We are born sinners

Sinter Klaas

danielsil18
reply to post by Sinter Klaas

 

Maybe it is because you remind Him of the moment His beloved creation that got seduced to eat the fruit and learned about right and wrong.

I don't think that makes it right.

As to define sin, I won't because im not claiming that sin is true. But I think sin for most religious people is an act that goes against god's rules.

edit on 21-12-2013 by danielsil18 because: (no reason given)

Makes what right ? The fact that being able to sin is part of who we are ? Or because God still holds a grudge about it ?

Because god still holds a grudge about it when I haven't done anything when I was born.

danielsil18
All of your analogies deflect my question.

My analogies are directed towards helping you to a possible answer to your question.
If you genuinely want an answer, that is.
But if your purpose is just to express a sense of grievance, you're not going to be convinced by anything anyway.

cass1dy09
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

 

So we're not born sinners but we're born gay?

Yes. The catch is that, because we can sin it enabled us to choose not to. So if we act out any gay desires, we sin because it's regarded as a lower thing not worthy of Gods creation.

So if Eve never ate the fruit, we could all be gay and we could act like rabbits...

Or would God tell Adam it's a bad thing, when he isn't capable of understanding what a bad thing is at all ?

I think this should answer your question OP:

Ezekiel 18
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Even the bible proves that original sin is bunk.

DISRAELI

danielsil18
All of your analogies deflect my question.

My analogies are directed towards helping you to a possible answer to your question.
If you genuinely want an answer, that is.
But if your purpose is just to express a sense of grievance, you're not going to be convinced by anything anyway.

I want good answer that might be out there that I haven't seen. One that could make sense.

My question includes a god, not humans in a war or a family feud.

If god was just and fair then nobody should be born a sinner.

DISRAELI
reply to post by danielsil18

 

Perhaps you can think of it in terms of a broken relationship.
The premise is that the relationship between God and the human race broke down in Eden.
As long as the relationship is not restored, then everybody born into the human race is born into the same condition of having a spoiled relationship with God.
It's like being at war. If you are born into a nation which is at war with another nation, then you are part of that war until there is a peace settlement. Or you defect to the other side.

I disagree. Just because two countries are at war does not mean every person in one of those countries hates every person in the other country. That's just childish. Exactly like the situation you're trying to explain through that analogy. There is no broken down relationship, only a narcissist demanding that by nature we are obligated to break our backs for him because he think he is more perfect than we are. Isn't that how the Aryan brotherhood operated? Or the Ku Klux Klan? Or any other number of organizations who believe that what you are is far more important than who you are - or at the very least, synonymous.

And we all know how that ended for them.

I was discussing the way the human race broke away from God in this thread;
The tree of what knowledge?

That might give a more detailed answer.

@danielsil18..... The next time someone tells you that you were born a sinner, turn around and ask them where exactly in the Bible does God or Jesus say that. They will most probably quote some verse from Paul, the guy who ''thought'' had the holy spirit or they will mash some verses together to show that the teaching of ''original sin'' is true. Thats when you point them to the verses that speak of all those ''righteous'' and faultless people in the Bible....or better yet, you could ask them why Jesus differentiated between sinners and righteous people, when he said he only came for ''sinners'' and not the ''righteous''. And then when they start arguing semantics, its time to walk away.

reply to post by danielsil18


No worries...

You aren't the reason for Gods grudge, and He does not care about anything you did. He's just ignoring his perfect creation, because it isn't perfect anymore.

It seems that you can get yourself back in His light though. I don't understand what it is about getting baptized or Jesus sacrifice that make Him care for you after that while you can still sin.

It creates more questions for me...

reply to post by DISRAELI


I don't think my government would be as forgiving as I'd like it to be though...

reply to post by Sinter Klaas

Similarly the human race is not always very forgiving if you try to defect back to God.
They start writing treatises about how evil God is.

reply to post by Sinter Klaas


Define "perfect". I always see these words getting thrown around - "perfect", "divine", "eternity", "holy", "good" - and yet it always seems to mean different things to different people. I don't think these words have absolute definitions any more than "beauty" or "truth".

Do you think you can define these words for me? Because these concepts are critical elements of what we're talking about here, to my understanding. So perhaps we should make sure we have a full and solid comprehension of such elements before we understand how they relate to one another and to us.

reply to post by Sinter Klaas

You aren't the reason for Gods grudge, and He does not care about anything you did. He's just ignoring his perfect creation, because it isn't perfect anymore.

But the point of original sin is that we need to be forgiven since we are born. So it's not that god doesn't care, it's that he already found us guilty and need to be forgiven.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


In my opinion, if you want to know what perfect means just look at the make-up of the universe around us. Perfection could also be called balance in my opinion, and the universe is molded around balance, action/reaction, good/bad, big/small, etc., etc., etc.

The universe is the ultimate balancing act, and it never falters, which makes it the definition of perfection in my opinion.

DISRAELI

I was discussing the way the human race broke away from God in this thread;
The tree of what knowledge?

That might give a more detailed answer.

edit on 21-12-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

I don't think that OP answered my question. It's better if you answer directly.

Do you think a just and fair god let babies start their life as sinners?

I don't think god is just or fair because it's not logical for me to be a sinner when I haven't done anything.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


But balance is not what is sought by God, according to most. God wants an absolute nature, a master-and-servant relationship where the 1 always has its foot on the 0's back...there can be no equality, only dominance.

reply to post by danielsil18


It's extremely unfair to grandfather a child into sin without their knowledge of it, I'd even say that it's cruel.

"Live in a third world country where you have no access to a bible or its teachings? Oh well, you're going to hell and don't even know it! MUAHAHAHAHA!!!"

- Yahweh

The entire concept of original sin is utterly ridiculous and stupid. Like I said, it's only a conversion tactic. What better way to get people to think like you want them to than by convincing parents that they need to tell their children that they are sinners in need of saving from birth?

A child born into a religious home is rarely given the opportunity to find their own questions and answers, they are taught one thing and told that thinking any differently comes with eternal punishment.

The difference between Santa and Yahweh is that children are never told Yahweh is a fictional character like with Santa. Children believing in Santa is proof positive that children will believe anything if you pound it into their heads enough times.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Whose version of God? I don't see God as dominant and unfair, I see God as humble and just. Just like you said in your "God defined" thread, they have changed the definition of God and people have bought it. You have to find your own definition, not rely on others'.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


I agree with you, it doesn't make sense in any way. Some people say god is fair and just, but I don't think he is. Of course that's saying if god is real.