by SixX18

reply to post by Phage

Phage
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

but i'd like to keep this fact-based only in regards to what can be proven.

Good. Can you prove that an unreinforced commercial aircraft will break up if it exceeds 425 knots?

Yes.

You guys are perfectly entitled to any "belief" you wish, but you are not entitled to make up your own facts based on what you "believe" or what you've been misled and told to believe by the authorities, and of course based on how the events were "rendered", and i can understand where you're coming from having been in the same camp, we all were, to a one, and of course it's impossible for many people, even in the face of evidence to the contrary to completely alter their historical worldview or paradigm to adopt a new and radically different one, along with a new hypothesis capable of including all phenomenon and information. And besides, who wants to admit to being wrong, or worse, LIED TO, and manipulated in such a manner, even if simply because the people that died that day, and in the wake of 9/11 as part of a giant security crackdown - they are any man/woman/child, they are US, our fellow countrymen and our fellow global citizens of the world, where the alternative hypothesis is just, well, psychologically impalatable, let us say. Nevertheless, sometimes in regards to historical lessons learned "that which hurts, instructs" (Benjamin Franklin, great American who once tried to capture lightning with kite), whereby "the more that sorrow and suffering has carved into our being, the more joy we can contain" (Gibran).

There's just no mudding over or muddying the waters in regards to 9/11, and the first decade(s) of the 21st century, an event in hindsight when placed under close scrutiny that simply cannot be believed, or, in the final analysis based in the light of reason, truth, logic and science, accepted or endorsed or protected or guarded.

We cannot turn away and forget, nor ignore the elephant in the room which to this very day has attempted to foist on everyone including last but not least the American people themselves, a very bad history, founded and built on a terrible lie, which until we face it as it is, or was, there can be no learning and thus no real true and lasting justice and liberty for the human being.

It was the crime of the century.

But, you can "believe" as you wish, even if it defies the very laws of physics which govern the universe.

You can deny if too if you like, but the one thing you cannot do, is distort the information, or deny it, or ignore it, it's up to you how to "deal with it" - you can lie to yourself, but WHY? i ask, would you want to live in Philip D. Zelikow's public myth and in effect endorse it's capacity to "retain it's transcendent importance and relevancy, even as the experience generation passes away." That too is absurd. Just look at the history that it was wrought, and the continued abuse of power according to it's "transformative power". Are you NUTS? I don't mean that in a bad or derogatory way either when i ask that question.

The problem with 9/11 truth i think, when it comes right down to it, is that it can give you a terrible headache and you can loose sleep over it, for a bit, until the knowledge dawns that you're really on the right side of history and have thus restored to yourself and others the power to be and to become, once again, active historical paprticipants and causal free will agents of change for the better, even by an infinite degree relative to and by comparison to all this 9/11 crapola and security power grab all based on a LIE and nothing more than a great murderous HOAX.

We must come to disavow ourselves of the OS regarding 9/11 and what it wrought, to end the psy-op, and end it's power to shape, mold or "sear" history and US international and domestic policy, which is killing us, in the case of 9/11, quite literally.

In their face, i say. Truth to power, and may God protect and watch over us all as we enter into this crappy century, may a new and better day dawn and may peace begin to come to the earth so that we can change focus on the things that matter most, and put away wicked policies designed to enslave the people in a techno-grid while feeding them more crap culture while maybe setting up another damn think tank to cook up the next 9/11 type event (false flag pay-op, patsies included).

Enough!

The information contained in this thread is REAL and accurate. There has been no deception on my part, not once in anything i've posted here including the OP and follow up posts.

If you feel it's important, please spread the information using the tools at the upper right of your screen and let's get this info into the noosphere where there's only 5.5 stages of separation between everyone.

Who cares what CNN says or what wikipedia has to say.

Truth to "power" i say, even as we snatch from their hand the historical fulcrum of the modern age, by using it against itself, even as a civilized man who carries a big stick. The real power belongs to the people and this monstrosity of a crime needs to be made known far and wide.

As to the plane, no one can possibly know when "that" particular 767 (flight 175) would have suffered structural failure as it was never positively identified, the black boxes conveniently "destroyed" even though they were in fact, found, and squirreled away by the FBI (for national security reasons no doubt) nor did it, THE plane that hit the south tower, suffer structural failure (or any loss of control). However, this, below, is how "that" particular airplane compares to a standard Boeing 767 which did suffer structural failure and loss of control, by comparison.

"Believe" whatever you like, but you can't alter the facts in this case and somehow make it fit the official story and admitted public myth, simply thought to be true, but not "neccessarily" true (Zelikow).

So me i say that i'll take historical reality, even if it hurts a bit, or a lot, and slip right through the crack in Mr. Zelikow's universe, to enter straight into the real world, while taking a stand if need be for my fellow man, with my hope and my trust placed squarely and securely in God's hands who alone knows all and sees all and remembers all, and who also loves and is capable of forgiveness.

LaElvis
reply to post by dragonridr

 

How can you repeatedly say there is no such thing as Nano Thermite??? It is being produced in many places and in many different ways. The use for 9/11 was probably a Military type not used or known to private businesses.

MICs or Super-thermites are generally developed for military use, propellants, explosives, and pyrotechnics. Because of their highly increased reaction rate, nanosized thermitic materials are being researched by the U.S. military with the aim of developing new types of bombs that are several times more powerful than conventional explosives. Nanoenergetic materials can store higher amounts of energy than conventional energetic materials and can be used in innovative ways to tailor the release of this energy. Thermobaric weapons are considered to be a promising application of nanoenergetic materials. Research into military applications of nano-sized materials began in the early 1990s.

In military research, aluminium-molybdenum oxide, aluminium-Teflon and aluminium-copper(II) oxide have received considerable attention. Other compositions tested were based on nanosized RDX and with thermoplastic elastomers. PTFE or other fluoropolymer can be used as a binder for the composition. Its reaction with the aluminium, similar to magnesium/teflon/viton thermite, adds energy to the reaction. Of the listed compositions, the Al-KMnO4 one shows the highest pressurization rates, followed by orders of magnitude slower Al-MoO3 and Al-CuO, followed by yet slower Al-Fe2O3.

Nanoparticles can be prepared by spray drying from a solution, or in case of insoluble oxides, spray pyrolysis of solutions of suitable precursors. The composite materials can be prepared by sol-gel techniques or by conventional wet mixing and pressing.

Similar but not identical systems are nano-laminated pyrotechnic compositions, or energetic nanocomposites. In these systems, the fuel and oxidizer is not mixed as small particles, but deposited as alternating thin layers. For example, an energetic multilayer structure may be coated with an energetic booster material. Through selection of materials (the range of which includes virtually all metals) and size scale of the layers, functional properties of the multilayer structures can be controlled, such as the reaction front velocity, the reaction initiation temperature, and the amount of energy delivered by a reaction of alternating unreacted layers of the multilayer structure.

A method for producing nanoscale, or ultra fine grain (UFG) aluminum powders, a key component of most nano-thermitic materials, is the dynamic gas-phase condensation method, pioneered by Wayne Danen and Steve Son at Los Alamos National Laboratory. A variant of the method is being used at the Indian Head Division of the Naval Surface Warfare Center. Another production method for nanoaluminum powder is the pulsed plasma process developed by NovaCentrix (formerly Nanotechnologies). The powders made by both processes are indistinguishable. A critical aspect of the production is the ability to produce particles of sizes in the tens of nanometer range, as well as with a limited distribution of particle sizes. In 2002, the production of nano-sized aluminum particles required considerable effort, and commercial sources for the material were limited. Current production levels are now beyond 100 kg/month.

An application of the sol-gel method, developed by Randall Simpson, Alexander Gash and others at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, can be used to make the actual mixtures of nanostructured composite energetic materials. Depending on the process, MICs of different density can be produced. Highly porous and uniform products can be achieved by supercritical extraction.

Nanoscale composites are easier to ignite than traditional thermites. A nichrome bridgewire can be used in some cases. Other means of ignition can include flame or laser pulse. Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) is developing super-thermite electric matches that use comparatively low ignition currents and resist friction, impact, heat and static discharge.

MICs have been investigated as a possible replacement for lead (e.g. lead styphnate, lead azide) containing percussion caps and electric matches. Compositions based on Al-Bi2O3 tend to be used. PETN may be optionally added. MICs can be also added to high explosives to modify their properties. Aluminium is typically added to explosives to increase their energy yield. Addition of small amount of MIC to aluminium powder increases overall combustion rate, acting as a burn rate modifier.

The products of a thermite reaction, resulting from ignition of the thermitic mixture, are usually metal oxides and elemental metals. At the temperatures prevailing during the reaction, the products can be solid, liquid or gaseous, depending on the components of the mixture. Super-thermite electric matches developed by LANL can create simple sparks, hot slag, droplet, or flames as thermal-initiating outputs to ignite other incendiaries or explosives.

Because it doesnt exist the article you got this from doesnt know the difference. Mic is where you coat an oxidizer to help with an explosion. The key to any explosion is the oxygen atom and how quickly it can be converted. this whole article is speculation including the work at lawrence livermore Would you like to ask Randall Simpson we can contact him your misunderstanding his work When dealing with explosives like c4 plasticizers are important if we can mix an oxidizer in to it makes the reaction more efficient. So the best plastique is made up of the highest oxygen content.

So if i want to make a thematic reaction of say aluminum i can use mics to assist they allow oxygen to be added into the reaction quickly. However i still need an oxidizer and say aluminum.This will only assist the reaction its not replacing thermite which will be just as its all ways been made.Let me explain mics they are microcrystalline structures aka mics.They store oxygen for a reaction. Notice thermite uses metal not crystals. thus why we still need an oxidizer and mics can only help the reaction. Whoever wrote your article thinks they know what they're talking about but in truth clueless. Once again show me a lab report or science report of any kind talking about creating nano thermite anywhere else but a 9\11 sight. It doesnt exist and as i said if it did it would cost thousands to make an ounce and it would require hundreds of pounds you would need to destroy a building.Trust me the government isnt going to spend a couple of million to destroy it when they could do it for 10000. Which leads to the question why not c4 its cheap easier to use and less volatile oh and need only a couple of pounds at most.

9/11 Planes: No Precedent in Modern Aviation History.



V-G Diagrams



And here is a more precise comparison of the 9/11 Aircraft with other known aircraft which suffered loss of control/structural failure, as it pertains to Vd.



V-G Diagrams


And this last one just for you, defcon5

reply to post by defcon5

RNZAF_757_CompareA1

Bold titles don't make things true

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Sorry, but that's a diatribe of your opinion and doesn't address what people have been saying.

You sidestepped my point about EA990, and how it exceeded the limits but it still came out of a much more severe dive. You say it broke up, but the engine only came off the plane just before impact with the water - indeed the NTSB report says as much. I quoted the actual relevant part earlier on in thread.

The results of the Safety Board's examination of CVR, FDR, radar, airplane maintenance history, wreckage, trajectory study, and debris field information were not consistent with any portion of the airplane (including any part of the longitudinal flight controls) separating throughout the initial dive and subsequent climb to about 25,000 feet mean sea level (msl)

You say that's not possible, at all.

So why should I believe you over the NTSB, exactly? EA 990 is the premise for a huge amount of your argument here.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


So I guess that the truth movement believes that the aircraft should have disintegrated into vapor before hitting its target?

If you are on a kamikaze mission, you don't care about the manufactures specs... You want to build up as much potential energy as humanly possible, and gain as much inertia as you can, so you get the biggest “bang for the buck” when that energy is released. Who cares if the lav panel falls off on the way in? If it hits as one solid unit, great, if it hits like a shotgun blast of pieces, just as good.

Just because a manufacturer says that something should fail at a certain spec, does not mean it will. Aircraft parts are custom machined, each piece is unique, the numbers given by the manufacturer are the lowest known average failure for each piece.

Me, I've actually worked on 757 & 757's, I have to ask what the OP's experience in that realm is?

defcon5
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

So I guess that the truth movement believes that the aircraft should have disintegrated into vapor before hitting its target?

If you are on a kamikaze mission, you don't care about the manufactures specs... You want to build up as much potential energy as humanly possible, and gain as much inertia as you can, so you get the biggest “bang for the buck” when that energy is released. Who cares if the lav panel falls off on the way in? If it hits as one solid unit, great, if it hits like a shotgun blast of pieces, just as good.

Just because a manufacturer says that something should fail at a certain spec, does not mean it will. Aircraft parts are custom machined, each piece is unique, the numbers given by the manufacturer are the lowest known average failure for each piece.

Me, I've actually worked on 757 & 757's, I have to ask what the OP's experience in that realm is?

This is a looong and very detailed thread. But before reading all of the replies and examining whether the statements and evidence given is true I have ONE QUESTION:

* What is the point of your post, what do you want to prove?

That it was "no plane"? You can make the most scientific post and well researched evidence, but ULTIMATELY the implied conclusion and any alternative scenario that "it was no plane" is bound to be nonsensical.

Give me one alternative scenario, drone" holographic projection etc..etc.. they will all lead to theories which I and my common sense/logic cannot accept. (Your scientific evidence of it allegedly not being able to be at that speed at the moment would make the concluding alternate theory NOT less non-sensical.)

Common sense already kicks in at the fact that we had a public event which happened in front of millions of people and live cameras...and from the observed events alone (including the aftermath) there is no reason to believe otherwise..respective they confirm the official story. It's like looking outside, seeing the sun is shining and writing a paper trying to prove it's actually raining....something like that....

PLAYERONE01
So I guess that the truth movement believes that the aircraft should have disintegrated into vapor before hitting its target?

Yes, it works exactly like car tyres.... have a look at www.michelinman.com...

If you buy a tyre with a "S" speed rating, which has a maximum speed of 112 MPH, if you have those tyres fitted to your car and drive at 113MPH your tyres will all explode!

Well, that is the reasoning some truthers here have!

NoRulesAllowed
Common sense already kicks in at the fact that we had a public event which happened in front of millions of people and live cameras...and from the observed events alone (including the aftermath) there is no reason to believe otherwise..respective they confirm the official story. It's like looking outside, seeing the sun is shining and writing a paper trying to prove it's actually raining....something like that....

Watch this video, and tell me that you don't see a building exploding. Focus on the left side of the screen. You will see huge chunks of building being ejected hundreds of feet laterally and at an upward angle, with massive amounts of dust trailing them... Combine that with the explosions going on many floors below the initiation of "collapse" zone, and you have a pretty clear picture of a building exploding in a downward sequence, and into little tiny bits and and dust. Show me one building collapse that looks like that, and that wasn't a controlled demo job.

soulwaxer

So me i say that i'll take historical reality, even if it hurts a bit, or a lot, and slip right through the crack in Mr. Zelikow's universe

Just what is your problem with Professor Zelikow?

Day after day you can't get out a half a paragraph without some personal derogatory remark about the Professor! Just what is the issue with these unfounded attacks. If you have a problem with the professor's work that is fine-more than happy to discuss it however this not a truther site where every one who opposes you is evil scum bag.

How many metals do you have? How many PS declarations do you have? How many books have you written? How many PhD's do you have? How many years were you at Harvard? How many building are named after you?

I have told you before that I'm going to let you trash proud Americans for no reason whatsoever other than get attention.

You haven't even read the commission report I have proven it twice.

Discuss the evidence and keep your personal hatred to your self.

soulwaxer
Watch this video, and tell me that you don't see a building exploding. Focus on the left side of the screen. You will see huge chunks of building being ejected hundreds of feet laterally and at an upward angle, with massive amounts of dust trailing them... Combine that with the explosions going on many floors below the initiation of "collapse" zone, and you have a pretty clear picture of a building exploding in a downward sequence, and into little tiny bits and and dust. Show me one building collapse that looks like that, and that wasn't a controlled demo job.
soulwaxer

The video shows what I would expect by a massive building collapsing into itself, with the "explosions" caused be pressure from the floors falling down. I would also NOT expect pieces in such a massive collapse only falling "straight down" but pieces very well being ejected outwards, to some extent.

In contrast, the pieces ejected do not APPEAR (I say this as someone who is not a specialist, obviously!) to be "exploding" or being shot out in a way that would be consistent with an explosion. In such a case I would expect some pieces being shot outwards more straight, and farther..rather than in the fashion they do in the video where they kind of make an arc. Saying: The video FOR ME does not show evidence of an explosion, it simply doesn't.

While in itself "shocking" (and actually being a scandal, IMO) that the building collapsed like it did I can actually "explain" for myself how and why it collapsed simply imagining several floors collapsing onto each other starting such a chain reaction. Again: Note I say it's a scandal since IMO such a thing should have never happened, it's a massive flaw in how those towers were designed...and miracuolusly /SARCASM never ever anyone who designed the towers was held responsible for this flaw).

And this, by the way, was also my first thought/impression when I saw 9/11 happening on live TV with the towers collapsing, it simply wouldn't go into my brain that the architecture of those towers was so flawed that a small number of upper floors collapsing would ULTIMATELY lead to the complete destruction/pulverization of TWO towers. Ironically, I have not ever seen people seeing this as the scandal I am seeing this. Focusing on abstruse theories is just distracting and the real guilty parties go free, as always.

Do you think it's "normal" that 5 or so collapsed floors would trigger a chain reaction like that resulting in nothing but a pile of rubble - and have you never thought about that whoever designed the towers like that has blood on their hands? (Not imaginary scenarios, they're not even needed)

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I had typed up a long post containing many of the same themes you mention here and lost it, lol. Funny how some minds think alike especially regarding Zelikow, the public myth and it's transformative power. In short this was my lost post:

Before 9/11:
I believed that steel framed skyscrapers would rarely, if ever collapse due to fire.
I believed it would be a rare thing for any commercial airliner would be hijacked and used kamikaze style to attack a national landmark.
I believed even if they were hijacked our air defense system would have intercepted them.
I believed that no plane could fly over protected airspace and not be shot down by ground air defenses.

The 9/11 OS would have me suspend all those prior beliefs and many more.
Not only that but I would have to disregard all the evidence broadcast on the day of people hearing explosions going off or of crash sites where they could see no airplane wreckage of any kind.

Where you stand on 9/11 does indeed rest upon one's beliefs. From the day of 9/11 itself onwards I was unwilling to suspend my beliefs to accommodate the Commission Report.

I watched it all unfold that day as I was home sick. When I saw the 2nd plane hit the WTC I was incredulous that anyone could successfully hijack multiple airliners and hit their targets. But the when the Pentagon was hit my mind screamed BS! That cannot happen.
One tower disintegrating was unbelievable enough but then the 2nd tower went down and I knew this was no foreign entity attacking us, it could have only come from people inside our country. People with access to the buildings and to the air defense systems.

Over the following weeks I noticed as certain reports were never heard again and new stories inserted to contradict the earlier ones. It was pretty easy to tell someone was covering their ass especially when Bush and Cheney refused to be interviewed by the very commission they objected to having in the first place.

I am still incredulous the American people let the Bush administration off the hook and that NOBODY lost their job, nobody was demoted. In fact the OPPOSITE happened - people who could have stopped the attacks but didn't got PROMOTED. It didn't need to get any more in my face than that.

I am not willing to forgive the governments role in failure to stop the attacks.
I am not willing to forgive the creation of the PATRIOT ACT or DHS in the aftermath.
I am not willing to forgive our invasion of Iraq for any reason, They had no role in 9/11, did not harbor al Qaeda, did not have any weapons of mass destruction and did not want "Democracy" imposed on them.

They haven't done anything right since 9/11.
They have bankrupted our country, stolen the government, ruined our standing in the world, created a police state to control people who weren't even in rebellion and a long list of other stripping of our rights and freedoms - all in response to terrorists who attacked us because "they hate our freedoms". Bush was a terrible liar yet people could not shake the idea that people inside our own government could involved in something so horrible.

Our own government has taken our freedoms from us.
Nobody else.

Those who are willing to accept the OS of 9/11 must be willing to accept invading Iraq, Afghanistan, the PATRIOT ACT, the NDAA. It's a package deal folks. You're going to have to swallow the entire ball of # or reject it in it's entirety because all those things happened in reaction to 9/11.
What happened was a grab for empire and we failed miserably.
I cannot and will not live in Zelikow's transformative myth.
It was our acceptance of it that has led to our national downfall.

Asktheanimals
I believed that no plane could fly over protected airspace and not be shot down by ground air defenses.

What "protected airspace" did any of the planes fly over, and exactly what ground air defence systems do you think the USA have in place then?

hellobruce

Asktheanimals
I believed that no plane could fly over protected airspace and not be shot down by ground air defenses.

What "protected airspace" did any of the planes fly over, and exactly what ground air defence systems do you think the USA have in place then?

Er, the Pentagon perhaps?

Spare me the "They didn't have any ground to air missile defenses".
I won't believe that either.
Kamikaze attacks were established over 50 years before 9/11 as a method of hitting a target and yes, the government did plan for such contingencies regardless of what Condi has to say about it.

I realize each side here does nothing but cheer for itself and these posts are a waste of time generally but I'm unwilling to allow others who may stumble upon this conversation to believe that only one side exists to the argument.

Asktheanimals
Er, the Pentagon perhaps?

Have a look at where Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport is situated....

spare me the "They didn't have any ground to air missile defenses".
I won't believe that either.

It does not matter what you believe, the facts do not support you!

reply to post by hellobruce


The fact is the government will not give us the facts.
It all goes back to what we believe.

Who were the actual 9/11 "terrorists?"

Who benefits, from the engineered "war on terror?"

Who is responsible for a co-opted U.S. federal government?

reply to post by neformore


The info presented there is absolutely 100% true. A bold heading/title nor any sort of biased contempt, prior to investigation (see graphs) cannot alter it's truthfulness or validity or somehow render it untrue..

As to EA990, i replied to you directly, here, no side stepping. I pointed out it's greatest speed during the dive, .99 Mach, which was reached at an altitude of about 22,000 feet where the air is much thinner and that nearer to sea level it lost it's engine when it was at about 425 knots. Therefore it's hard for me to see precisely what you're having a problem with, or in understanding here.

NewAgeMan
reply to post by neformore

 

Egypt Air 990 (EA990) achieved a maximum speed during an uncontrolled descent, of .99 Mach at about 22,000 feet altitude, and eventually lost it's engine (structural failure) nearer to sea level (as the engine was found about 1200 meters from the main crash area) - at about 425 knots.

Ref: www.ntsb.gov...

Please find EA990 along with other precedents, including the DC-8 ref'd in the OP (whose leading wing edges were modified), which achieved a max speed for 16 seconds of Mach 1.01, in controlled flight and without suffering damge, at about 36,000 + feet alt, on the graphs.

It's not what i've posted that's misleading.


Anyway, no hard feelings on my end.

Happy New Year nef, may it be a good one for one and all. Loved your Christmas thread btw.


NAM

Asktheanimals
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

I had typed up a long post containing many of the same themes you mention here and lost it, lol. Funny how some minds think alike especially regarding Zelikow, the public myth and it's transformative power. In short this was my lost post:

Before 9/11:
I believed that steel framed skyscrapers would rarely, if ever collapse due to fire.
I believed it would be a rare thing for any commercial airliner would be hijacked and used kamikaze style to attack a national landmark.
I believed even if they were hijacked our air defense system would have intercepted them.
I believed that no plane could fly over protected airspace and not be shot down by ground air defenses.

The 9/11 OS would have me suspend all those prior beliefs and many more.
Not only that but I would have to disregard all the evidence broadcast on the day of people hearing explosions going off or of crash sites where they could see no airplane wreckage of any kind.

Where you stand on 9/11 does indeed rest upon one's beliefs. From the day of 9/11 itself onwards I was unwilling to suspend my beliefs to accommodate the Commission Report.

I watched it all unfold that day as I was home sick. When I saw the 2nd plane hit the WTC I was incredulous that anyone could successfully hijack multiple airliners and hit their targets. But the when the Pentagon was hit my mind screamed BS! That cannot happen.
One tower disintegrating was unbelievable enough but then the 2nd tower went down and I knew this was no foreign entity attacking us, it could have only come from people inside our country. People with access to the buildings and to the air defense systems.

Over the following weeks I noticed as certain reports were never heard again and new stories inserted to contradict the earlier ones. It was pretty easy to tell someone was covering their ass especially when Bush and Cheney refused to be interviewed by the very commission they objected to having in the first place.

I am still incredulous the American people let the Bush administration off the hook and that NOBODY lost their job, nobody was demoted. In fact the OPPOSITE happened - people who could have stopped the attacks but didn't got PROMOTED. It didn't need to get any more in my face than that.

I am not willing to forgive the governments role in failure to stop the attacks.
I am not willing to forgive the creation of the PATRIOT ACT or DHS in the aftermath.
I am not willing to forgive our invasion of Iraq for any reason, They had no role in 9/11, did not harbor al Qaeda, did not have any weapons of mass destruction and did not want "Democracy" imposed on them.

They haven't done anything right since 9/11.
They have bankrupted our country, stolen the government, ruined our standing in the world, created a police state to control people who weren't even in rebellion and a long list of other stripping of our rights and freedoms - all in response to terrorists who attacked us because "they hate our freedoms". Bush was a terrible liar yet people could not shake the idea that people inside our own government could involved in something so horrible.

Our own government has taken our freedoms from us.
Nobody else.

Those who are willing to accept the OS of 9/11 must be willing to accept invading Iraq, Afghanistan, the PATRIOT ACT, the NDAA. It's a package deal folks. You're going to have to swallow the entire ball of # or reject it in it's entirety because all those things happened in reaction to 9/11.
What happened was a grab for empire and we failed miserably.
I cannot and will not live in Zelikow's transformative myth.
It was our acceptance of it that has led to our national downfall.

edit on 1-1-2014 by Asktheanimals because: (no reason given)

Things well said worth quoting.

I wonder how many people realise about this. 911 done, we cannot turn back, but the "package" still continue, latest is NDAA, and drones, who is the enemy really ?

Asktheanimals
reply to post by hellobruce

 

The fact is the government will not give us the facts.
It all goes back to what we believe.

9/11 (or the moon landing for that matter) were no "secret" events, those were events which took place in the open public, for the largest part at least.

There are enough facts to examine and to see without having to resort to 3rd-hand accounts or hear-say like "there is a guy whose brother's co-worker said that he knows someone who has seen that (...) ".

The OP made a "scientifically looking" post claiming it was impossible that the plane couldn't have gone at that speed, implying (obviously) it was no plane but "something else" which obviously only he or the 9-11 "truth" people know.

As far as THE PLANES are concerned I have no reason to suspect the gvt "hiding the facts" since what I saw was very, very and obviously planes and also all related observations, eg. how the planes impacted or disintegrated etc. are consistent with my knowledge of planes. Short: For ME, it's a undeniable and proven fact that it was indeed planes without any evidence suggesting otherwise.

I established this fact for MYSELF, I don't need the government to hand me facts to come to this conclusion.