My issue with 'proof' of alien existence.

CaptainBeno
reply to post by roncoallstar

 

Your link blew me away.

Thanks buddy, bloody awesome.

I don't see anything necessarily alien in these images. Here is a painting of Ned Kelly by Sidney Nolan. Kelly was not an alien!

roncoallstar
reply to post by Blue Goblin

 

What you are saying makes sense on a certain level, however I strongly disagree and I will tell you why. You are comparing our ancestors' "frame of reference" to that of modern day man. That is the fundamental flaw in this type of thinking. True these things could very well be made up as you say, but the problem is that our ancestors left no evidence that they made any of this stuff up. In fact, we have a giant stockpile of evidence to suggest otherwise across ALL ancient civlizations. I have no reason to believe that our ancestors would make any of this stuff up for a few reasons.

First, in my opinion they could not have possibly made this stuff up, without having some sort of reference. I am not a believer in that you can create something out of nothing. I believe anything you can imagine has to have some sort of reference, otherwise it could not be imaginable. For instance, we can have our artists come up with the most original things, however they can only come up with new things using the knowledge and the experiences they have learned in their own time. Therefore, our ancestors could not have made this stuff up without seeing it in my opinion.

Secondly, what exactly would they have to gain by making such things up? Our ancestors who told these legends and left these artifacts behind can not be compared to modern day civilization. They didn't have television and the internet and the human Ego was not at the forefront as it is today. I am of the opinion that our ancestors were in touch with this earth on a deeper level, and they worked together rather than worked against each other as it is today. I have no reason to believe these people lied. Maybe you do because I am willing to bet most of you are very familiar with modern day humans and their ability to be extremely deceptive.

I still believe the rock art of the American Southwest is the best evidence we have of other lifeforms in our past. It's a shame that most of this rock art not as well known as some of the more popular panels. Keep in mind these panels are EVERYWHERE all across the entire western US. They literally put the panels everywhere to make sure that people would see them, and the modern day American Indians say EXACTLY what they are.

Here is just a sample of some of the panels I have been to personally.
San Rafael Swell, UT - Rock Art

I would love to hear some of your explanations for what these things are if you claim that indeed our ancestors were lying. They say they are Star Beings and Ant People, plain and simple. There are thousands of these panels all over the desert, and who knows how many more hidden away. I have found a few myself that may be uncharted. The thing about these panels is that they are VERY hard to locate, because you can't exactly get a map to them. A lot of them are hidden away unless you know people, due to the large amount of idiots defacing the panels and ruining them forever.

I understand what you are saying about the artifacts you have posted TC, however the rock art and myths of southern Utah are a whole different story.

edit on 4-12-2013 by roncoallstar because: (no reason given)

It's an unjustified, very very big leap of faith to go from saying they had no imagination unless they saw it for real. As an illustrator I can't tell you how wrong that is. Once you have an idea of form or anatomy, even the slightest idea of it you can draw however you want. And as mentioned with the folk tales and myths the cultures bring and the mind altering plants anything can happen. You don't need to see an Alien Astronaut to be able to draw a human like figure with some disproportional aspects. You ignore all the symbolism and religion/folk tales these cultures bring. And it's something they relied heavily on. They are not making it up in the interest of lying to future people to discover them. I don't think they planned that far ahead... It's called telling a story, you know like Star Wars...

reply to post by EnPassant


You cannot compare a painting from 1977 to an image that is 4,000+ years old. ALso, it doesn't matter what you see in the paintings, because the Indians themselves TELL you what they are. There is no mystery here.

AliceBleachWhite
reply to post by roncoallstar

 

To bring your whole lecture on something coming from nothing where there's no point of reference for imagination to a crashing halt;
Pareidolia

People have been seeing shapes of monsters, things, people, and animals in the clouds since there have been people, and/or since there have been clouds.
They could have readily warped or transferred what they thought they saw in the shapes of clouds, in interpreting it to stone.
Shapes in clouds then translates into "Sky People" ... and, well, do the math.

Add to that our ancestor's recreational activities and proclivities for and toward the ingestion of spirit quest inducing mind altering plants, and fungi, and, well, the figures carved out of stone are pretty tame by comparison of what all sorts of substances can do to the brain in causing it to see things.

Just because you can't imagine or think of it, doesn't mean others can't.

edit on 12/4/2013 by AliceBleachWhite because: (no reason given)

There it is again, the fundamental flaw in this type of thinking. First of all, you are comparing two entirely different frames of mind. Secondly, they SAY exactly what they are. Not one of our ancestors said that they saw shapes in the clouds or anything as silly as that. People need to stop ignoring the stories and legends that go along with these images and artifacts. These aren't random pictures, and if you believe they are, then you have no idea what you are talking about or the history behind them.

Not only have I done a vast amount of research on this subject, I have personally been to a lot of these sites.

Blue Goblin

roncoallstar
reply to post by Blue Goblin

 

What you are saying makes sense on a certain level, however I strongly disagree and I will tell you why. You are comparing our ancestors' "frame of reference" to that of modern day man. That is the fundamental flaw in this type of thinking. True these things could very well be made up as you say, but the problem is that our ancestors left no evidence that they made any of this stuff up. In fact, we have a giant stockpile of evidence to suggest otherwise across ALL ancient civlizations. I have no reason to believe that our ancestors would make any of this stuff up for a few reasons.

First, in my opinion they could not have possibly made this stuff up, without having some sort of reference. I am not a believer in that you can create something out of nothing. I believe anything you can imagine has to have some sort of reference, otherwise it could not be imaginable. For instance, we can have our artists come up with the most original things, however they can only come up with new things using the knowledge and the experiences they have learned in their own time. Therefore, our ancestors could not have made this stuff up without seeing it in my opinion.

Secondly, what exactly would they have to gain by making such things up? Our ancestors who told these legends and left these artifacts behind can not be compared to modern day civilization. They didn't have television and the internet and the human Ego was not at the forefront as it is today. I am of the opinion that our ancestors were in touch with this earth on a deeper level, and they worked together rather than worked against each other as it is today. I have no reason to believe these people lied. Maybe you do because I am willing to bet most of you are very familiar with modern day humans and their ability to be extremely deceptive.

I still believe the rock art of the American Southwest is the best evidence we have of other lifeforms in our past. It's a shame that most of this rock art not as well known as some of the more popular panels. Keep in mind these panels are EVERYWHERE all across the entire western US. They literally put the panels everywhere to make sure that people would see them, and the modern day American Indians say EXACTLY what they are.

Here is just a sample of some of the panels I have been to personally.
San Rafael Swell, UT - Rock Art

I would love to hear some of your explanations for what these things are if you claim that indeed our ancestors were lying. They say they are Star Beings and Ant People, plain and simple. There are thousands of these panels all over the desert, and who knows how many more hidden away. I have found a few myself that may be uncharted. The thing about these panels is that they are VERY hard to locate, because you can't exactly get a map to them. A lot of them are hidden away unless you know people, due to the large amount of idiots defacing the panels and ruining them forever.

I understand what you are saying about the artifacts you have posted TC, however the rock art and myths of southern Utah are a whole different story.

edit on 4-12-2013 by roncoallstar because: (no reason given)

It's an unjustified, very very big leap of faith to go from saying they had no imagination unless they saw it for real. As an illustrator I can't tell you how wrong that is. Once you have an idea of form or anatomy, even the slightest idea of it you can draw however you want. And as mentioned with the folk tales and myths the cultures bring and the mind altering plants anything can happen. You don't need to see an Alien Astronaut to be able to draw a human like figure with some disproportional aspects. You ignore all the symbolism and religion/folk tales these cultures bring. And it's something they relied heavily on. They are not making it up in the interest of lying to future people to discover them. I don't think they planned that far ahead... It's called telling a story, you know like Star Wars...

I hate to break it to you, but ALL ancient civilizations even say themselves that ALL the information was given to them, not imagined. And again, stop comparing modern day artists to ancient people. The difference in frame of reference is vast. Our artists can come u with a lot of things today because our pool of resources of information is much greater.

roncoallstar

Blue Goblin

roncoallstar
reply to post by Blue Goblin

 

What you are saying makes sense on a certain level, however I strongly disagree and I will tell you why. You are comparing our ancestors' "frame of reference" to that of modern day man. That is the fundamental flaw in this type of thinking. True these things could very well be made up as you say, but the problem is that our ancestors left no evidence that they made any of this stuff up. In fact, we have a giant stockpile of evidence to suggest otherwise across ALL ancient civlizations. I have no reason to believe that our ancestors would make any of this stuff up for a few reasons.

First, in my opinion they could not have possibly made this stuff up, without having some sort of reference. I am not a believer in that you can create something out of nothing. I believe anything you can imagine has to have some sort of reference, otherwise it could not be imaginable. For instance, we can have our artists come up with the most original things, however they can only come up with new things using the knowledge and the experiences they have learned in their own time. Therefore, our ancestors could not have made this stuff up without seeing it in my opinion.

Secondly, what exactly would they have to gain by making such things up? Our ancestors who told these legends and left these artifacts behind can not be compared to modern day civilization. They didn't have television and the internet and the human Ego was not at the forefront as it is today. I am of the opinion that our ancestors were in touch with this earth on a deeper level, and they worked together rather than worked against each other as it is today. I have no reason to believe these people lied. Maybe you do because I am willing to bet most of you are very familiar with modern day humans and their ability to be extremely deceptive.

I still believe the rock art of the American Southwest is the best evidence we have of other lifeforms in our past. It's a shame that most of this rock art not as well known as some of the more popular panels. Keep in mind these panels are EVERYWHERE all across the entire western US. They literally put the panels everywhere to make sure that people would see them, and the modern day American Indians say EXACTLY what they are.

Here is just a sample of some of the panels I have been to personally.
San Rafael Swell, UT - Rock Art

I would love to hear some of your explanations for what these things are if you claim that indeed our ancestors were lying. They say they are Star Beings and Ant People, plain and simple. There are thousands of these panels all over the desert, and who knows how many more hidden away. I have found a few myself that may be uncharted. The thing about these panels is that they are VERY hard to locate, because you can't exactly get a map to them. A lot of them are hidden away unless you know people, due to the large amount of idiots defacing the panels and ruining them forever.

I understand what you are saying about the artifacts you have posted TC, however the rock art and myths of southern Utah are a whole different story.

edit on 4-12-2013 by roncoallstar because: (no reason given)

It's an unjustified, very very big leap of faith to go from saying they had no imagination unless they saw it for real. As an illustrator I can't tell you how wrong that is. Once you have an idea of form or anatomy, even the slightest idea of it you can draw however you want. And as mentioned with the folk tales and myths the cultures bring and the mind altering plants anything can happen. You don't need to see an Alien Astronaut to be able to draw a human like figure with some disproportional aspects. You ignore all the symbolism and religion/folk tales these cultures bring. And it's something they relied heavily on. They are not making it up in the interest of lying to future people to discover them. I don't think they planned that far ahead... It's called telling a story, you know like Star Wars...

I hate to break it to you, but ALL ancient civilizations even say themselves that ALL the information was given to them, not imagined. And again, stop comparing modern day artists to ancient people. The difference in frame of reference is vast. Our artists can come u with a lot of things today because our pool of resources of information is much greater.

Dude, your whole argument is that ancient cultures only painted and sculpted what was real to them.

Think about that for a moment and understand why for most rational people that is both unlikely and silly as a form of 'evidence'.

Beyond that, it's simply a wrong premise when there is plenty of real evidence that they had just as much imagination and creativity as we do today. What they often didn't have was the scientific method of separating fantasy, spiritualism and mysticism from reality.

Seems you lack it as well.

the ancient astronaut theory is intriguing, however, like you mentioned in the OP -- those statues could be numerous things -- just because they resemble what we would call an astronaut doesn't mean that's what it actually is. . . it could have very well have been ceremonial helmets like you also stated, I could definitely see that in the images provided.

HOWEVER, all the writings of beings coming from the heavens down to Earth that are recorded in several civilizations whom, in fact, had no formal contact with one another is a little eerie to say the least

~Sovereign

reply to post by JadeStar


What is your theory about why the "delusion" that many ancient cultures had that their ancestors came from the stars was so prevalent?

My unsubstantiated theory is that I'm trapped on a planet of crazy people. I'd never have presumed my ancestors came from the stars.

So why did so many ancients believe this? Most modern American indians have this in their culture somewhere to this day.

What is the psychology behind this do you think?

I'm not saying I agree with the AA interpretation in any way. But the psychology fascinates me.

KellyPrettyBear
reply to post by JadeStar

 

What is your theory about why the "delusion" that many ancient cultures had that their ancestors came from the stars was so prevalent?

It varies from culture to culture and there are just as many cultures who believe their ancestors came out of the depths of the earth. Or were born of fire, or came from the ocean. It is because these things were powerful natural forces and sources of great mystery in the ancient world and as such they formed a powerful creation myth.

So it's selection bias.

Programs like Ancient Aliens focus on just the cultures who had the "sky" as their creation myth because the sky for most people not associated with astronomy is still this mysterious thing today.

Meanwhile cultures whose creation myths have to do with coming out of the earth, or sea or a fiery volcano get overlooked.

People like to think myth making ended with the rise of science but in reality programs like Ancient Aliens depend upon people's ignorance of science about the sky to create an altogether new, global, myth which ties these cultures who worshiped the sky or had it as a key part of their creation myth, together in one neat, tidy box which sounds "plausible" to the plebs.

As an aside, in reality all of us are made out of star stuff. All the heavy elements (stuff heavier than hydrogen and helium) which make up planets, organic molecules and us were forged in the centers of early, massive stars which exploded it all out into the universe. So in reality, yes, we all came from the stars. The atoms in our bodies were once in the center of stars.

reply to post by JadeStar


Nice reply. I'm really big on awareness of selection bias myself. Under stand selection bias and you understand much of human behavior.

That said, how do you explain books like "encounters with star people"? Are countless generations of american indians to this day deluded liars who can't distinguish between aliens that visit their homes and swamp gas weather balloons and the planet Venus?

I may go so far as to try and meet the author and some Natives. They cant all be confused delusional liars. .

We know monkeyman could draw well on caves and indeed it was art, we never knew how it happened that monkeyman started drawing, decided to hide his genitals with some form of fur clothes, decided to make fire, started thinking like a much more advanced being than an animal and how the human mind evolved.

Why are those pervert monkeys (the chimps) in the zoo still not doin' something to hide their quite human looking genitals? Why aren't they freaking using the darn hands they have to rub some sticks to make a fire? Why aren't they making wooden weapons, why aren't they acting like humans? Why are they not behaving more accordingly? Where are you science? It just happened, one defect in the brain one day made a smarter race of monkeys. Cool story

There is no solid evidence of ancient civilizations really seeing some advanced technology but there is a lot of people and I give credibility to native Americans, you just can't say that every single civilization in the world was just superstitious and has made up their story - it cannot be proven... the question of have they seen something like that or not is just as possible, there is no 'They have made it up, they imagined it' FOR SURE

In t he same way, watch the video with Australian tribes and how they would react when they first saw an airplane.

Why did Native Americans call the first trains 'iron horses'? How many examples of technology explained in terms of commonly used words people over the world have used? is there any evidence that something is absolutely so and they never meant something else? No there isn't claiming anything with certainty is false, and I address the many claims of 'They imagined it, made it up for sure' - how do you even know what was made up and what was not? In fact, there has been events that have shown to describe a REAL EVENT happening and not just a fairy tale.


The theory is called Ancient Astronaut Theory and the show Ancient Aliens is only giving it a bad name as it goes too high in speculation. That does not mean that the general idea of some other civilization, unless proven otherwise, should be dismissed as a possibility.

And placing everyone who has reasons based on these ancient people events (unproven to be certain but unreasonably dismissed as 'imagination' when they are claimed to have represented something real) under the 'believer' flag is just hilarious.

For me there is no definite 'YES' to have this planet been visited but I can absolutely say it is possible...

ImpactoR
how do you even know what was made up and what was not?

By looking at what was taken out of context by ancient alien "theorists" and putting it back in its proper context within the culture and time. That's what anthropologists do. Look it up. They don't typically write books about "ancient aliens" or appear on TV putting forward nonsense theories.

And perhaps in the end, we can't know what was made up and what was not. That doesn't make it particularly good evidence to support an outrageous claim.

The rational person takes those stories for what they most likely were and that's anything but evidence for ancient visitation by intelligent extraterrestrials because that explanation is the least likely of all possible answers.

In science the answer to every unknown is not this:

roncoallstar

There it is again, the fundamental flaw in this type of thinking. First of all, you are comparing two entirely different frames of mind. Secondly, they SAY exactly what they are. Not one of our ancestors said that they saw shapes in the clouds or anything as silly as that. People need to stop ignoring the stories and legends that go along with these images and artifacts. These aren't random pictures, and if you believe they are, then you have no idea what you are talking about or the history behind them.

Not only have I done a vast amount of research on this subject, I have personally been to a lot of these sites.

Do you read Sumerian/Akkadian?
How about the Sanscrit of the Harappan/Vedic culture?
People DID have dreams, visions, saw things in clouds, and other "silly" things, and because, like many folk on here, they used their FEELINGS to understand their world around them as opposed to Reason, these silly things impressed them enough such so they told others, and/or immortalized the experiences in whatever medium they had available them, whether stone, paint, or even body tattoos.

Saying you've read some books and were a tourist is entirely worthless to this discussion.
If you can provide University accreditation as a reference of authority, that'd be nice, but, all the same, I and anyone else will still disagree because, well, some of us might just have accreditation in relational applicable fields, or at least accreditation such there's confidence in the fidelity of the Academic such to refute.

reply to post by JadeStar


I am saying you have faith in something and you don't know it.

roncoallstar

Blue Goblin

roncoallstar
reply to post by Blue Goblin

 

What you are saying makes sense on a certain level, however I strongly disagree and I will tell you why. You are comparing our ancestors' "frame of reference" to that of modern day man. That is the fundamental flaw in this type of thinking. True these things could very well be made up as you say, but the problem is that our ancestors left no evidence that they made any of this stuff up. In fact, we have a giant stockpile of evidence to suggest otherwise across ALL ancient civlizations. I have no reason to believe that our ancestors would make any of this stuff up for a few reasons.

First, in my opinion they could not have possibly made this stuff up, without having some sort of reference. I am not a believer in that you can create something out of nothing. I believe anything you can imagine has to have some sort of reference, otherwise it could not be imaginable. For instance, we can have our artists come up with the most original things, however they can only come up with new things using the knowledge and the experiences they have learned in their own time. Therefore, our ancestors could not have made this stuff up without seeing it in my opinion.

Secondly, what exactly would they have to gain by making such things up? Our ancestors who told these legends and left these artifacts behind can not be compared to modern day civilization. They didn't have television and the internet and the human Ego was not at the forefront as it is today. I am of the opinion that our ancestors were in touch with this earth on a deeper level, and they worked together rather than worked against each other as it is today. I have no reason to believe these people lied. Maybe you do because I am willing to bet most of you are very familiar with modern day humans and their ability to be extremely deceptive.

I still believe the rock art of the American Southwest is the best evidence we have of other lifeforms in our past. It's a shame that most of this rock art not as well known as some of the more popular panels. Keep in mind these panels are EVERYWHERE all across the entire western US. They literally put the panels everywhere to make sure that people would see them, and the modern day American Indians say EXACTLY what they are.

Here is just a sample of some of the panels I have been to personally.
San Rafael Swell, UT - Rock Art

I would love to hear some of your explanations for what these things are if you claim that indeed our ancestors were lying. They say they are Star Beings and Ant People, plain and simple. There are thousands of these panels all over the desert, and who knows how many more hidden away. I have found a few myself that may be uncharted. The thing about these panels is that they are VERY hard to locate, because you can't exactly get a map to them. A lot of them are hidden away unless you know people, due to the large amount of idiots defacing the panels and ruining them forever.

I understand what you are saying about the artifacts you have posted TC, however the rock art and myths of southern Utah are a whole different story.

edit on 4-12-2013 by roncoallstar because: (no reason given)

It's an unjustified, very very big leap of faith to go from saying they had no imagination unless they saw it for real. As an illustrator I can't tell you how wrong that is. Once you have an idea of form or anatomy, even the slightest idea of it you can draw however you want. And as mentioned with the folk tales and myths the cultures bring and the mind altering plants anything can happen. You don't need to see an Alien Astronaut to be able to draw a human like figure with some disproportional aspects. You ignore all the symbolism and religion/folk tales these cultures bring. And it's something they relied heavily on. They are not making it up in the interest of lying to future people to discover them. I don't think they planned that far ahead... It's called telling a story, you know like Star Wars...

I hate to break it to you, but ALL ancient civilizations even say themselves that ALL the information was given to them, not imagined. And again, stop comparing modern day artists to ancient people. The difference in frame of reference is vast. Our artists can come u with a lot of things today because our pool of resources of information is much greater.

So because they had no apparent inspiration for such images, ALIENS. Do you believe everything native Americans tell you? Of course, they are old so why on earth would they lie right?! I take it you are also a devout Muslim, Christian Pagan along with some various african tribe religion follower. Your logic is beyond me I'm sorry.

roncoallstar
reply to post by EnPassant

 

You cannot compare a painting from 1977 to an image that is 4,000+ years old. ALso, it doesn't matter what you see in the paintings, because the Indians themselves TELL you what they are. There is no mystery here.

edit on 4-12-2013 by roncoallstar because: (no reason given)

Ok, good point. Can you provide me with a link to what they say?

bitsforbytes
reply to post by JadeStar

 

I am saying you have faith in something and you don't know it.

And you'd be wrong. Sorry. There is a difference between hope and faith. Its a subtle one but a distinction must be made.

reply to post by JadeStar


He probably means you have an organized mindset which gives your life meaning which you would be loathe to discard, and which perhaps you might be tempted to act irrationally in defense of; should one if your basic premises seem to be challenged; which you might deem as pure unassailable logic; but which others might reasonably view as properly assailable.

Another contributing factor is of course astronomy. So many ancient myths and tales of the gods 'derring do's' contain astronomical information.
There must have been a genius or two amongst those old astronomer priests back in the day. What better way to preserve such information than to present it in the form of archetypal allegory.
So of course gods come from the sky...where else?