Has the mystery of nine skiers who died half naked in the Siberian wilderness in 1959 been SOLVED? A

reply to post by Astr0


Fun having someone with experience on the topic.

Astr0
reply to post by defcon5

 

Its standard operating procedure of all mountaineers and expeditions to go through the biggest exit with the most potential to get the group out the fastest.

Knife, roof, out.

That bit shows me that there was a very dire threat be it real or imagined.

Well I found some big holes in my own theory.

To this day there has been a discussion of exactly how many people were in this pass on that fateful day. However judging by words of the people involved in the search and who took the lower right picture there were definitely 8- 9 tracks of footprints left by tourists who wore almost no footwear. Their feet pressed the snow and this left a characteristic "columns" of pressed snow with a footprint on top.

Members of the group walked in a single file with a tall men walking in the back. His footprints partially covered footprints of his friends who walked in front of him. Overall the path gave an impression of organized and uneventful descent down the slope of the mountain. Several trails would deviate from the general direction, but then rejoin the group.

Other footprints were also discovered and photographed. It is hard to say if these were left by someone else or rescuers themselves.

therealevidenceoftheparanormal.blogspot.com...

Sure is a very high noise to signal ratio on this subject, no pun intended.*

So about the actual topic, how do we know that infrasound could not induce madness? It seems the very reason this thread was started was immediately dismissed, with no real explanation except "come on, if they could do that we'd know about it". So, on the topic of infrasound possibly causing this event and in light of the absence of radiation in the autopsy report, can anyone explain why it's not worth discussing even the possibility that infrasound could be more intense than the annoying, painful, uncanny, imperceptible, and/or mood/behavior-altering uses for which it is currently, openly (no secret, no conspiracy, just look it up) used?

*Or, as the man said, pun not removed.

reply to post by Char-Lee

Overall the path gave an impression of organized and uneventful descent down the slope of the mountain.

That right there just makes no sense, considering it was below 30 degrees and they were not wearing their shoes.

sepermeru
Sure is a very high noise to signal ratio on this subject, no pun intended.*

So about the actual topic, how do we know that infrasound could not induce madness? It seems the very reason this thread was started was immediately dismissed, with no real explanation except "come on, if they could do that we'd know about it". So, on the topic of infrasound possibly causing this event and in light of the absence of radiation in the autopsy report, can anyone explain why it's not worth discussing even the possibility that infrasound could be more intense than the annoying, painful, uncanny, imperceptible, and/or mood/behavior-altering uses for which it is currently, openly (no secret, no conspiracy, just look it up) used?

*Or, as the man said, pun not removed.

edit on 26-12-2013 by sepermeru because: edit button is my best friend

Ok, so it does seem quite interesting.

In the first controlled experiment of infrasound, Dr Lord and Professor Wiseman played four contemporary pieces of live music, including some laced with infrasound, at a London concert hall and asked the audience to describe their reactions to the music. The audience did not know which pieces included infrasound but 22 per cent reported more unusual experiences when it was present in the music. Their unusual experiences included feeling uneasy or sorrowful, getting chills down the spine or nervous feelings of revulsion or fear. "These results suggest that low frequency sound can cause people to have unusual experiences even though they cannot consciously detect infrasound," said Professor Wiseman, who presented his findings to the British Association science conference.

Source

But the infrasound must have been on a massively different scale if the folks in the concert hall could sit through the concert and report on it later, while the folks on the mountain sliced their way through their tent and ran out half clothed and without footwear, to ultimately die.

Bath Salts
Snow Demons
Possession of some kind
Magnetic Influence on the brain, probably something with that region...Either way they messed up bad

reply to post by sepermeru


I have to say, you're absolutely right. People did more or less summarily dismiss the purpose of the thread to rush into pet theories and new stuff. I discarded it out of ignorance, to be blunt. I am familiar with Ultra-Sound for use in cleaning tools and firearms. It's destructive to organic material. Exceptionally so, over any period of time whatsoever..but also extreme short range for impact and needs a medium more than air to actually DO something aside from being annoying.

I just did some looking on INFRAsound in response to your post and ..wow..I have to rethink that. The OP MAY just be onto something. From what I just read, Elephants use Infrasound for communication at distances thought to range 10 or MORE kilometers. That removes the first reason I wasn't taking sound seriously (range requirements). Multi-Kilometers tends to change that a bit, no?

Next..reading a bit more, I guess they've done some large scale testing...

Infrasound and the Paranormal

Now we have to figure out one thing for that to work, as I see it. How could they have self-induced all injuries noted? Deliberately or by accident and misadventure? If sound cooked their noodles..as it now seems it may actually be fully capable of doing (wow?!) then..in a radically altered state of mind and paranoid of everything in the world around them..what crazy and outright stupid things could, IF anything..have caused what they found?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I find that theory interesting, but there have been theories about “sound weapons” and magnetic frequencies being used to elicit emotions going back to the 80's that I recall, and I'm not sure it can be reliably proven. If you want to look at something interesting that is similar, look into the God Helmet, but again, the claims may be exaggerated. I used to work near running jet engines all the time, which put all sorts of high and low frequencies, their sounds carry for miles, and we never had any problems like this.

reply to post by defcon5


Just to toss this out and add a little bit, I found this experiment they had done in England for Infrasound using a group of 750 people across 2 identical concerts. One had Infrasound elements and the other didn't. I first saw this referenced in Wiki and it's got the most interesting description under human experiments. Never one to take Wiki as a stopping point, but just a start? I hunted down who and how that was done... Here is an MSM story with a bit more clarity...

Infrasound linked to spooky effects

and the last one here is the site and information from the lady who thought up and lead the experiment.

Infrasonic – haunted music?

Fair warning on that last one? While it's the best for detail and real science to how and why it worked...she has the most annoying pagination set up to follow half page text. So you'll have to click the next link a few times to read it all.

It sure has my attention tho. I've heard about the "brown note" for ultra low freq and some other things humans are supposedly open to impact from in this ....but this scale and the sheer distance of the Elephants showing potential? Oh..goodness. That isn't technology I'm happy to hear about, if it could do that clear back in 1959.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Well it didn't affect me, but now my dog is looking at me like she's pissed.
She's got her ears pinned back to the side of her head, and split to another room after a few minutes.

Yeah, the “brown note” rumor has been around for a long time, but again, its like hypnotism, maybe it only effects a limited audience.

reply to post by 4ajodster


I'll offer a rather bizarre theory sparked by the data that some of those victims were not dressed.
I'll be short. Having grown up around a variety of animals including humans acting like animals at times, I project from that long-time of observation.

I venture to supposed that at least one of the women if not others were in their fertile period of the month. We know--at least I do--that when women are fertile they can exclude a particular vibe that some men can detect from across a crowded room. It is almost a sixth sense. In fact it may be a subtle physical scent that has not yet caught the attention of scientific study. Such a concept is not far-fetched because that exact situation exists with about any mammal you car to name. The female body sends a message that she is ready and willing to engage.

In addition, in both animal and humans along with that time there comes for both types, female and male, some incredible abilities of sensory enhancements and most importantly, phenomenal feats of agility and strength along with a willingness to endure pain that would not otherwise be tolerated. In a word, the promise of sex, one way or another makes ordinary creatures into super beings.

I suggest that one or more of the women was in heat--if I can say that--and further venture to suggest that perhaps some--all?--of the couples were engaged in sexual activities that would have presented a cornucopia of stimulating scents to any nearby creature naturally connected to similar scents. --It happens across several animal species. And such scents can carry on the air for miles.

I suggest that a Sasquatch, big foot, Yeti type of creature lives in that area and was attracted to the tents and in a sex-crazed frenzy killed them all in the competitive spirit that drives most mammals to commit acts that they would not normally do otherwise.

If anyone thinks I'm joking in this thread, I most assuredly am not. I recall a story of a Florida version of the Sasquatch creature, called a "skunk ape" down there, that killed a horse once in apparent anger at the owner. But I've never heard of one harming a human although there are some old cases, I've heard about. In my theory here, I'm merely saying that nature took its course and the weaker male humans in attendance lost out to the stronger animal. As for the women being dead also, in the case with pure human-on-human sexual attacks, the female frequent is killed because of resistance.

I trust that while some will be disgusted with what I propose, I hope that all will accept it as an effort in good faith at an attempt to help solve this very puzzling mystery.

defcon5
I used to work near running jet engines all the time, which put all sorts of high and low frequencies, their sounds carry for miles, and we never had any problems like this.

I think the infrasound frequencies hypothesized would be lower than those from a jet engine, so the experience you might need for comparison might be working in windy mountain passes.

Apparently you need large apparatus to make infrasound of very low frequencies. A mountain pass is probably large enough, and wind blowing through it is a possible source. However what it would really take to be more convincing is to actually record the infrasound at Dyatlov pass.

It is interesting that the name the indigenous people call that mountain "Kholat Syakhl" which means mountain of the dead. So, one question that would be interesting to know the answer to is, why do they call it that? If it is because it's prone to producing madness-inducing infrasound that would be interesting, but again special equipment to record the infrasound would be a lot more convincing that infrasound actually occurs there, and following that, one would still need to show the cause and effect relationship.

I'm glad people came back to discussing the true topic of the thread, because I think some dismissed it too easily. As I said before the idea seems somewhat plausible even if the evidence submitted in the OP article is lacking.

Also to answer your earlier question about the tent, it was cut on both the uphill side and cut a lot more on the downhill side (from the inside). Also one thing that I don't see people mentioning is that apparently they used a "furnace" inside the tent, which explains several things. It explains why they dress in light clothing to sleep inside the tent, so the people talking about "being forced to undress" can drop that idea. Investigators were not surprised to see light sleeping attire used inside the tent. (The problem of course was running outside in that light attire)

The furnace may have also been somewhat of a barrier inside the tent. Apparently it was so hot you couldn't get too close to it, because their diary records discussions about changing sleeping arrangements and how it was too hot for the people sleeping too close to the furnace.

reply to post by Aliensun

Since investigators were debating whether they saw 8 or 9 sets of human footprints leaving the tent and could tell whether they were wearing shoes or not, the area was apparently a good record of footprints. Don't you think someone might have noticed Sasquatch footprints?

reply to post by Arbitrageur


They consider aircraft engines to produce “infrasound”, and we had extreme exposure to it being on the ramp right next to the engines.

Infrasound Brief Review of Toxicological Literature November 2001
12.2 Vehicles
Riding in automobiles exposes drivers and passengers to 1 to 20 Hz at up to 120 dB. Exposures while riding in helicopters, other aircraft, submarines, and rockets range from 1 to 20 Hz at 120 to 145 dB. In a free field, diesel engines generate frequencies of 10 to 20 Hz at sound pressure levels up to 110 dB. Jet engines, helicopters, and large rockets generate frequencies of 1 to 20 Hz at 115 to 150 dB (4). In a Finnish survey (5), infrasound levels exceeding 120 dB were found in cars and railway engines. The usual range in vehicles with closed windows was 90 to 110 dB. Infrasound sound pressure levels in aircraft cockpits and cabins ranged from 80 to 100 dB. Ships and aircraft sonic booms are other vehicular sources (1). In Japan, Okada (17) measured infrasound at 83 dB at 20 m from a running truck and 100 dB at 20 m from a running railroad carriage. Thus, persons may be subjected frequently to the annoyance of infrasound exposure if they reside in the vicinity of heavily trafficked areas, railways, airports, or rocket launch sites. Drivers, pilots, and other transportation workers are among those occupations with considerable exposure.

Status of Low-Frequency Aircraft Noise Research and Mitigation
We wouldn't see too many ramp agents stripping down and running around the ramp in their underwear... Well, on most days anyway.

Arbitrageur
It is interesting that the name the indigenous people call that mountain "Kholat Syakhl" which means mountain of the dead. So, one question that would be interesting to know the answer to is, why do they call it that?

Rumor has it that the same thing happened to a party of 9 (yes, the same number) native Indians on the mountain.

I hate to bring that up because I have no idea if its true or just a myth, and it immediately throws people into the “paranormal” aspect vs looking for other possible reasonable answers.

It's 1959, the Cold War is raging, massive R&D is being under-taken into the next big thing in weapons.

Army goes out in the middle of the night to a very remote area of the planet (just happens to be in USSR) to test out their new death-ray. Unknown to them are a group of campers who get caught up in the middle of things, either during the testing or whilst the Army are on the way to the test area.

Because the weapon is uber-top-secret, they can't be left alive. Given the accidental discovery of these people, and the fact they will be killed anyway - why not a live fire test against them?

The only problem is why no apparent record of anything except tracks made by the campers...

Given this is the SU in 1959, were all the facts recorded? Were some facts invented?

Was it an early version of this? en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by defcon5

That's a good source, and note it says this:

The primary effect of infrasound in humans appears to be annoyance (24-26). To achieve a given amount of annoyance, low frequencies were found to require greater sound pressure than with higher frequencies

So again, I say that wind through a mountain pass has a better chance of fulfilling this requirement from your own source, than jet engines. Of course "annoyance" is probably too mild a word to describe the hypothesis in the OP, but it does sound like an extreme extension of "annoyance".

Here is a graph of the frequency distribution showing how much the sound pressure level drops off below 5000 Hz (See 4.2: Jet Noise):

fluid.nuae.nagoya-u.ac.jp...


So yes, there may be low frequencies from jets, but proportionally speaking, not much and not enough to cause annoyance. Probably proportionally more when the engines are first started because there is less high frequency at that point, but at operating speed, the graph shows infrasound frequencies do not dominate. In a mountain pass, it's conceivable they might, under certain conditions.

Char-Lee

Stormdancer777
reply to post by Astr0

 

But the cold doesn't explain all the injuries.

youtu.be...

edit on 103131p://bThursday2013 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)

"If the military were involved, why would they not simply disappear the bodies instead of finding them."

besides the radiation and rumors, what would make 9 people do what they did?


yes, they would be alive and in siberia,
if the military were involve in that attack.

makes no sense to kill them all, so brutally, either.

no rocket launch, no military, no drug/sound induced psychosis, no avalanche, no hypothermia induced crazy, did something to these people.
what's left?

locals? no. why would they? there would be tracks all over the place. unless 1 was chuck norris.

ufo's? lol. front runner.

animal? big foot? can't see a bear spooking 9 people and killing them all. 9 people against a wild animal? no contest.
a bear would be snuggled up in their lair, that time of year.
bigfoot's russian cousin is in 2nd place. nose to nose with the ufo.

this has been gone over before on ats, fascinating mystery.
these were not noobs out there.

tsingtao
locals? no. why would they? there would be tracks all over the place.

Well if there is a small number of outsiders the number of tracks would have just gotten lost in the mix. There was no formal investigation of the tracks because they originally expected to find the folks alive, so it wasn't treated as a crime scene until it had been already walked all over by the first search party.

The fact that no valuables were taken is what best points to locals not being involved, its also part of why I like the “spy contact” theory. If it was a contact gone bad, the contact would have only taken anything that could be shown to be evidence of their having been there.

______________________________

There is NO WAY that 10 people could stay sane in a tent
made for two ! esp. in sub zero temp. x 20 ish yr.olds at that.
This is a photo of the tent :
(somebody please imbed/thank-you)
Photo of the tent
Then there's the . . TEN 20 ish yr olds :
Who in their right mind would be caught dead crammed into a tent
made for two with . . . with someone who looks like a character from
the shining or "chain saw massacre.
Neither what they were wearing, was not sufficient for weather of
22 degrees below zero.
These were a bunch of rowdy kids who had absolutely no clue
in what they were getting into. There is no "mystery" here,
just stupidity and inexperience.

some more info and pix


________________________________________

ToneDeaf
There is NO WAY that 10 people could stay sane in a tent
made for two !

The tent looks ridiculously small, but its not as small as you think. Its actually two tents sown together. We used to use similar A-frame style tents in the Boy Scouts, and I believe that they were three or four man tents with quite a lot of room for gear. So you have room to sleep nine cramped, however as they were using a stove, they most likely had a couple on rotating watch all night to fuel the stove and make sure it didn't start the tent on fire. So you would have 7 in a 6 to 8 man tent, which isn't too bad.