My issue with 'proof' of alien existence.

I believe that we are not alone however some of the supposed proof that comes from ancient civilizations like Egyptians or Mayans or wherever for me just doesn't really cut it and I don't understand the hype for it as cutting edge evidence for some people. For example the statues of those 'ancient astronaughts'

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f2fb3b51d0e1.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8a31c29f61ab.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fe802a18d517.jpg[/atsimg]

Yeah they look like slightly non human or pilot like, but is this proof. They could be helmets or ceremonial things made out of anything. Or they are just works of imagination. If I went into a workshop and carved a statue like this and showed the internet saying its just a cool idea that popped into my head, people would be posting things like 'pretty interesting looks cool', 'wow, Harry you are amazing at sculpting marry me', and 'cool statue dude'. However if I then posted 'I didn't make this I found it in a Mayan tomb'. The replies would explode to 'HOLY # PROOF OF EXTRATERRESTRIAL ASTRONAUTS BUILDING PYRAMIDS PASSING ON KNOWLEDGE, LOOK AT THE SHAPE OF ITS HEAD THAT'S NO HUMAN.'

I am of course exaggerating the enthusiasm of the replies but that's the idea. Say the world was wiped out completely to to a wasteland by nuclear war but somehow the Simpsons memorabilia remained in tact in a certain vault. Survivors can come to the surface of the earth again a couple of thousand years on and they find this Simpsons memorabilia. Can you imagine them coming up with all kinds of theories about 4 fingered , circular bellied human like creatures teaching the ancient humans of 2013 about architecture and engines and posting all over their internet about it... You can see where I'm going.

I'm just saying I think people are getting a bit too worked up over old artwork. If you think that a few drawings that look like discs or sculptures that resemble a modern pilot is proof of intelligent beings out there visiting earth you may as well join every religion and cult out there if you are convinced by such vague proof of some happenings a good few life times ago.

My two cents.

reply to post by Blue Goblin


One of the problems with many adherents to fringe ideas is that adherents rely more heavily on their FEELINGS about any number of fringe subjects than they often do when it comes to all the 'boring' party pooper data.

FEELINGS are so much more exciting, no?

We see this all the time in the UFO culture with people making statements, even here on ATS the likes of "I saw a spooky light in the sky and it made me FEEL funny ... ".

I like to call this "Cockroach Reasoning". Such folks FEEL their way around subjects with their feelings, as opposed to going over all the relevant data, comparing to similar data, and reasoning out a conclusion based on said data.

reply to post by Blue Goblin


You make some good points but you're wrong.

Aliens have visited this rock and they mated with the native species. (we were their slaves for work and pleasure.)

Can you imagine being a sex slave for an alien? Wow! It may be horrific or ecstasy.

Open your mind you'll open your......everything.

AliceBleachWhite
reply to post by Blue Goblin

 

One of the problems with many adherents to fringe ideas is that adherents rely more heavily on their FEELINGS about any number of fringe subjects than they often do when it comes to all the 'boring' party pooper data.

FEELINGS are so much more exciting, no?

We see this all the time in the UFO culture with people making statements, even here on ATS the likes of "I saw a spooky light in the sky and it made me FEEL funny ... ".

I like to call this "Cockroach Reasoning". Such folks FEEL their way around subjects with their feelings, as opposed to going over all the relevant data, comparing to similar data, and reasoning out a conclusion based on said data.

Well said. I'm such a fan of your posts Alice.

I'd also add that people who look at such objects as were presented by them as 'evidence' are essentially trying to find aliens through art interpretation.

It totally looks past the more rational explanation that just as we have sci-fi and fantasy today we had it back then. And that assumes such statues, etc are -supposed- to be 'spacemen' rather than what is more likely, religious symbols, etc.

Our brains capacity to create works of art and craft has remained the same for about the last 30,000 years.

Why should anyone be surprised that ancient peoples painted things which get (wrongly) reinterpreted as aliens, spacemen and UFOs?

Perhaps Giorgio is intrigued but the rest of us rooted in reality are not.

It's like Sitchin supposedly being this expert in Sumerian texts but in reality, real scholars who -are- experts in Sumerian texts have presented evidence that Sitchin's interpretations of them are incorrect and biased towards a narrative he came up with.

It doesn't matter. The Ancient Aliens crowd goes on believing the new mythos.

I would like to add a bit of another analogy to your great OP here. Think of a modern work of art (painting, sculpture, pottery, etc...). How many people will look at that piece and have different feelings about what it means, it's message to THEM is distinct, which is the purpose of art, to move you with feelings. How many differing interpretations can there be for a single painting? A prime example is the Mona Lisa. How many years have art aficionados been discussing and sometimes arguing over what it means:

1. Is she smiling?
   
2. Is she frowning?
   
3. What is she thinking at this moment?
   
4. Who was the model?
   
5. Was there a model, or is it an Leonardo da Vinci's rendition of an effeminate self-portrait?
   

Why would ancient art be any different in these cases? There are as many explanations to these images and artifacts as there are eyes to view them IMO. One thing is definite, they were skilled artisans, and knew how to carve and sculpt.

That makes me wonder if some of the stone mason builders of these ancient artifices were also some of the artists of these artifacts? It is true that all work and no play makes a Mayan a dull day.

reply to post by JadeStar


I'm quite fringe in select areas and I 100% agree with this post. I've spot checked a while hecka lot of AA, elohim, sumerian and other stuff and nothing holds water. Religion and nearly all new age does no better.

People who get wrapped up in this stuff with dead zero credible evidence are psyopping themselves into a neutralized and powerless condition.

Nothing gets experimented with, improved or solved, when everything of importance happens in another dimension; is done only by powerful aliens or gods, or only after one is dead.

These twisted traps are world class examples of con mens games.

Krakatoa
That makes me wonder if some of the stone mason builders of these ancient artifices were also some of the artists of these artifacts? It is true that all work and no play makes a Mayan a dull day.

People who pass these ancient structures off as being "possibly alien" do a disservice to humanity and specifically to the very human cultures which created them.

They also underestimate the creativity, ingenuity, persistence and perhaps most importantly, the amount of TIME people had on their hands back then.

KellyPrettyBear
reply to post by JadeStar

 

I'm quite fringe in select areas and I 100% agree with this post. I've spot checked a while hecka lot of AA, elohim, sumerian and other stuff and nothing holds water. Religion and nearly all new age does no better.

People who get wrapped up in this stuff with dead zero credible evidence are psyopping themselves into a neutralized and powerless condition.

Nothing gets experimented with, improved or solved, when everything of importance happens in another dimension; is done only by powerful aliens or gods, or only after one is dead.

These twisted traps are world class examples of con mens games.

Brilliant post. Green star for you. I blame Von Daniken for starting all this nonsense.

I don't rule out the possibility that an alien species could have visited Earth in the past (if intelligence is not exceedingly rare in the Galaxy, that almost certainly would have happened, perhaps even prior to human beings existing).

What I discount is that evidence of that will be found through arts and crafts and megaliths.

JadeStar

Krakatoa
That makes me wonder if some of the stone mason builders of these ancient artifices were also some of the artists of these artifacts? It is true that all work and no play makes a Mayan a dull day.

People who pass these ancient structures off as being "possibly alien" do a disservice to humanity and specifically to the very human cultures which created them.

They also underestimate the creativity, ingenuity, persistence and perhaps most importantly, the amount of TIME people had on their hands back then.

Agreed 100%. And, when all you have as a medium is stone, then you get REALLLLLY good at carving and shaping it with that amount of time. Many modern people can't accept the fact that skills can be lost, when they simply don't realize how many people around them would not know how to grow their own food, or even cook over an open fire (yes, I have had that conversation to my surprise). So is it such a stretch to think that once metals were in widespread use, the skills in stone masonry would be diminished over a minimum of about 2 generations (IMO).

reply to post by JadeStar


Thanks. It sucks that scientists don't claim me as one of their own; neither do 95% of spiritual people and many religious people would want me dead.

But Isaac newton was an alchemist and occultist; etc etc. Hundreds of examples like that.

So I'm nearly a team of one it always seems.

Though I agree that simply because carved figures "look" alien does not necessarily imply that they are alien, it also doesn't mean they aren't.

One side believes they were carved by indigenous hands to represent contact with possible alien creatures, the other believes they were carved by indigenous hands to represent a figment of their imaginations or some stylized representation of a person in some sort of dress. The question is, has anyone actually seen the person who carved the figurines and asked why they carved it like they did? Without actual Forensic evidence, all of our statements, on both sides, are simply inferences and conjecture.

The reason why some people may think these may represent figurines of possible alien creatures is because of the stories that many peoples, indigenous to the Americas and around the world, tell about gods from the sky. They may be simply flights of fancy or misinterpretation of natural phenomena, but there is some evidence that the stories may be accurate.

reply to post by deloprator20000


I don't disagree with you either. I just read "encounters with star people" and absolutely loved it. I'm certain that "something" with some reality has been happening out on those remote reservations. I don't know what however. I'd like to research this and learn more.

But that's a whole different thing than evangelizing about Enki being jesus and riding in on Nibiru to save us, based on really poor mistranslations of 5000 year old cuniform.

reply to post by Blue Goblin


I'm with you on this. I have thought the exact same thing as you in regards to similar topics.

For example, if a future Earth based civilization discovers some Marvel Super Hero merchandise from our time, how would it be interpreted? Would they assume that we all had super powers or came from another planet?

I always wonder, how do we know that we're not doing that now? How can we prove whether some of these discoveries we've made aren't just toys or items of fantasy from past ancestors?

I feel that some people are way too eager to jump to the idea of ET's rather than thinking logically about the obvious and more viable possibilities.

reply to post by Blue Goblin


Humans can believe and will have faith about an idea before it becomes proof or even when it is disproven. Those who believe don't really need proof.

Truth is simple yet elusive.

Have faith my brother, we will know the truth during the apocalypse.

Do you believe in something or do you only work on facts and proof?

I don't think it is possible to be human and not believe or have faith in something.

reply to post by Blue Goblin


Bottom line is, as much as it hurts and offends a lot of people here on ATS is...there is absolutely no proof of alien visitation to our planet, sure there are theories and interpretations, but there is no proof

I firmly believe that there is intelligent life out there, however I firmly believe that that intelligent life hasn't visited this planet as of yet, I also believe that it is highly unlikely that they ever will.

reply to post by Blue Goblin


What you are saying makes sense on a certain level, however I strongly disagree and I will tell you why. You are comparing our ancestors' "frame of reference" to that of modern day man. That is the fundamental flaw in this type of thinking. True these things could very well be made up as you say, but the problem is that our ancestors left no evidence that they made any of this stuff up. In fact, we have a giant stockpile of evidence to suggest otherwise across ALL ancient civlizations. I have no reason to believe that our ancestors would make any of this stuff up for a few reasons.

First, in my opinion they could not have possibly made this stuff up, without having some sort of reference. I am not a believer in that you can create something out of nothing. I believe anything you can imagine has to have some sort of reference, otherwise it could not be imaginable. For instance, we can have our artists come up with the most original things, however they can only come up with new things using the knowledge and the experiences they have learned in their own time. Therefore, our ancestors could not have made this stuff up without seeing it in my opinion.

Secondly, what exactly would they have to gain by making such things up? Our ancestors who told these legends and left these artifacts behind can not be compared to modern day civilization. They didn't have television and the internet and the human Ego was not at the forefront as it is today. I am of the opinion that our ancestors were in touch with this earth on a deeper level, and they worked together rather than worked against each other as it is today. I have no reason to believe these people lied. Maybe you do because I am willing to bet most of you are very familiar with modern day humans and their ability to be extremely deceptive.

I still believe the rock art of the American Southwest is the best evidence we have of other lifeforms in our past. It's a shame that most of this rock art not as well known as some of the more popular panels. Keep in mind these panels are EVERYWHERE all across the entire western US. They literally put the panels everywhere to make sure that people would see them, and the modern day American Indians say EXACTLY what they are.

Here is just a sample of some of the panels I have been to personally.
San Rafael Swell, UT - Rock Art

I would love to hear some of your explanations for what these things are if you claim that indeed our ancestors were lying. They say they are Star Beings and Ant People, plain and simple. There are thousands of these panels all over the desert, and who knows how many more hidden away. I have found a few myself that may be uncharted. The thing about these panels is that they are VERY hard to locate, because you can't exactly get a map to them. A lot of them are hidden away unless you know people, due to the large amount of idiots defacing the panels and ruining them forever.

I understand what you are saying about the artifacts you have posted TC, however the rock art and myths of southern Utah are a whole different story.

reply to post by roncoallstar


To bring your whole lecture on something coming from nothing where there's no point of reference for imagination to a crashing halt;
Pareidolia

People have been seeing shapes of monsters, things, people, and animals in the clouds since there have been people, and/or since there have been clouds.
They could have readily warped or transferred what they thought they saw in the shapes of clouds, in interpreting it to stone.
Shapes in clouds then translates into "Sky People" ... and, well, do the math.

Add to that our ancestor's recreational activities and proclivities for and toward the ingestion of spirit quest inducing mind altering plants, and fungi, and, well, the figures carved out of stone are pretty tame by comparison of what all sorts of substances can do to the brain in causing it to see things.

Just because you can't imagine or think of it, doesn't mean others can't.

bitsforbytes

I don't think it is possible to be human and not believe or have faith in something.

You sayin' I'm not human?

reply to post by roncoallstar


Your link blew me away.

Thanks buddy, bloody awesome.

AliceBleachWhite
reply to post by Blue Goblin

 

One of the problems with many adherents to fringe ideas is that adherents rely more heavily on their FEELINGS about any number of fringe subjects than they often do when it comes to all the 'boring' party pooper data.

FEELINGS are so much more exciting, no?

We see this all the time in the UFO culture with people making statements, even here on ATS the likes of "I saw a spooky light in the sky and it made me FEEL funny ... ".

I like to call this "Cockroach Reasoning". Such folks FEEL their way around subjects with their feelings, as opposed to going over all the relevant data, comparing to similar data, and reasoning out a conclusion based on said data.

You are confusing feelings with wishful thinking. Feelings/intuition can often be a good starting point so long as they don't contradict facts.