The 10,000 year old civilization which was more advanced than us

reply to post by Gazrok


But Hiroshima is recent history. If you think anything > 10.000 BC (I would say way more than that) plus possible drastic environmental changes during all this time you simply can't know if there would be something left at all.

The only way to know would be by going to Hiroshima 10.000 years or more from now.

Also we like some much the idea of being a technological advanced civilization that most simply discard everything else.

A past civilization much more advanced than our own would make a better use of organic, biodegradable, recyclable materials and have a much more harmonic relation with it's eco-system. This would lead to a pretty low environmental impact which added with the time frame in question here and drastic climatic changes throughout all this period could indeed lead to a point where not traces whatsoever are left to be found.

Anyway...

reply to post by thomas_


Unfortunately we do have a good idea of how much survives from civilizations - based on what we've found of previous ones.

All civilizations use stone tools and they essentially last forever. We found habitation sites going back 100,000s of thousands of years, 400,000 year old wooden javelin, etc. Even an 'eco' civilization would have had a precursor development period and unless they went back and dug everything up - we'd find it.

Usually the claim that "nothing would survive" is made by people completely ignornant of archaeology and geology...and wishing to come up with something to deflect the lack of evidence.

If you disturb the earth the soil retains the memory of that (driving a stake in or digging it up, placing a foundation on top of it or building a fire) for an extremely long time - as do sediments which contains pollen which reflects how humans modify the enivornment.

Ever wonder how long a cut gem would last?

Originally posted by Hanslune
Even an 'eco' civilization would have had a precursor development period and unless they went back and dug everything up - we'd find it.

science can't finds its own a ss with both hands.

in 2005 western science disvovered a 1800hectare city beside a major highway from which it had been clearly visible for 3+ky.

science is as science does.

At some point in our past history, time unknown, I'm sure there was the possibility that there was technology that existed far beyond what we are currently using.

There is too much evidence that we humans came from beings from another world.

There are stones out there in this world that were moved, and we still don't have the technology that could enable us to move them.

People in the old days had to be just like people now. Lots of people including junk dealers come in and take anything of value, and just leave the junk; this has happened all through history, that is why stuff that existed, now doesn't exist.

If the Pyramids of Egypt didn't have such big heavy stones, they would have been scrapped. People did scrap out the exterior facing stones and currently use them in cities that exist today, but few people are aware of that.

We can look at the Santa Fe trail and the Oregon Trail here in the USA. Hundreds of thousands of people traveled those trails, and if people would not have written about them or told about them verbally, then basically there would be no memmory of such trails, except for historical markers that exist here and there along the trails.

People would not believe there were cowboys and indians a hundred years ago. Or that the Jesuits and Roman Catholics came here to the promised land and enslaved the indigenous indians in order to collect gold and silver.

Who would believe that black people were slaves 150 years ago?

To say that advanced technology didn't exist before that compares to todays technology is crazy.

When the UN was making some of the tunnels with their deep tunneling machines and making DUMBs Deep Underground Military Bases; they accidentally tunneled into an ancient tunnel that was made exactly like they are making them now, and then they decided from the remains discovered that they had better start tunneling deeper.

In Oklahoma, there is a large ancient city that was discovered and the government came in and bulldozed it over so that it could not be seen at the surface any more, because if it became known, all of the history books would have to be rewritten. I saw the photos of the ancient city made out of stone blocks, similar to the Incas, and now it is all covered over.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by RussianScientists]

Hans: Yet the Sanskrit tradition hasn't been embued with the skills you seem to be assigning to it. Yes revision of history has been occurring but Vedic science hasn't received credit for what you are proposing.

Actually, none of what I have attributed to the Sankrit tradition regarding microbiology, computer science, binary logic is controversial. These texts exist, are thousands of years old, are part of a living tradition and have been available to the West for centuries. They have been studied extensively and there are numerous books on them.

As for receiving credit this is a appeal to authority fallacy. Just because does not receive credit does not make it invalid, it just means the authority has not given it credit. However, things are gradually changing. Earlier we were told was the Arabs that created the modern decimal system and today is widely conceded that it is the Sanskrit tradition. Likewise with binary numbers, linguistics, Psychology and Philosophy in general. It is because the previous eurocentric view in history is being challenged and revised by modern historians.

Hans: Who? Name and publication from peer reviewed source. Truth is always respectable. If you've noticed that science has made a rather large number of advances, all by people pushing the fringe. The only reason to no publish evidence based facts is because their are no evidence. Considering that scientists with this information could publish within India itself this seems odd.

Hans, actually India this has been taken so seriously, it has been investigated officially and with the cooirdination of the highest scientific authorities and institutions of India. Not only that that it has been done in the open and the results have been conclusive and are availlable in the public domain and also published in India's most prestigious science journals.

Some examples: An ancient Sanskrit text called the Amsu Bodhini, stored at India most prestigious Sanskrit achive: Library of Oriental Institute of Vadodara on cosmology and astrophysics, composed by the same author of the controversial Vymanika Shastra has been investigated officially by India's scientific authories and one of the 5 spectrometers mentioned in the text have been built according to its specifications and patented and published in a peer-reviewed journals, one of India's most prestigious science journals INSA. You can access that study here:

www.new.dli.ernet.in...


There is another study references in the above article itself which I had translated from Hindi in my thread "Vedic Physics" I cannot find that at the moment, but I do recall somebody posting the journal article in a debate once. I will keep looking and see if I can find it.

By the way this has also been confirmed in the media:

A glass-like material based on technology found in an ancient
Sanskrit text that could ultimately be used in a stealth bomber (the
material cannot be detected by radar) has been developed by a
research scholar of Benaras Hindu University.

Prof M A Lakshmithathachar, Director of the Academy of Sanskrit
Research in Melkote, near Mandya, told Deccan Herald that tests
conducted with the material showed radars could not detect it. "The
unique material cannot be traced by radar and so a plane coated with
it cannot be detected using radar," he said.

The academy had been commissioned by the Aeronautical Research
Development Board, New Delhi, to take up a one-year study, `Non-
conventional approach to Aeronautics,' on the basis of an old text,
Vaimanika Shastra, authored by Bharadwaj.

Though the period to which Bharadwaj belonged to is not very clear,
Prof Lakshmithathachar noted, the manuscripts might be more 1,000
years old.
The project aims at deciphering the Bharadwaj's concepts in aviation.
However, Prof Lakshmithathachar was quick to add that a
collaborative effort from scholars of Sanskrit, physics, mathematics
and aeronautics is needed to understand Bharadwaj's shastra.

The country's interest in aviation can be traced back over 2,000
years to the mythological era and the epic Ramayana tells of a
supersonic-type plane, the Pushpak Vimana, which could fly at the
speed of thought.

www.indiadivine.org...

As the article is old it is no longer extant, but I have linked a forum where it was archived for discussion.

I do apology as I came to this discussion late, however I don't recall where the links were to the Sanskrit documents that have these wonders in them and their translations; the orthodox one and shall we call it the Indigo friendly translations, would you please re-link those to me please- or did I understand I understand your exchange with Harte to mean there are no such links?

I have produced earlier on this thread a medical journal article on Sanskrit embroyology. I also referenced a book by a team of scientists, "Computer science in ancient India" headed by academics from California, Berkley universities, USA. I quoted from the actual texts the sections on microbes and classification and then I corroborated it with academic professionals who have also cited the same stuff and are qualfiied experts in it. I will be corroborating even further. As nothing can be proven over the internet, all I can do is provide the materials to you and corroborate it as far as I can within the limitations of the internet, and then the rest is open to your investigation. I do not expect you to be convinced, but at least consider it strongly given the weight of the evidence.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

Back in 2003, I had an epiphany...the city I was living in, Chicago, is much older than is commonly believed, and no way in Hell did these idiots build this place in 180 years. I have reason to believe that these ancient cities and advanced civilizations are our own. You may not be reading an ancient document, according to time, but a document that comes from a different dimension of reality; It must of have escaped destruction somehow. Or perhaps even it was purposely left for us to find it as a way mock us and test whether we are aware that our worlds were captured and destroyed and replaced with the world you currently reside.

I figure it like this...if you look at most information regarding the city of Chicago, it was incorporated in 1837. They also provide a brief history and a story about some guy named du Sable, taking the cities story to the early 1800s. But, I once saw a French map from the late 1600s that sure enough the city of Chicago is there. So, just with info I uncovered Chicago goes from being 200 years old to 330 years old, minimum.

The fact is I don't know how old any of these places is, I only know what the available information says. Mexico city is at least 3000 years old.

Even this technology I am currently using appeared too quickly for me to believe it hasn't always existed. Everytime I look at an airplane coming in for a landing or a space shuttle taking off, it's difficult for me to accept the idea that air flight is only 100 years old.

What if the Sears Tower is 500 years old? What would a person use to prove me wrong? Why should I trust their source?

I haven't even come close to determining the truth, but I will say that time isn't what it appears to be and we don't have as much control over our perception of time and reality...it can, apparently, be manipulated to make one believe a lie.

Originally posted by huckfinn
What if the Sears Tower is 500 years old? What would a person use to prove me wrong? Why should I trust their source?

Metallurgy perhaps? After 500 years it'd have considerable rust on its 75,000+ tonnes of steel, especially if you "forgot" when you checked it over last. Not to mention that amount of steel would probably have far exceeded the production of a country, or half the world for that matter. In other words, it would have been quite noticable in our history. Or we have to assume that the entire history of the world is wrong (and by that I do mean *entire*, as in everything from today and backwards) .

Btw I find your 17th French map with the city of Chicago quite unlikely since there where only Indians there at the time, source?



[edit on 3-4-2009 by merka]

Ever since I was a kid I always thought that some of the places where iron ore bodies are excavated could actually be the remains of some ancient city's trash dump.

Our big cities have huge trash dumps, and centuries from now people will be mining them for the iron and other metals that will be found mixed into the sediments. They will have huge mining machinery just like we have now that destroys any evidence that could prove this possible.

reply to post by merka


I can't find it right now, but it was from a 1688 map. around the same time lake michigan was called lake dauphin. You know after the King's son.

concerning the indians, that was harsh...have you ever considered that the only images you have in your mind of native americans are the ones that were produced after your ancestors betrayed, murdered and sent the survivors to live in teepee's in the wilderness.

they already had cities and villages, you are living in them now.

here's a more plausibe scenario...everything and place that exists now has always existed. The only changes that have been made are not reality, but our perception of reality.

When you murder the parents of an infant and replace them with adoptive parents, you can convince that child of just about anything. but only for a time...as the child will eventually realize what is going on and will proceed to dismantle your world. as is happening right now.

Go, see for yourself and tell me that your world is not being destroyed at this very moment. So, instead of providing you with a source to prove my point you will be made to suffer the most miserable existence you can possibly imagine and then you'll die.

The hell that's been built will be your proof and your source.

Just a thought that I wanted to share. I will put forth the idea that we are NOT am advanced civilization. We are a technological advanced civilization, but far from being an advanced. Some people seem to think just because we can use technology, that makes us intelligent. I disagree

-we still do war
-we still allow people to die (when measures could be taken to help them)
-we resort to thievery
-we enjoy others peoples despair and misery
-we rape and abuse children

This list can go on. Not very advanced thinking there,. So we solved some problems with tech, it does not mean it is the only way to solve problems.

Ancients could have used crystals, or shook their balls a certain amount of time, who knows, but ancients were here X amount of years ago, and they did things differently.

We dont know how, and that is what we are trying to figure out. We waste precious words and time debating that we are the most technological superior race that has formed on this planet, not allowing for other forms of thinking. That is wrong way to approach the subject. Just because YOU cant imagine another way of doing things, doesnt mean there isnt,.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
The sanskrit tradition far surpasses the 1500's and this is why it is anomolous. Would you consider modern computer science theory 2500 years ago or even older to be anomolus?

See this is what I mean....they used a binary system of counting and today you suggest they had understood "modern computer science theory". This is like a person discovers that willow bark helps their pain and we suggest today that they had the knowledge of a modern pharmaceutical company.

Binary is a very simple system hence why computers first used them.

reply to post by Hanslune



Unfortunately, hans, you have absolutely very little idea about what went on past a few thousand years. Your concrete platform is nothing more than speculation and groups of like minded people agreeing to agree.

Like your signature, all that you consider to be worth trusting in is at best speculation.

Look me up in a couple of years and we can review these issues with clarity. Till then, try to not have a closed mind.

Howdy RussianScientists

At some point in our past history, time unknown, I'm sure there was the possibility that there was technology that existed far beyond what we are currently using.

Hans: You can certainly think that but the evidence we have now says that didn’t happen

There is too much evidence that we humans came from beings from another world.

Hans: Zero evidence for that and overwhelming evidence for our evolution here

There are stones out there in this world that were moved, and we still don't have the technology that could enable us to move them.

Hans: All can be moved by man and all can certainly be moved today. That little piece of nonsense came originally from Sitchin, he is very wrong

People in the old days had to be just like people now. Lots of people including junk dealers come in and take anything of value, and just leave the junk; this has happened all through history, that is why stuff that existed, now doesn't exist.

Hans: Yes that is true, so why do we find things for tens of thousands of years ago? Habitations and other disturbance of the soil and pollen in sedimentation, ice cores all speak against ancient advanced civilizations

If the Pyramids of Egypt didn't have such big heavy stones, they would have been scrapped. People did scrap out the exterior facing stones and currently use them in cities that exist today, but few people are aware of that.

Hans: A number of pyramids were completely stripped down but even then their foundations survived

We can look at the Santa Fe trail and the Oregon Trail here in the USA. Hundreds of thousands of people traveled those trails, and if people would not have written about them or told about them verbally, then basically there would be no memmory of such trails, except for historical markers that exist here and there along the trails.

Hans: There are still physical traces of the trails, from rock carvings, burials and ruts-plus the DNA evidence

People would not believe there were cowboys and indians a hundred years ago. Or that the Jesuits and Roman Catholics came here to the promised land and enslaved the indigenous indians in order to collect gold and silver. Who would believe that black people were slaves 150 years ago?

Hans: Yes they would there is extensive archaeological evidence for that

To say that advanced technology didn't exist before that compares to todays technology is crazy.

Hans: Nope, its following the evidence instead of making stuff up

When the UN was making some of the tunnels with their deep tunneling machines and making DUMBs Deep Underground Military Bases; they accidentally tunneled into an ancient tunnel that was made exactly like they are making them now, and then they decided from the remains discovered that they had better start tunneling deeper.

Hans: An excellent example of made up stuff! LOL...oh this old conspiracy theory is usually assigned to the US government not the UN....

reply to post by Hanslune


Hanslune, you sure like to brag a lot for someone that doesn't know the truth when they see it.

At some point in our past history, time unknown, I'm sure there was the possibility that there was technology that existed far beyond what we are currently using.

Hans: You can certainly think that but the evidence we have now says that didn’t happen

Where is your evidence?

There is too much evidence that we humans came from beings from another world.

Hans: Zero evidence for that and overwhelming evidence for our evolution here

Zero evidence for that if you don't read what the clay tablets that have been found all over the world have stated. The Kolbrin manuscripts and other ancient manuscripts found in India as stated by others say you haven't opened your mind on very much that existed before.

There are stones out there in this world that were moved, and we still don't have the technology that could enable us to move them.

Hans: All can be moved by man and all can certainly be moved today. That little piece of nonsense came originally from Sitchin, he is very wrong

Sitchin had nothing to do with the 300 ton stones, nor the 800 ton stone that is currently all over the internet that no machinery that exists today can lift, let alone set into place. Sitchin was very right, closed minded people like yourself are very wrong.

People in the old days had to be just like people now. Lots of people including junk dealers come in and take anything of value, and just leave the junk; this has happened all through history, that is why stuff that existed, now doesn't exist.

Hans: Yes that is true, so why do we find things for tens of thousands of years ago? Habitations and other disturbance of the soil and pollen in sedimentation, ice cores all speak against ancient advanced civilizations

The NSA at Lake Vostok in Antacrtica states otherwise.

If the Pyramids of Egypt didn't have such big heavy stones, they would have been scrapped. People did scrap out the exterior facing stones and currently use them in cities that exist today, but few people are aware of that.

Hans: A number of pyramids were completely stripped down but even then their foundations survived

There are foundations, but there is no evidence that they were stripped down to their foundations. The foundations show no evidence of rocks being laid upon them in the past.

We can look at the Santa Fe trail and the Oregon Trail here in the USA. Hundreds of thousands of people traveled those trails, and if people would not have written about them or told about them verbally, then basically there would be no memmory of such trails, except for historical markers that exist here and there along the trails.

Hans: There are still physical traces of the trails, from rock carvings, burials and ruts-plus the DNA evidence

TRACES yes, otherwise it is gone.

People would not believe there were cowboys and indians a hundred years ago. Or that the Jesuits and Roman Catholics came here to the promised land and enslaved the indigenous indians in order to collect gold and silver. Who would believe that black people were slaves 150 years ago?

Hans: Yes they would there is extensive archaeological evidence for that

What achaeological evidence that can prove that occured?

To say that advanced technology didn't exist before that compares to todays technology is crazy.

Hans: Nope, its following the evidence instead of making stuff up

It's following your own nose that doesn't poke around, and your nearsightedness doesn't help you physique either.

When the UN was making some of the tunnels with their deep tunneling machines and making DUMBs Deep Underground Military Bases; they accidentally tunneled into an ancient tunnel that was made exactly like they are making them now, and then they decided from the remains discovered that they had better start tunneling deeper.

Hans: An excellent example of made up stuff! LOL...oh this old conspiracy theory is usually assigned to the US government not the UN....

There are several governments that are in on it, but it can be proven that the UN paid people to create the DUMB's. Nothing is made up, except your lack of believing in stuff that others have found, and stuff that others have done. You need to get out of that turtle shell and get a little tan on your neck.

Howdy RS

At some point in our past history, time unknown, I'm sure there was the possibility that there was technology that existed far beyond what we are currently using.

Hans: Yes that is possible but our present evidence doesn’t support it existence, until evidence is found all you have is a possibility.

Where is your evidence?

Hans: You want evidence of the non-existence evidence you don’t have? I cannot prove a negative my friend. You have to provide evidence to support your hypnothesis.

Zero evidence for that if you don't read what the clay tablets that have been found all over the world have stated.

Hans: They say no such thing, you can read them on line yourself instead of believing what you’ve been told to believe by fringe writers, do the research yourself don’t blindly accept what others tell you to believe.

The Kolbrin manuscripts and other ancient manuscripts found in India as stated by others say you haven't opened your mind on very much that existed before.

Hans: The Kobrin manuscript? oh my – basing your opinions on frauds, fakes and distortions will lead you to some odd ideas.


Previous comment left in for context [Hans: All can be moved by man and all can certainly be moved today. That little piece of nonsense came originally from Sitchin, he is very wrong]

Sitchin had nothing to do with the 300 ton stones, nor the 800 ton stone that is currently all over the internet that no machinery that exists today can lift, let alone set into place.

Hans: Laughing, yep well I guess you don’t know that the Russians moved a 1,600 ton stone in historic times without machinery? You need to do some basic research. Sitchin popularize that idea, he made it up and after 35 years it is still on his website, demonstrating his gross incompetent to all!

Sitchin was very right, closed minded people like yourself are very wrong.

Hans: No Sitchin was so wrong its terribly embarrassing, so you saying that mankind of today cannot move three hundred tons? LOL

Previous comment left for context [Hans: Yes that is true, so why do we find things for tens of thousands of years ago? Habitations and other disturbance of the soil and pollen in sedimentation, ice cores all speak against ancient advanced civilizations]

The NSA at Lake Vostok in Antacrtica states otherwise.

Hans: Sorry Russianscientists but your answer makes no sense whatsoever. Try again

There are foundations, but there is no evidence that they were stripped down to their foundations. The foundations show no evidence of rocks being laid upon them in the past.

Hans: That is a very weird statement and contradicts your previous comment. You seem to be in a knee jerk reaction mode to just disagree with whatever I say, even if it makes no sense, LOL

TRACES yes, otherwise it is gone.

Hans: Which will be detectable for tens of thousands of years. If you are an archaeologists 10,000 years in future how would you explain the DNA of skeletons of people from Europe and Africa showing up in the Americas?

What achaeological evidence that can prove that occured?

Hans: Look up excavations of Slavery/trading camps in Africa, nautical recovery of sunken slave ships and relics of slavery all over the world

It's following your own nose that doesn't poke around, and your nearsightedness doesn't help you physique either.

Hans: I’d recommend you read books instead of fringe websites.

Now instead of continuing with vague generalities I suggest we pick three topics to get into in depth.

I'd suggest stone moving and you can pick the other two, try and pick something that has actual evidence to support it not just your opinion or the opinion of a fringe website.

reply to post by Gazrok


i'm thinking 9000 years old rather than 900. it's pre-adamic, i believe, just based on the info i've collected.

captainron,

impression i get is the vimanas were past the gross mechanical stage. the pilots were flying them with the power of thought. so apparently a mind-machine interface, if anything "mechanical" existed.

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by Gazrok

 

i'm thinking 9000 years old rather than 900. it's pre-adamic, i believe, just based on the info i've collected.

I think Homo sapiens are pretty much set in the time line as we have seen with really no hidden advance civilization, and so I would think we would need to go back much farther (billion year?) to a totally different species…maybe one we descended from after their civilization basically became extinct.

Just to put in my 2 cents.

This is not a topic I normally follow on any kind of regular basis, but do find interesting and from time to time check in to see what is being discussed. As is normal with the overwhelming majority of threads on ATS, there is always a tension between "true believers" and skeptics, which so long as civility is observed, constitutes a healthy debate.

On this particular subject, though, I think the two sides should both yield slightly and give each other a bit more credit. I have no strong opinion one way or the other and in any event haven't the time, interest, or inclination to pore over modern translations of ancient Sanskrit texts and engage in lengthy research in an attempt to divine the truth.

Here's what I DO think, though. There are tantalizing bits to indicate that an ancient civilisation with advanced technology may have existed.

1. The ancient texts (as well as Plato's mention of Atlantis) DO resonate in today's world. That doesn't constitute proof of anything at all, but I do find it intriguing. Since I'm not arguing specifics, I won't get into how old or authentic a particular text might be, how accurate the translation, or whether people might be reading things into it that just aren't there...I'll leave that to the "experts" on that subject who have taken the time to become so.

2. Our modern high-tech world is built of materials much less durable than those that the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, and others even older used. They built in solid stone. We build in steel (rusts away in fairly short order), concrete (deteriorates and crumbles relatively rapidly), glass (lasts forever but over time gets ground down and broken up by freezing/thawing, impact, etc.). All our other building materials are things like wood, drywall, etc. that degrade to nothing within less than 1 person's lifetime if not maintained.

3. Our records today are on generally high-acid paper, compact disc, and magnetic media. How long do you think these will last compared to clay tablets and stone carvings?

There was a show on the History Channel not long ago that speculated on what the world would look like if Man one day simply ceased to exist. After 10,000 years pretty much nothing would be left of our modern high-tech civilisation. It would be ALMOST as if we had never existed at all. A culture that builds skyscrapers will vanish much, much more quickly than one that builds pyramids. And remember, that is if we simply disappear or abandon our cities some day. Not if we blast each other into oblivion and leave that much less behind to deteriorate in the first place.

4. And one last consideration...we are talking about a civilisation that is (reputedly) a minimum of 10.000 years old...more likely 12,000 years ago or more. That places it during the last Ice Age. High-Tech people would have by default been concentrated in the Tropics and had little reason to interact with Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons in the ice-bound northern latitudes. As well, their war-devastated major cities would most likely have been concentrated in coastal areas, as ours are today, and now be under hundreds of feet of water. As it happens, another thing which intrigues me are the periodic reports of sonar discoveries of undersea megalithic structures in various locations on continental shelf areas around the world.

My personal position is that I don't consider any actual proof whatsoever to have been provided for these ancient civilisations, but I find the available evidence to be just interesting and compelling enough to keep me checking back from time to time. As the saying goes, where there's smoke there's fire.

And I think that's something which both sides should consider. Forgive me if I've been long-winded.

And that's all I have to say about that...

reply to post by Gazrok


Gazrok,

Give yourself some applause!

Your analysis is very solid and I have to agree. We simply do not have the preponderance of physical remnants that support the theory of prior civilizations more advanced than our own.

The most intriguing evidence for advanced past civilizations comes from the monolithic architecture of the ancient world--the pyramids at Giza, the Baalbek stones, the Peruvian cities, and certain surviving maps from the early Renaissance which indicate a far greater ancient knowledge of navigation and exploration than what was known at that time.

I am not averse to the idea that these anomalies indicate advanced cultures that predate our Mesopotamian-centric civilization model, but at the same time there is no indication that such cultures were more technologically advanced than today--the only traces they have left us are these remarkable stone monuments, but this indicates nothing more in the end than an advanced stone-working culture with astronomical preoccupations.

We have romanticized many of these ancient cultures, particularly the Maya, beyond anything the evidence warrants. Their calendar is a great and fascinating achievement, but it does not have the support in actual advanced artifacts to warrant the advanced culture many seek to place upon the Maya. I have lived nearly two years in the Mayan area of Mexico and have visited the major mayan sites, and they do not show an advanced civilization--a fascinating one, but one that was indeed primitive in comparison to then-contemporary European civilization.

The Incan empire, for example, apparently never profited from the wheel--excepting one known artifact of a toy llama with wheels meant for a child.