The 10,000 year old civilization which was more advanced than us

So what we have here is text that is interpreted with association to modern technology. So the text describes bugs that may affect our health and we assume they mean viruses and germs. It seems people tend to take great leaps in their assumptions just to prove a point.

The other side of this is how they applied this in their everyday life. Were they using genetic engineering to modify their children, were they producing even simple penicillin and other drugs to fight diseases, did they perform successful operations etc? With all this advance knowledge was their lifespan increased to what we have today or greater as an average?

Before anyone starts debating advance civilizations there needs to be some evidence that their living was advance in some way. I would suggest that some civilizations were well advanced to the average of the their era, but to say there was a civilization more or equal to the 1500s and later would be a hard sell.

The main reason is the absence of communication and low population (isolation).

Now to say a civilization in 4000BC was more advance than those in 2000BC is a huge discovery, but this doesn’t provide the sensationalism that many here seem to want to post about. The problem is our civilization around the 1400 year mark finally reached the point where population was large enough to connect the world as a whole. The ability to communicate within an extremely large population set us on an exponential growth of knowledge that today we are advancing at a rate that a few years would equal to a few 1000 years in the past.

Just think of our advancement from 1AD to 1500AD, then from 1500 to 1800, then 1800 to 1900, then 1900 to 1940, then 1940 to 1960, then 1960 to 1980AD, then 1980 to 1990, then 1990 to 2000. We are doing in ten years today what was 100(s) not too long ago, and 1000s not that far in our past.

To suggest there was an advance civilization that had this ability too I would need a lot more empirical data that is just not there. Also to suggest that a civilization was capable to maintain and continually build their knowledge base without losing any of it over 1000s of years using primitive methods to preserve it so that they have this knowledge growth over 10,000(s) of years is also rather hard point to sell too.

If they didn't have either of these two abilities just how did they advance?



[edit on 1-4-2009 by Xtrozero]

Debunkers are 100% right this time.

After millions of years we still find dinosaurs with food leftovers in their mouths or stomachs, after dozens of thousands of years we can still find remains of wooden tools of the first men… Don’t you think that we could also find numerous artifacts of a super advanced civilization?

Even if we all die in a nuclear holocaust tomorrow, the Earth will remain disfigured by scars of our civilization – forever! Parts made of non-corrosive metals, glass, plastics, construction leftovers (buildings, shelters, road network), large scale earthwork (mines, tunnels, canals, artificial islands), waste dumps, chemical and radioactive pollution – all these things will last as long as the planet.
There is no evidence of an advanced civilization… All we have are comic books painted on stone walls and fairy tales written on clay tablets.

I think this theory is not good because, well, if there were advanced civilization they would have some kind of storage device, they wouldnt paint in a stone ... they would have a better way to showing their history

I'm not taking the woo woo side here, but let's not forget that Indigo Child is not proposing that the ancient cultures of the Indian subcontinent were advanced.

I.C.'s proposition is that the Vedas include some evidence that some of these stories appear to have originated with a possibly far more advanced culture than we think.

Of course, the proposition's weakest point is the lack of evidence, and I would also add that to my mind, there's simply no way to keep anything like an oral tradition going for a hundred thousand years (the advanced civilization supposedly existed prior to the last ice age in this proposal.)

Harte

I have collected some information I could find on the web to corroborate what I said about Vedic medicine. My main focus has been on the microbiology sections:

www.dhanwantriayurveda.com...

The susceptibility or non-susceptibility of disease depends upon vyadhikshamtva even though the person is exposed to Krimi (protozoal,viral, bacterial or fungal) or other etiological factors of disease.

www.ayurgoa.com...

Ayurveda considers micro-organisms as one of the causes of the disease. Ayurveda describes them as krimi. They are classified into 20 types. Some of them are invisible. Some of them are beneficial to body. Ayurveda also describes some of them as rakshasa.and massive eradication of these rakshasas is recommended. Fumigation of operation theatre by burning some herbs is one of the examples of these eradicative procedures.

But Ayurveda doesn’t give them prime importance. The importance is to the underlying environment beneficial for microbes to grow. Our oral cavity (mouth) contains millions of bacteria. We ingest a lot of bacteria). They come in contact with our body every second via skin, via air, food drink etc. but still we are not always ill. Nor every one of us falls ill even in epidemics. So there is something beyond bacteria. And this is body’s resistance. Our body is made up of three main factors called as Dosha, dhatus and mala. Now out of this Dosha are the basic vitiating factors and if they are stable the person is healthy. When these doshas which are 3 in number (vaata, pitta, kapha) get disturbed they vitiate other two factors. Whenever these vitiated factors are formed in the body them the micro-organism can invade the body and produce disease. Ayurveda considers deha or body as the fields and the bacteria as the seeds and gives importance to field then the seeds. If the field is fertile for the seeds then only the seeds can grow. Similarly if the body is weak then the diseases ca crop up. Same is with the mind. Ayurveda, therefore while treating a disease, the importance is given to the promotion of health of doshas and dhatus, and not upon destroying the microbes.

www.naturalhealthweb.com...

Therefore when two or three doshas become severely vitiated and combined, they produce interaction between them. In such conditions opposite qualities, instead of nullifying each other interact and produce a toxic substance. ( Ash. Su. 13 /26) Krimi visha -Bacterial toxins When an infection is caused by the pathogenic organisms, they liberate a toxic substance. Properties of ama : It is always in the form of incompletely digested substance Hence it is non-homogenous, has a very bad or foul odor which can be experienced only when it is combined with excretory products such as sweat, urine, and feces, or when products such as sputum, vomit, etc., are expelled from the body. It is very sticky. it produces lethargy in the body. Symptoms of ama : Srotorodha -Obstruction- This can occur in any large, small, or minute channel, when it is indicated by stagnation and disturbance in transport, and metabolism can occur even at the cellular level.

ayurveda-foryou.com...

1) Charaka first described Multiple sclerosis, Alzheimer’s disease, Myasthenia Gravis, Parkinson’s diseases etc conditions in great precision including the pathology, prognosis and management and even today the medical Science could surely benefit from this classical treatise. These neurological disorders have increased and now the medical fraternity has started research and I would like to state that it is time we seriously considered the contributions of this wizard, which would make the life of many patients better in many ways. Many common chronic conditions like diabetes, tuberculosis, leprosy, heart /kidney problems and prevalent viral diseases, eye/ear/nose/throat diseases have all been explained.

(2) He has described microorganisms as causative factors for leprosy, tuberculosis, influenza, dental caries and some types of fevers and also mentions that microorganisms are present in the intestines, the whole of the alimentary tract and cardiovascular system and diseases manifest when the immunity lowers. Great importance is given to enhance immunity than administering antibiotics.

3) The contributions of Charaka in genetics are worth exploring. Genetic engineering to change the sex of the fetus has also been described. The microscopic structures like genes; chromosomes; DNA and RNA have all been described. What factors other than genes are responsible for unique characteristics have also been expounded. Least explored section in Ayurveda known as Arista lakshana and shareera sthana have statements, which are based on genetics. Charaka has explained many procedures like panchakarma, rasayana, sadvrtha etc, which undoubtedly transform the genes to behave beneficially. Charaka states that Alzheimer’s is passed on to the off spring by the father’s genes.

4) Many hereditary conditions have been discussed; con- sanguine marriages have been discouraged and stated to be the cause for many disorders. Diabetes is among many other conditions listed as hereditary.

5) Preventive aspects have been given so much of importance that Ayurveda has also been thought to be more preventive than curative. Diet and other habits have been analyzed in great detail and categorically stated as to what are to be followed and what are to be avoided and today conventional medical Science has time and again proved all these to be true.

6) Anti aging has been researched very well and many scientific aspects of it have been described in totality-which has today caught the medical world’s fancy and the research in this field has started.

7) Charaka was fully aware of the impact of the environment on the health of living beings so he advises how & why the environment should be maintained in perfect order. (Read article Homa –how scientific?)

8)We find references, which show that referring surgical cases to surgeons was in vogue even during Charka’s time. Dhanwantari was the well-known surgical school of the day then.

9) Statistical approach in Charaka samhita is based on keen observation, scientific analysis conducted for many years on many thousands of individuals, irrespective of religion, region, time, age, stage of diseases, etc factors. Charaka like all other ancient seers believed strongly that –one man’s food is another man’s poison .No two individuals, nor two siblings, or identical twins share similar qualities, similar upbringing or environment or similar genetic pattern nor likes, dislikes, equal appetite, physical features or emotions and how then can one single drug be suitable and how can similar responses be expected? Many factors are considered before planning a treatment strategy for each individual and the present day research, which treats a disease, not an individual fails in the long run and seems very unscientific and immature.

10) Vranagandhagna- vranachintaka,(Vrana is a term for all types of wounds and ulcers and a doctor who contemplates on it, who is proficient in identifying the type, severity etc and decide a suitable management by it’s smell) Shastrakarmagna (a surgeon) Rasveta bhishak, ras chintaka, (a specialist who thought of all aspects of rasa) Ksharatantravidhu, (seems to be a super specialization .A surgeon was to learn the different types of applications of kshara, it’s utility ,advantages ,etc from an experienced surgeon who was also a specialist in the above & after learning ,working under his guidance & then permitted by the ruler of the province-he could be a kshara tantra vidhu.)are some of the specializations mentioned as in vogue during Charka’s period Though Ayurveda is known to be holistic the concept of referring to specialists was prevalent.

11) This ancient seer encouraged unique methods of research, scientific outlook and critical observation before any theory could be accepted by a vaidya (clinician) who is essentially a researcher too and has also given guidelines as to how, when and why it is essential to develop a holistic scientific medical system.

12) Let me quote from Charaka samhita -" The Science of life shall never attain finality. Therefore humility and relentless industry should characterize your endeavor and your approach to knowledge .The entire world consists of teachers for the wise and enemies for the fools. Therefore, knowledge, conducive to health, longevity, fame and excellence, coming from even an unknown source, should be received, assimilated and utilized with earnestness".


[edit on 2-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

[edit on 2-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

I found an interesting academic article on microbiology on the subject of embryology:

www.ispub.com... nowledge_or_a_vedic_mystery/page/2.html

Charaka Samhita, a treatise of Ayurveda, was used for teaching of Ayurvedic Sciences in the ancient Indian universities of Takshshila and Nalanda and continues to provide guidelines for treatment even in today's world of Modern Medicine. A section of Charaka Samhita deals with the ‘in-utero' foetal development, various signs and symptoms in the mother, and treatment guidelines at various stages of pregnancy. An attempt has been made in this research article to correlate the facts given in Charaka Samhita with the present day knowledge of ‘in-utero' foetal development. Only relevant text from Charaka Samhita has been used for this purpose and not the whole account, which is a vast sea of knowledge. Herein, the authors attempt to establish the fact that inspite of non availability of a concrete proof of availability of any microscopic instruments or techniques in the ancient times of Vedas, still the detailed account of the ‘in-utero' foetal development in the literature almost exactly matches the present day knowledge and at some places even presents some yet undiscovered facts.

reply to post by Gazrok


If a nuclear war broke out or even if it didn't if something removed most of our civilization now, it would only take around 120-160 years for all sky scrapers all cars, all highways to return to earth... Within about 60 years you would look from space and not even know a civ ever existed... We know something happened... Also take into account the earths history over the last 600,000 years...

Never in the last 600,000 years has the co2 been out of control like it is now, which means if they did exist back then, and we're only talking 10,000 years here, they must have been more environmentally friendly and more efficient than we are today, which would mean, no highways, no cars polluting the atmosphere, houses made from stone, etc... They would have learned what we are learning just now.... To protect the planet because it's our only home and the proof is in the ice as Al Gores film shows, however, his film being focused on global warming specifically...

I mean, don't you think if they had what we had today we'd see signs of increased planetary changes like we are now, in the past? We do not see this... Is this proof that the civ's were not as advanced or maybe even that did no exist? maybe, but i think they were more advanced than us and simply made wise decisions as to not destroy their planet... All the technologies they could have developed more advanced than we have now would have been power related... As we are finding out electric is by far the best means for powering everything on this planet without harming the planet... Wish we would have made that choice 150 years ago when the first electric vehicle was invented... I wish we would have invested in Tesla and not Franklin...Anyway, getting off subject...

Good post OP!!!!!! I agree with your ideas and think that not only did civ's live 10,000 years ago but probably have been here as long as earth has been earth... maybe even millions or billions of years... I believe there is a cycle and it just repeats itself and like life itself it grows, climaxes and falls to repeat the process over and over again until it can not repeat the process anymore...

Peace!

Just a very brief primer on Vedic medicine(Ayurveda)

Ayurveda is the oldest of all Indian sciences(shastras) and dates back far earlier than 1000BCE, the earliest mention is found in the Atharaveda which is dated anywhere from 4000BCE to 1200BCE. In fact dating of the Vedic tradition itself is highly controversial, because nobody really knows when this tradition was taking place but it is believed to be a very ancient one.

Anyway like everything in the Sanskrit tradition Ayurveda is based on metaphysics and science. It uses the traditional Sanskrit traditional means of categorizing all data into the 5 sensory categories, which in turn correspond to the five elements fire, earth, wind water and ether. These do not correspond to literal fire, earth, wind, water and ether, but to the subtle elements of matter, energy, fluidity, forces and ether. In the Sanskrit tradition it is believed that underlying all material manifestation are the atoms of matter, energy, fluidity, forces and ether is the only one that is non-atomic, its more like a vibrating field from which all the elements arise. In this field there are three forces/qualities: inertia, neutral and attraction, which also correspond to to ignorance, purity and passion. It is believed that everything in existence, including matter, body and mind are made out of modulations of these three fundamental forces.
Thus Ayurveda considers all disease to be an imbalance of three fundamental humours: vatta-pitta-kaph, and explains every disease in those terms. It says that every human being has their own unique constitution of vatta-pitta-kapha, and therefore every human being must be treated as an individual by the medical practitioner.

The Sanskrit medicine approach is so scientific and analytical that an initial consultation with the doc will take up to 2 hours where he/she will record an entire historgraphy of the patient and perform all kinds of tests: blood tests, fecal matter tests, pulse-reading, general check-up. It is a very exhaustive process where every single detail of the patinent, irrespective of what ailment will be recorded.

It was asked earlier did the Vedic medicine prepare drugs? Yes, they did, most were using herbal ingredients but specially prepared and treated and they also created synthetic drugs using chemical processes and metals. Amazingly, they used mercury in their preparations, but only after chemicaly treating it to detoxfy it.

The amazing thing is about Sanskrit medicine is that it so comprehensive it treats of virtually every area that is is treated in modern medicine, with similar scientific standards, if not more vigorous. It knows about microbiology, genetic engineering and other anomolous stuff. It is also known that ancient Sanskrit medical practictioners did use instruments, we even know they used dummies to practice surgery on.

Interestingly, if one reads the Sanskrit epic literature the mention of things like human cloning is actually found in a rudimentary form. Archeaological evidence also supports a highly advanced tradition of dentistry in the IVC as far back as 7000BCE!


Some more info on Ayurveda:

books.google.co.uk... &hl=en&ei=GH7USYPdJ5-6jAe6guXuDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

[edit on 2-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

[edit on 2-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

I want to consider other anomolus data

Before anyone starts debating advance civilizations there needs to be some evidence that their living was advance in some way. I would suggest that some civilizations were well advanced to the average of the their era, but to say there was a civilization more or equal to the 1500s and later would be a hard sell.

The sanskrit tradition far surpasses the 1500's and this is why it is anomolous. Would you consider modern computer science theory 2500 years ago or even older to be anomolus?

www.amazon.com...

Computing Science in Ancient India

Not only the sign for zero, but also the binary number system, the ideas of metarules, algebraic transformation, recursion, hashing, mathematical logic, formal grammars, and high level language description arose first in India. Indian mathematical science had already reached dizzying heights 2,500 years ago by the time of Panini and Pingala. This classic book of contributions by leading scholars in the world presents an overview of these seminal contributions to computer science. It also includes chapters on models and computation in astronomy and cognitive science.

The structure of computer programming languages is discussed by T. R. N. Rao in the chapter titled "The Panini-Backus Form in Syntax of Formal Languages". Panini, the great Punjabi Sanskrit schlaor, invented a notation to describe the rules of grammar, which are remarkably similar to that devised by Backus. This article makes the powerful case for renaming Backus-Naur Form to Panini-Backus Form, as "we must give credit where credit is due."

The use of binary numbers forms the basis for the operation of digital computers. B. van Nooten of the University of California, Berkeley, describes his discovery of binary numbers in Pingala ’s "Chandahshastra", an ancient Indian text on music. In order to classify the meters, Pingala constructs a "Prastara" or a matrix of binary numbers. Pingala also describes how to find the binary equivalent of a decimal number.

More articles on the same subject:

www.infinityfoundation.com...

The above makes the powerful plea that Backus-Naur Form (BNF) should be truly called Panini-Backus Form (PBF), as "we must give credit where credit is due." Paninian grammars, which consisted of over 4,000 algebraic rules and metarules have been studied by a number of scholars. Kak (1987), reviews the Paninian approach to natural language processing (NLP) and compares it with the current knowledge representation systems of Artificial Intelligence, and argues that Paninian-style generative rules and metarules could assist in further advances in NLP. Another article by Staal (included in this book) discusses the consistency of the system of rules of Panini, as tested by Fowler's Automaton. These are among the marvelous contributions of ancient India to computing sciences.

Is is not odd that great discoveries in computer science, which still have not been matched in the 21st century, are being made 2500 or more years ago?

Indigo, at the end of the day that is still a load of yadda yadda. You haven't given us any evidence that we can test or attempt to falsify.

You keep saying the Vedas say this or that, but you never tell us how these interpretations are arrived at. You keep referring to this or that scholar without showing us any scholarly works.

A link to an unreferenced article in naturalhealthweb.com by an "'Ayurvedic Consultant" doesn't really cut it. Niether does cutting and pasting the product description for a book for sale on Amazon.

You are correct in your assertion that there are a number of top class academic units studying ancient Sanskrit and Indian history, such as Oxford Uni, yet these experts read the Vedas, and publish peer reviewed papers, without ever coming to the world changing conclusion that the civilisation that produced them flew aircraft, used computers and was capable of genetic engineering.

It's strange that even in your interpretations of the Vedas the civilisation that produced them on the one hand treated disease by burning herbs (as bronze age cultures often did) and on the other apprently used "Genetic engineering to change the sex of the fetus has also been described". Although I'm not sure how you would change the gender of a fetus via genetic engineering? Or that they could create synthetic drugs, yet thought that the universe was composed of "the five elements fire, earth, wind water and ether." Of course we now know there hundreds of elements, and the ancient belief in 5 elements is just wrong, yet perfectly in keeping with the level of understanding we would expect from a culture from that period.

[edit on 2/4/09 by FatherLukeDuke]

reply to post by FatherLukeDuke


Well said FLD

And the wooden stake thru the heart is...

You are correct in your assertion that there are a number of top class academic units studying ancient Sanskrit and Indian history, such as Oxford Uni, yet these experts read the Vedas, and publish peer reviewed papers, without ever coming to the world changing conclusion that the civilisation that produced them flew aircraft, used computers and was capable of genetic engineering.

World changing views that never seem to get reported...will we hear of a conspiracy in response??

Indigo, at the end of the day that is still a load of yadda yadda. You haven't given us any evidence that we can test or attempt to falsify.

I have. You can attempt to falsify Computer Science, Microbiology, genetics and scientific method in ancient India. All I can do is share the information with you because I know nothing is proven over the internet, and then you can choose to investigate that information or not. My own investigations have shown that all of this is true. This is why I have become so fascinated and interested in the Sanskrit tradition.

A link to an unreferenced article in naturalhealthweb.com by an "'Ayurvedic Consultant" doesn't really cut it. Niether does cutting and pasting the product description for a book for sale on Amazon.

I am only working within the limitations of the internet and referencing relevant information that can be found online, albeit in a scattered manner.
The information I did reference above to validate that microbiology and genetics is indeed treated in Ayurveda were from Ayurvedic professionals, who have been in the field for a long time. I have read about microbiology and genetics in Ayurveda myself. There is a whole chapter in the Charaka Samhita on genetics and on microbes, with very extensive classifications. The rest is open to your investigation.

You are correct in your assertion that there are a number of top class academic units studying ancient Sanskrit and Indian history, such as Oxford Uni, yet these experts read the Vedas, and publish peer reviewed papers, without ever coming to the world changing conclusion that the civilisation that produced them flew aircraft, used computers and was capable of genetic engineering.

There have been academics saying similar things actually. Of course, as you can understand, it is not a respectable thing to say that the ancients used computers, aircraft and genetic engineering. The scholars that do say things are obviously on the fringe of academia.

It's strange that even in your interpretations of the Vedas the civilisation that produced them on the one hand treated disease by burning herbs (as bronze age cultures often did) and on the other apprently used "Genetic engineering to change the sex of the fetus has also been described". Although I'm not sure how you would change the gender of a fetus via genetic engineering? Or that they could create synthetic drugs, yet thought that the universe was composed of "the five elements fire, earth, wind water and ether." Of course we now know there hundreds of elements, and the ancient belief in 5 elements is just wrong, yet perfectly in keeping with the level of understanding we would expect from a culture from that period.

You have misunderstood, but it is understandable why. I am not saying that ancient India was an advanced civilisation. It was relatively advanced consideing the IVC had planned urban civilisation before anybody else, but not advanced in a modern sense. My theory is it is not the actual people that were advanced, it was their knowledge traditions which were advanced. Their knowledge traditions is very mysterious, according to indigenous records it goes back into prehistory. The appearance of Philosophy, metaphysics, surgey and scientific methods in India are sudden. The appearance of urban culture is also very sudden in India.

It does not fit the generally accepted timeline and lot of knowledge in Sanskrit tradition is anomolus with the time. There is no other culture for example in 3000 years ago which had a scientific method, knew about computer science concepts(binary numbers, hashing algorithms, metarules, recursion etc) these are decidely very modern. Thus I am convinced at least that the Sanskrit tradition is pre-glacial. There have been advanced civilisations on this planet before which have gone through cycles of destruction(The Sanskrit records attest to this themselves).

On the 5 element theory. The original 5 elements of fire, earth, wind, water and ether that we think are Greek are actually from the Sanskrit tradition which diffused to Greence. In fact much of pre-socratic and Platonic philosophy is from the Sanskrit tradition. The Indo-Aryans and the Greeks are from the same tradition, but split up later on. Even up to 1000BCE was there was constant exchange going on between the Indo-Aryans and the Greeks, mainly through the proxy of Persia. Hence why you hear about Pythogoras going to India etc(he probably did not go India, but was definitely influenced by Indian culture)

Now as explained the 5 elements do not actually refer to the physical substances of fire, earth, air and water, but to the most minute atoms of fire, earth, wind and water which correspond to our 5 senses: light/energy, solids, forces, fluids. The elements in modern parlance refers to atomic elements only, but we also know there is light, sound, force. What the Sanskrit tradition have done is assign each different kind of phenomenon into 5 sensory categories because that is how we collect data. I see light with my eyes, I sense touch with my skin, I smell through my nose(solid particles in the air) and I taste with my tongue(essences in foods) So this is basically how the Sanskrit categorization system works.

What I find very impressive about the Sanskrit tradition is their strong emphasis on scientific analysis. It is very thorough. No matter what Sanskrit text you read the attention to detail, analysis, classification is very modern, sometimes even beyond modern. Let me give you some examples. Indian music is known to the most complex musical system in the world, it is microtonal and in the Sanskrit tradition they used binary logic to analyse Indian musical notation, and to convert binary notation to decimal notation they would use hashing algorithms. Sanskrit poetry has almost 20+ metres, and a unique feature of Sanskrit poetry which completely astounds me, you can do mathematics with it e.g., you can design sublime poetry, which will have a geometric structure(kown as bandhas) and they also found ways of representing numbers through poems for example remembering mathematical constants. In Vedic recitation they used error checking algorithms to ensure that the recitation is 100% accurrate.

What is astonishing about the Sanskrit tradition that they use very advanced mathematical and computational concepts effortlessly for practical purposes(like music above) No matter what the subject of Sanskrit literature, be it metaphysics; sociology, psychology, medicine the analysis of each subject is always very vigorous. Thus in the Sanskrit tradition we can find a post-enligntenment level of rationalism, which to many extents is still unmatched today.

What conclusions do I draw from one?

1) Ancient India had computer science, cognitive psychology, microbiology and genetic engineering
2) Ancient India did not actually have any of the above, it was passed down to India through a pre-glacial advanced civilisation in the form of an oral tradition.

[edit on 2-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

However, IMO there's no way an oral tradition can survive for over 100,000 years, so I think it's bogus.

All of it is merely interpretations made by people that want to believe it.

Truth is, the "Sanskrit tradition" actually credits the Greeks for all the "advanced" knowledge I've ever been able to find in the Vedas.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte
However, IMO there's no way an oral tradition can survive for over 100,000 years, so I think it's bogus.

I think that is an argument from incredulity fallacy. Just because it is unbelievable, does not mean it did not happen. Moreover, when I say pre-glacial, it does necessarily mean 100,000 years ago. There have been periods of ice ages 11,000 years ago, 20,000 years ago, but even then the entire planet was not covered in ice.

I am just going to say pre-glacial to mean anytime before 10,000 years ago. I have no idea of what history was like before then. Your guess is as good as mine.

All of it is merely interpretations made by people that want to believe it.

That is a tautology. Everything is an interpretation, but some interpretations are valid and some are invalid. All of this evidence actually exists and has been well studied for decades. The Chandashastra does talk about binary logic and hashing algorithms, Panini Asthyadi does use metarules, recursions and tranformations; Charkasamhita does talk about microbiology and genetics (I even references an academic journal article above on that) There indeed was a very vigorous scientific method in the Sanskrit tradition. The Sanskrit history does mention human cloning, robotics, space travel, aircraft etc.

Anyway all I can do is share the information and it is open to you whether to investigate it or not, but please don't make counter-claims to the effect of "None of this exists" unless you are willing to investigate the information presented.

Truth is, the "Sanskrit tradition" actually credits the Greeks for all the "advanced" knowledge I've ever been able to find in the Vedas.

There is debate amongst historians on who influenced whom, but the evidence is in favour of the Sanskrit tradition because it is older than the Greek tradition. Also, while in Greek tradition philosophy and science appears suddenly, in the Sanskrit tradition philosophy and scinnce is a part of an independent and continious tradition which goes back thousands of years as per records.

There has been a concerted, conspiracy if you like by Western historians to suppress that Greek Philosophy and Science is derivative of the Sanskrit tradition motivated by eurocentric sentiment, but the evidence is simlply overwhelmingly against it and that view is gradually losing its influence. A great effort towards restore the genuine history is being made by many modern historians, one particular one has written an outstanding and scholarly work of 40 years of research in "The Shape of Ancient thought" Highly recommended if you want to read about it.

[edit on 2-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

FYI: As a personal experiment, risen out of the will to survive physically here on Earth, I have been taking herbs with the soul purpose of eliminating any and all parasites which have taken up residence within my biological unit.

I am continuing to eliminate these vermin today. It has not been a quick fix. The verdict is in and I am here as a witness to the process.

So captainron, thanks for this discussion.

In my relentless search for the silver bullet, I have gained great confidence in alternate thinking. The status quo has failed many people. It breaks my heart to know how to help people, yet they shun my living proof that there is hope for all of humanity.

When will the foxes be fired as the egg counters?

What do some of you have to gain by guarding empty fortresses?

Originally posted by win 52
FYI: As a personal experiment, risen out of the will to survive physically here on Earth, I have been taking herbs with the soul purpose of eliminating any and all parasites which have taken up residence within my biological unit.

I am continuing to eliminate these vermin today. It has not been a quick fix. The verdict is in and I am here as a witness to the process.

Thanks for sharing. Yes, the use of herbs is very effective, and modern science is finding out the same. Ayurveda, though they produce synthetic drugs like allopathic medicine, most of the drug preparatons in Ayurvedic are herbal. The Ayurvedic texts give vivid descriptions of thousands of herbs, their effects, their characteristics and how to apply to them to disease. In fact most people who try Ayurveda report similar results as you do(though I am not sure if you tried Ayurveda or some other treatment) It is a highly effective medical sysem and in many cases has reported better results for ailments like diabetes, asthma, heart disease, arthirits etc. Anyway I firmly believe this is the healthcare system of an advanced civilisation, which is why it is so effective and exhaustive.

[edit on 2-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child

Originally posted by Harte
However, IMO there's no way an oral tradition can survive for over 100,000 years, so I think it's bogus.

I think that is an argument from incredulity fallacy. Just because it is unbelievable, does not mean it did not happen. Moreover, when I say pre-glacial, it does necessarily mean 100,000 years ago. There have been periods of ice ages 11,000 years ago, 20,000 years ago, but even then the entire planet was not covered in ice.

I do not think so.

The last interglacial period (before the present one) has been fairly conclusively dated to about 114,000 years ago, at a minimum.

You will need to account for how an oral tradition is kept intact for almost as long as modern man has existed on the planet if you wish to make your case.

If you are going to argue that the ice didn't effect the Indian Subcontinent, then what is the excuse for the downfall of this "advanced civilization?" You've already claimed it was the Ice Age that did it, you cannot now claim that "Ice didn't do it."

Harte

If you are going to argue that the ice didn't effect the Indian Subcontinent, then what is the excuse for the downfall of this "advanced civilization?" You've already claimed it was the Ice Age that did it, you cannot now claim that "Ice didn't do it."

I believe you are mistaken. I did not say it was on the onset of the ice age that did it, but the coming out of the ice age that did it. At which point there were super-floods around the world. So this civilisation was destroyed roughly around 10,000 years ago and thereafter it was fragmented into many factions putting the pieces back together, and because it had advanced knowledge this is why urban culture was established pretty much immediately.

I do not rule out the possibility that before the 10,000 year mark there were other cataclysms.

Also note the the Vedic Aryans made painstreaking efforts to preserve the oral tradition. It was incredibly elite and guarded, you could not get into it unless you were born in it. To preserve the Vedas they developed error-checking mathematical schemes so that every note is preserved. This is widely agreed upon by many Sansrit scholars that the tradition was able to preserve the Vedas with near 100% accuracy. The kind of training that Vedic priests had to go through was very thorough. So there seems to have been an incredibly concerted effort to preserve the Vedas and protect it from corruption. Why? Could it be because they were trying to preserve their past knowledge amidst uncertain climate?

Repeat post. Delete.

[edit on 2-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

Howdy Indigo

There has been a concerted, conspiracy if you like by Western historians to suppress that Greek Philosophy and Science is derivative of the Sanskrit tradition motivated by eurocentric sentiment, but the evidence is simlply overwhelmingly against it and that view is gradually losing its influence.

Hans: Yet the Sanskrit tradition hasn't been embued with the skills you seem to be assigning to it. Yes revision of history has been occurring but Vedic science hasn't received credit for what you are proposing.

There have been academics saying similar things actually. Of course, as you can understand, it is not a respectable thing to say that the ancients used computers, aircraft and genetic engineering. The scholars that do say things are obviously on the fringe of academia.

Hans: Who? Name and publication from peer reviewed source. Truth is always respectable. If you've noticed that science has made a rather large number of advances, all by people pushing the fringe. The only reason to no publish evidence based facts is because their are no evidence. Considering that scientists with this information could publish within India itself this seems odd.

I do apology as I came to this discussion late, however I don't recall where the links were to the Sanskrit documents that have these wonders in them and their translations; the orthodox one and shall we call it the Indigo friendly translations, would you please re-link those to me please- or did I understand I understand your exchange with Harte to mean there are no such links?

Thanks