Controversy Over 5th-Grader’s Religion Speech

adjensen
reply to post by Eryiedes

 

you can't talk positively about religion in a public school, you can't talk negatively about religion in a public school, either.

We can up here.
Maybe we're just more free than you?

-Peace-

reply to post by Eryiedes


You think the government mandating that you can only talk about one side of some issues is freedom?

M...kay.

reply to post by adjensen


No, we can talk about either.
But that was a nice try at pointless obfuscation none the less.

-Peace-

reply to post by iRoyalty


Yea... how can your parents support that people? I agree... how the hell can they? How can one be religious after all that has been done in the name of religion?

Its true!!! Why can the kid feel the same way? I dont have any problems in waking the kids up... in fact I have more issues with having this religious bs being carried on decade after decade and believe me "let kids be kids" must be the last resort if I ever heard one... no. They actually have to learn at a young age that all that their parents have been fed... is wrong. Is non existent. Only brought pain and misery to this world and people died and still die they most painful and excruciating deaths at the hands of the most fanatic and psychotic, sick, depraved, sadistic people this world has ever seen... all in the name of... their nonexistent, invisible, inaudible, improvable, never seen, never heard, never present... so called... GODS.

lol

Seriously... what are you afraid of? hm?

reply to post by Eryiedes


Well, I misunderstood you, then, sorry.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


I'm not going to get drawn into a debate on the merits of one religion over another or the specific histories of one Faith for it's wars and conflicts.

It's a very basic issue here and it's not just Constitutional on it's face, it core to the United States as a value.

You cannot suppress one side and allow another. So, when we open the schools to Religious exposure in basic awareness and education to at least that level? Well, then having people giving an energetic and sincere position of opposition, like this, works too. Until then...it's not just a bad idea. It's simply unconstitutional.

The thing I think we too often miss is a basic approach of respect to the other side in religious topics. I happen to be very religious, though it's one of a few areas of my life that largely remains a private one. It's not theory, guesses or assumptions. It's a simple part of life and a fact of existence as I understand it to be.

Others......think there is nothing or something very different, as each individual may have it. When we disagree but still respect each others right to be religious or not, it works. When either side forces itself on the other? Well...conflict erupts and historically? It's gotten pretty dark at times.

iRoyalty
reply to post by Eryiedes

 

If you want to teach your kids about murder that's fine, I will teach my kids about love and human kindness so that when they see stuff like murder they will know it's wrong, rather than being subjected to that information from a young age.

yeah, they will have plenty of time to see all that inhumanity to man, themselves.

drivers1492
What I find fascinating in all these replies is the fact no one has a clue as to what the speech actually said. I can't make a judgement call unless I read/heard the speech. I have zero issue with the topic of the kid's speech in a school environment. I don't understand why it's such an issue to speak of religions in school. It has been a massive defining factor in the entire written history of man. Why in the world does everyone think it needs to be shunned? There is a difference in preaching or pushing a faith and provided information and how it effected our history yet every mention of it people panic. I just don't understand I suppose how we should avoid such a incredible influence religion is, was, and will be to be discussed in the school system. Yes, I know the fight about evolution and intelligent design but the kid is referencing history not trying to replace anything.

you lost me with your last comment about history.

how do you know he was factual?

hell, most of the posters here, get history wrong.
what makes a 5th grader correct?
especially a report on his own and not from a book the whole class read?

Krazysh0t
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

You are misunderstanding what I am getting at. Religion can be helpful and can be used to help people in many different ways, both physically and spiritually. HOWEVER it is most definitely ALSO used as a tool to incite large groups of people to kill other groups of people. This has happened time and again throughout history. To ignore this simple fact due to offending someone's sensibilities is just sweeping it under the rug and indirectly allowing it to continue. By exposing it, you can maybe try to stop it or make people aware of the duplicity being preached to them.

edit: I'm not trying to get at preaching hatred of religion though. But people need to be able to talk about the dark things being done in the name of religion.

edit on 16-12-2013 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)

well, the fact that even adults can't agree on religious topics, with more so-called knowledge behind them, how the hell
do you expect kids to handle it?

and who the heck teaches what?

Eryiedes
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

I completely disagree.
If a child shows ability and promise it should be cultivated and not stifled.
The fact that they chose the subject and won an award for it is proof that he (and likely most in his class) WERE indeed ready for such knowledge.
Letting kids be kids is one thing.
Preventing and discouraging their potential is another.

-Peace-

good, let him publish it.

they can buy his book.

have you read his paper?

reply to post by tsingtao


I didn't know if it was factually correct or not. If it wasn't then that should have been the complaint from the staff but that aspect isn't mentioned at all so it's relevance(imo) is minimal at best to the discussion. If it was ripe with lines suggesting you should adhere to a particular faith then I could see the complaint as well. But, after reading the provided text of the report found here
Full text of Zachary's speech
I see absolutely zero issue with it.

The kids can learn about world altering events such as the dropping of the atomic bomb and the world wars yet one of the most influential aspects throughout history needs to be avoided for some reason? That makes no sense whatsoever to me. It's there and will continue to be there. It's effects on our culture is history and should not be avoided.

iRoyalty
reply to post by Logarock

 

HOWEVER, you can't give a speech to a bunch of 10 year olds about violence and murder, especially if it's kind of a dark subject for a lot of kids who are probably brought up to be christians. It's not a great feeling when you find out that something you believe in and think is inherently good, has a violent and dark background. Imagine if you gave a speech to your kids about why Santa Claus is a pedophile? It would %$*! you up!

edit on 16-12-2013 by iRoyalty because: typo

My kids not in the Santa Claus la la land at this point. In fact I teach him what Santa really is and where most of the ideas for Christmas really come from.

reply to post by tsingtao


Because kids haven't been indoctrinated with bs rhetoric their whole lives and can provide unique, outside viewpoints on issues that adults may be unable to perceive.

Eryiedes
reply to post by iRoyalty

 

We disagree.
If a student can concisely formulate a proper inquiry on the topic or write a detailed essay on it that wins awards...guess what?
They're old enough to know.

-Peace-

It would seem that posters are trying to attach an understanding based on their recollections of personal mindsets from the 5th grade.

As I recall by the 5th grade I had already had a belly full of Revolutionary War teaching, Nathan Hale being hanged in glorious martyrdom, rebellion against royal powers and its agents, anti tax without representation, natives working for the French and English burning and killing along the frontier in both French and Indian and Revolutionary Wars, ect. All that was in the 4th grade.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


The only thing I don't agree with is preaching religion in schools. I see nothing wrong with teaching kids goodwill projects taken on by various religions, but at the same time, they should be able to learn about the dark side too. To not teach the children these things, is to lie about history. Religion plays a VERY important role in history, and being able to look at it objectively and analyze its actions should be something that is part of any history class.

For example: telling a history class that the Christians setup many monasteries during the Dark Ages to help with plague victims isn't the same as telling them that Jesus is the answer to their problems and they should be Christians. But at the same time, they should also be able to address the bad things the Christians did. But this shouldn't be excluded to just Christians. Muslims, Jews, pagans, or any other popular religion should be fair game for these topics.

My youngest was 10 on 9/11, and in school that day. He remembers it like it was yesterday; so do I, and so does his sister, who was 12 and also in school that morning. My son had nightmares about his school being bombed, about being dead, and wondering if his sister and I would be okay.

THAT IS NOT WHAT I WANTED FOR MY KIDS.

They have, on their own, studied the situation; and as he has grown up (now nearly 23) he has thought long and hard about 9/11, religion, etc. My daughter ventured into some Youth Ministry thing in middle school, just to 'taste it', and went to a camp in a beautiful, wooded setting on a lake somewhere. She said they had all sorts of fun, and it was beautiful there (we always liked being in the woods/outdoors), but then over dinner one evening shortly after they'd arrived, they were all told they were worthless, useless, hopeless sinners who could never redeem themselves. That was it.

They were "sent to bed" with that message. She said she was horrified, and felt awful, and couldn't believe the shaming, the scathing loathsome degradation. It hurt her. She's never forgotten it.

It was The Next Morning that they got "The Good News!" "Jesus died for your sins, so you have to do this and that and the other, to stay out of hell."

She dumped the Youth Group as soon as they got back to town.

We are not a 'religious' family; and we certainly didn't use 9/11 as a reason to become religious, or to 'hate' Muslims. I did not forbid my kids to 'investigate' religions, or question them; I did my best to answer their concerns (and they were concerned).

I'm still unsure if it was an inside job or not, we just don't discuss it - last I heard my son thought it was definitely an inside job....but it doesn't matter anymore, really what any of us Americans think...

the damage is done.


A fifth grader is PLENTY old enough to be able to address these things!!
I don't know if you all saw the couple of videos earlier this year: one was a 10-year old girl in the Middle East somewhere talking about not wanting her family to sell her into a child marriage, and the other was a boy about 11 in Egypt talking to a reporter about the uprisings in Cairo Both very well-spoken.

People don't give kids enough credit. By age 10 they are very much aware of what's going on around them.
9/11 traumatized this country, and changed it forever. The kids growing up in war-torn, conflicted areas are forever scarred, forever traumatized by the things going on around them. We must not forget that.

The adults in Florida can "shut the kid down" in their stupid contest all they want, but he WILL remember this, and NOT in a warm, exciting, accomplishment sort of way.

S/F

AfterInfinity
Meaning that if the majority are wrong, the corporation will deliberately choose to be wrong or stay quiet to save money. Is that what you're saying?

First off, who said that the majority was wrong in this instance.
The fact that the speech mentioned Genghis Khan, who was not religious to begin with, already tells me this was nothing more than an anti-religious, historically incorrect, rant. Money, power, resources, land disputes, politics, disputes in the lines of nobility, etc... have been the cause of most wars, not religion.

Second, any smart corporation, most of who spend millions on advertising, is not going to take a hardline on either side of any hot topic. Whats the point of spending millions on advertising to bring in customers, when one silly little sponsored event alienates millions of them?

AfterInfinity
while someone with half a brain exercises their freedom of speech.

Religion is a Constitutionally protected class in the US, regardless of how much religion haters may dislike it.

Hate speech is NOT covered under freedom of speech.

reply to post by tsingtao


It's posted in this thread.

-Peace-

So let me get this straight.

Atheists cry foul when kids, parents, teachers tell others about religion but whine when one of their kids is told not to spread Ahteism. You can not have it both ways. Take away others right to free speech and lose your own.

Boo hoo, don't be hypocrites.

brandiwine14
Atheists cry foul when kids, parents, teachers tell others about religion but whine when one of their kids is told not to spread Ahteism.

Apparently many countries don't have the same problem discussing religion that America does.
If you prefer to think of your inflexibility as a strength I won't stop you...but I won't take you seriously either.

-Peace-