US prosecutor fires back over arrest of Indian diplomat

reply to post by TrueBrit


The idea behind Diplo immunity is so that they can carry on with their work without fear of harassment from the host nation, especially if said host nation isn't friendly or is otherwise hostile to the other nations intent. By and large, it works quite well and is respected, not withstanding the current topic or other such things such as Spain opening diplo bags from Gibraltar.

However, if a Diplomat is suspected of committing crimes the host nation can declare them Persona non gratis and have them removed, which is usually an embarrassment to the sending nation and a stain on the Diplomats character to boot. So in effect, they do have to at least respect and observe the host nations laws, even if they are not actually bound to them in the same way a visitor or resident is.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

There are two threads running on this , i hope the mods merge it, but please check this post from the other thread

reply to post by stumason


I know about the persona non gratis status that can be applied to miscreant diplomats, but my attitude to the whole idea is that any activity which requires the sort of immunity which merely means a person is sent home rather than being prosectuted to the fullest extent of the law, is not worth the cost. Nothing is more important than justice, not even world peace. A peace gained in secrecy and immunity from justice, is not true peace.

reply to post by TrueBrit


Aye, but you said it yourself, different countries have different laws and in some, you don't even have to break the law to disappear into some gulag hell-hole. At least with diplo immunity, the diplomat can be quite confident of being allowed to go about his business without being threatened, harassed or otherwise interfered with which would compromise the mission as a whole.

That's not to say that the host can't interfere anyway by just kicking out the mission or having personnel declared as PNG, but that usually has a reciprocal response harming their own missions elsewhere, so it keeps a balance and is really just about showing respect, which is a core tenet of diplomacy..

In an ideal world, where every nation is free, fair and has a balanced and transparent Justice system, we could probably do away with it all together, but while we have nations that will stone people for being raped, or have them blown up by mortar shell for going against the party line, I think we need it.

With all due respect , the Maid was not being under payed, the maid was given enough privileges by the govt. to probably give her entire sum of more than $5000-6000(Includes free Medical and Dental Insurance) which is promised to every Indian Embassy staff and was promised to her as she was the employee of the Diplomat . Read my post on the privileges given to her ...The Maid is nowhere the victim .. I really want people to keep that in mind ....

A Maid is provided by the Govt. of India as it wants people to concentrate on their work and not be distracted by other issues .

reply to post by stumason


Well a better option, would be to only maintain relations with nations which are not despotic, insane, and murder their own people on an industrial basis. The only contact we should have with some nations, is at the point of a bayonet. For example, North Korea as a political structure, needs to have its face crushed, and be thrown down the proverbial stairs. We should NOT have an embassy there, but we do (it shares space with two other nations embassies). We should have no contact with the North Korean nation, other than to be holding one of the many large guns pointed at its kneecaps, waiting in case it decides to start serious crap up with the South. Until or unless its leadership become reasonable and fair minded, we should not have dialogue with the scum that rule there. To do so sullies us, as much as it gives the NK leadership honour it does not deserve.

Do you see what I mean? All diplomats do, is keep lines of communication open between leaderships. In my opinion, there are some leaderships which the UK government should only communicate with in a language spoken in a tongue which sounds very much like arterial spray hitting a wall.

crazyewok
To the people who are saying the US was right in doing this.


Think if it was the other way and a US diplomat was detained in India for breaking a local law.

Would you be ok with that?

Do you think the USA would not get all indignat and start frothing at the mouth for there diplomat to be released with a apology? Im betting they would.


So quit with the double standards.

If it's the other way around? lol.... American officials seem to have brain damage and a profound case of it. They need to get that looked at. Badly.

The whole purpose of diplomatic immunity of any form is to be above being detained or otherwise obstructed over local charges which could as easily be made up or politically motivated.

We screwed up...They are *PISSED OFF* which means all the defense on Earth will do nothing but piss them off even more. They need to stop and just drop the pride and ego crap before we end up with an ally turned into a tense 'not enemy' status over some pinhead prosecutor with an ego FAR FAR too big to just say "Nope..maybe this isn't worth risking diplomatic standards and norms over".... Of course not though.

This is the modern America where NO ONE is EVER wrong..and if you silly little foreigner didn't get that? Oh... Rule #2 says you're wrong in addition to rule #1 saying we're right.

Isn't that lovely how we project that to other nations? (NOT!)

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Its election season , politicians have grown extra pairs of balls or borrowed huge ones from somewhere ..
The whole Media frenzy and strong words is nothing more than domestic consumption( mostly) ..
India would not have made this an issue if we were in the middle of a govt . but now elections are 3-4 months away . The opposition will have a WMD in its hands against the ruling govt. if they screw it up. The Ruling govt. is already extremely unpopular , this is one issue were they can show face and say "we took on a super power" .

LeatherNLace
Let India be upset all they want....maybe the US will take all of those call center/IT jobs back from India and employee our own citizens with those jobs instead. I'm so sick of calling for tech support and getting a foreigner on the other end of the line.

On this point I agree with you wholeheartedly. I couldn't really care less how India feels about the situation. If they have such an issue with the treatment of US Prisoners or the Judicial System in the US, then they can feel free to keep their butts in India. No one is forcing them to live here.

On Topic: The US did the correct thing by arresting this woman; although, I'm not sure a strip search was necessary.

I agree again, the right thing to do was to arrest her. However, I disagree with you about the strip search. It was necessary. It has always been necessary for security reasons when you book a prisoner into the jail. It does not matter what your Nationality is, where you are from, who you know or do not know. If you are arrested and booked into jail, you are strip searched. This is standard procedure everywhere including the juvenile system. So if anyone has an issue with strip searching prisoners, then let the fight be about our own citizens who endure this treatment every single day from our County/City jails, to our State and Federal Prisons, to our Juvenile Detention Centers.

Also, out of curiosity, did "diplomatic immunity" not apply to this particular diplomat?

edit on 19-12-2013 by LeatherNLace because: (no reason given)

Now this is the million dollar question and I have wondered about this since the story broke. What ever happened to diplomatic immunity? I was under the impression it was extended to not only diplomats, but their staff and families as well.

reply to post by MrWendal


This woman was a consular official, and therefore her immunity, as provided for under the Vienna Convention, is more limited than would be the immunity offered to ambassadors or their direct attaches. Generally speaking, the immunity offered to a person in her position, is limited to falling only on any activities performed as a part of her job role, which the offense in question appears to be well outside of.

reply to post by MrWendal


International relations don't work with "let India be upset" statements ..Boeing just lost $4.5billion F/A 18 deal few days back because of NSA spying on Brazil... Making India upset will have massive consequences on economic/defense relationship considering there are massive defense deals worth Billions on the cards.


Western nations have always tried to save their criminals by hook or by crooks . American soldiers stationed abroad have often been whisked off after rapes and murder , often leaving locals infuriated . India is just doing something similar .. nothing to whine about ...

reply to post by TrueBrit


I totally agree - but that's not the world we live in unfortunately. Better to have contact and be able to talk, than have no contact and "misunderstandings" turn into something worse.

reply to post by maddy21


C'mon, it's not like India hasn't done the same things for their own forces when accused of crimes, whitewashing any investigation and whisking the accused away to other postings.

reply to post by stumason


Am not stupid enough to Deny it , my point is ,this is very normal when it comes to todays world . Morality plays very little role , whats right and whats wrong is irrelevant .. Timing of this is also very very suspicious , America would never launch this case when India is at its strongest and would defend its actions to the very end considering elections are coming.... the whole point is something very different. Suffice to say the entire media frenzy from Govt. corruptions has changed to America and this govt. is also usually known to be very very pro US... I believe the whole thing is concocted nonsense to keep the govt. in power ....the opposing political party is someone which is very Anti U.S and a political party with their ideologies are not something which America would want in India in 2014 ...

reply to post by Krazysh0t


The issue in this case is very simple - the two individuals involved are Indian nationals and it is Indian government that has to worry about their welfare.

How many Americans are being tried by Indian courts or jailed in India?

India has been a country remarkably friendly to USA. A problem if it arises, even in this situation, could have been handled through normal diplomatic channels.

What is happening is a big drama which is now turning into a socialist crusade.

Mrs Khobragade has definitely made a mistake of writing a second employment contract. This was an error of judgement on her part. But it is not a case of mis-treatment of the maid. It is merely a payment dispute.

As I explained on the other thread also, the continuation of this case in US courts is counter-productive to diplomatic staff of both countries, as it will become very difficult for them to carry out their normal duties.

Some posters worry about their jobs going to India. A lot of Indians worry about their jobs lost to China and other countries.

All countries are operating under WTO (World Trade Organization) that frames the rules of how trade is going to happen between countries.

There has been a concentration of specific industries in specific countries due to WTO.

India may have gained somewhat due to services export to US; but India would have developed anyway even without significant services export. It is misleading to assume that India gains hugely due to BPO industry. And USA would have lost jobs anyway to other Asian countries if not to India. So USA has nothing specific to gain or lose due to India.

A few points that maybe should have been pondered by somebody BEFORE the clusterfu#k arrest that has the potential to reshape the future drastically at least as far as the united states is concerned.

1. The Indian Diplomat herself does not receive minimum wage. I repeat, because perhaps somebody in Obama's government should lay off the stupid pills, the Indian Diplomat herself does not receive minimum wage!

2. The Diplomat is from the lowest caste! The maid is from a higher caste! how exactly were the geniuses at the state department going to spin this in India?

3. The real world is not an episode of Law and Order, any government can justify anything legally if they want to--the point being that everybody has agreed that governments will not engage in such activity in the context of Embassy personal, ALL OF THEM. Any legal action taken against Foreign embassy personnel is taken as a diplomatic message, are we all going to pretend that whatever political message was being sent to India is really a domestic wage dispute? Indians will believe this? What in Gods name was the Obama administration thinking? This level of incompetence is right up there with wmd's in Iraq and Abu Ghraib.

4. India, nuclear armed India, has recently used their 'mars space program' to test payload delivery using the earths gravitational field, giving them global wmd range--how much longer is US policy going to be justified using comic book stories? India should have been a natural ally, it was the most pro american population on the planet, but we cant have anybody like us can we? For Gods sake, do we have to piss off everybody?

reply to post by realworld


On your 4th point, India would never (and has a stated policy) use Nuclear weapons as a first response, only ever in retaliation.

I also highly doubt India and the US would ever get to this point, this is just a diplo snafu, which the Obama Administration seems quite adept at doing and they have snubbed the UK (the US's closest Ally) on a number of occasions.

reply to post by maddy21


Since you took the time to make the posts, I will make time to answer them for you. Give me some time respond though as I am travelling to the parental units residence for Christmas.