Khufu Cartouche in GP Dated - Centuries Old

Scott Creighton
I felt it was important that this latest information on the Khufu Cartouch controversy be given a thread of its own as it is somewhat buried in the previous thread.

It now seems that paint WAS taken from the cartouche of Khufu and that it HAS been dated. The result... sit down folks... the result of the dating apparently dates the pigment from the Khufu cartouche to "centuries". Not millennia as you might expect but "centuries". Here is the Google translation from the Arabic of Professor Ahmed Saied (apparently of Cairo University) who has been following and commenting on this story:

Saied: "...they have analyzed samples of the cartouche of Khufu and reached the result, which is that Khufu did not build the Great Pyramid and that the ink used in the cartridges to jot down details constructed the pyramid is not old, but the age of the pyramid itself is larger than life, cartouche centuries, which confirms that the pyramid is not due to Khufu ..." - Source (4th paragraph).

It certainly seems that Professor Saied is saying that:

a) The paint samples were taken from the Khufu Cartouche (and it seems a this was done a number of years ago).
b) The samples HAVE been analysed (in Germany).
c) Results of the tests HAVE been returned and are known.
d) The paint "is not old" but "centuries".

The implications of this are far-reaching. If true, then this proves beyond doubt, as many alternative researchers have long suspected, that Col. Richard Howard-Vyse did indeed forge the Khufu Cartouche inside the Great Pyramid. This revelation also breaks the only tangible connection conventional Egyptology had that linked Khufu with the Great Pyramid.

Today there is a different landscape.

Regards,

SC

edit on 3/12/2013 by Scott Creighton because: (no reason given)

Great post ! This will help to push traditional Egyptologists over a bit so the 'new age' archeologists can gain some deserved respect and carry on to do some real work - It does, however, beggar the question: WHY did Howard-Vyse do the forgery?

reply to post by Scott Creighton


Im guessing you dont speak german do you? By the way in your video they were not sampling the cartouche but your willing to believe any thing without proof except that Khufu built it. This is hilarious if you want to seriously look into who built it the information is available. Now if you want to argue when it occurred we could say were misdating the reign of kheops. There is an ongoing argument about how long he ruled over egypt and when. But were still talking within a century or two.

Now for your video they were sampling in the queens chamber roof this is not where the cartouche is located. The cartouche is accessed by climbing through an area and i mean crawling. The cartouche is located between to huge stones in a relieving chamber you cant even stand up much less use a ladder. What they were sampling was the roof of the queens chamber which used to be painted with a red ochre. Problem is they used to run tours through there in the 1800s with torches hmmm think that could be the reason there getting such a low reading. By the way next to the cartouche is grafitti from an archeologist in 1948 cant miss it its huge. It was common practice for people to leave there mark well visiting the relieving chambers which is why you can no longer enter it without a government representative. Usually the antiquities director so your amatuer archeologists are lying to you. Because as we all know Zahi Hawass wouldnt have allowed them in there in the first place.

reply to post by Scott Creighton


Thanks Scott for bringing this ground breaking news to our attention. I wonder what else has been falsified in Egypt to make discoveries appear acceptable to the masses?

They need to send that little rover back up the shaft of the Queen's Chamber to collect a paint sample, through that little hole it drilled. The paint in that spot was left during the pyramid's construction. Carbon dating that paint will settle the real date of the Great Pyramid's construction.

In honor of this recently exposed hoax of Colonel Howard Vyse I present you a clip from Stargate the movie where Daniel Jackson informs a professor at a conference that the discovery of the cartouche of Khufu in the Great Pyramid was a fraud.

Watch the clip from 0:25 to 0:54 to hear the blast against the professor. I recommend watching the clip from the beginning. Actually, you should watch the whole clip as it pertains to this subject, minus the Martians/Men from Atlantis accusation.

lostinspace
reply to post by Scott Creighton

 

Thanks Scott for bringing this ground breaking news to our attention. I wonder what else has been falsified in Egypt to make discoveries appear acceptable to the masses?

They need to send that little rover back up the shaft of the Queen's Chamber to collect a paint sample, through that little hole it drilled. The paint in that spot was left during the pyramid's construction. Carbon dating that paint will settle the real date of the Great Pyramid's construction.

In honor of this recently exposed hoax of Colonel Howard Vyse I present you a clip from Stargate the movie where Daniel Jackson informs a professor at a conference that the discovery of the cartouche of Khufu in the Great Pyramid was a fraud.

Watch the clip from 0:25 to 0:54 to hear the blast against the professor. I recommend watching the clip from the beginning. Actually, you should watch the whole clip as it pertains to this subject, minus the Martians/Men from Atlantis accusation.

Danger will Robinson danger. Your in danger of confusing a SCI FI movie with reality. Look if you guys want to know who built the pyramids here are some good places to start. Trust me real life can be so much more interesting.

guardians.net...

www.academia.edu...

PS you really believe someone else built the pyramids in egypt when we can show they lived in the area since 6000 bc?

Hello Scott....

thank-you for bringing this news to ATS......is it real or is it crap.????....that is the question.....

according to orthodox zealots on this site and others on which you post .....any questioning of the orthodox Egyptian king list is the same as heresy.........where has this happened before in our western history??????

a very keen zealot on this website is positive that one cannot date this ochre paint.....new or old...

so do I live in a world where this can be tested or not.????????....for age...

here in Australia ....those competent can date Aussie Aboriginal cave paintings...which are much older than the GP...and ochre paint was very common.

one would think that in this age of the greatest technology available to man....answers could be found.....

send in the privateers I say....some-one like Robert Ballard or a person of the same ilk. Private enterprise is where the expertise and cutting edge technology is happening.........not with Egyptologists...the're hard-up for everything...

my opinion is that ZH was withholding information.....he was a shadey character and did not present well....who cares how many purchased qualifications he had.....degrees are spat out by the millions every year....and ZH ain't king of the mountain no more.....time for some new blood and new ideas.....

conventional wisdom leads to conventional outcomes.......why is the history of Egypt always being questioned.??????..

I look forward to what becomes of this topic.....though i'm not holding my breath.....

personally I would like to see some young Egyptian blood come forward ...break some eggs and make a new omelette....you know...move away from the mum and dad stuff....that the interested public has been fed the last 80yrs....

my opinion is that the answers will come from a maverick who's financier is not beholding to an orthodox institution....though this has probably already been done.....you know how things get done in this world.....

tri-lobe-1
Hello Scott....

thank-you for bringing this news to ATS......is it real or is it crap.????....that is the question.....

according to an orthodox zealots on this site and others on which you post .....any questioning of the orthodox Egyptian king list is the same as heresy.........where has this happened before in our western history??????

a very keen zealot on this website is positive that one cannot date this ochre paint.....new or old...

so do I live in a world where this can be tested or not.????????....for age...

here in Australia ....those competent can date Aussie Aboriginal cave paintings...which are much older than the GP...and ochre paint was very common.

one would think that in this age of the greatest technology available to man....answers could be found.....

send in the privateers I say....some-one like Robert Ballard or a person of the same ilk. Private enterprise is where the expertise and cutting edge technology is happening.........not with Egyptologists...the're hard-up for everything...

my opinion is that ZH was withholding information.....he was a shadey character and did not present well....who cares how many purchased qualifications he had.....degrees are spat out by the millions every year....and ZH ain't king of the mountain no more.....time for some new blood and new ideas.....

conventional wisdom leads to conventional outcomes.......why is the history of Egypt always being questioned.??????..

I look forward to what becomes of this topic.....though i'm not holding my breath.....

personally I would like to see some young Egyptian blood come forward ...break some eggs and make a new omelette....you know...move away from the mum and dad stuff....that the interested public has been fed the last 80yrs....

my opinion is that the answers will come from a maverick who's financier is not beholding to an orthodox institution....though this has probably already been done.....you know how things get done in this world.....

I agree Hawass was withholding information partly i think he wanted egyptians to make discoveries. In fact just a couple of months ago he admitted theres a chamber in the great pyramid still to be discovered. He said its the actual burial chamber and claims the other chambers were built to throw off thieves. I think he allready looked inside there just not divulging it yet until they can figure out how to get in.

reply to post by dragonridr


Hello dragonridr...

does this have anything to do with the French guy and the internal ramp.?????....plus hidden chambers and passage ways....

with the non destructive testing that can be do these days.....his theory would be easy and relatively cheap to pursue,he has some interesting circumstancial evidence to back up his claim....

trust an outsider to come up with an idea of an internal ramp.....that didn't come from orthodoxy......

reply to post by Scott Creighton


That settles it. There IS a cover up and has been one since the dawn of 'Egyptology'.

Khufu was never the builder of the great pyramid, just as i suspect the other pyramids on the Giza plateau were not built by those pharaohs attributed to them either.

There's only one thing to be done now..take another set of samples from inside the 'air shafts', beyond the 'copper hook door' and into the space behind that contains the red pigment painted onto the inner surface of the tunnel lining stones.

This red paint is unlikely to be another forgery, just because of where it is...it would have been near to impossible to have gained access centuries ago to forge the paint, so a C14 dating of that pigment is likely to give an accurate dating of the construction of the pyramid, at least when the tunnel was built. (likely to be the same time the rest of the pyramid was built)

This ought to have been done already, since those concerned have known the cartouche was a recent forgey for at least several years now.

The only reason for not testing this pigment from the shafts can only be to perpetuate the myth that Khufu built it, and not to reveal the true age of the main pyramids in Giza, which i believe to be at least 12,000 years old, possibly 14,000 years old, built at the same time the Sphinx.

The smaller, inferior contructions of pyramids in the area, are in my view, later additions, not earlier as conventional (now proven incorrect conventional wisdom) wisdom would have us think.

These are the dynastic pyramids...the bent, the step and the others are all recent attempts at replicating the stunning majesty of the great pyramids...which they obviously weren't able to reproduce particularly well.

There's little point to archaeology unless it is scrupulously honest, keeping a paradigm just to keep a paradigm is a disservice to all, including the archaeologists themselves.

The truth is the goal.

This news is the best in decades. The problem with mainstream science is that every bit of it is politically financed and thus also politically controlled. So, whenever the political establishment works out a theory , they instantly demand mainstream science to pursue some kind of hilarious experiments and cuff up some odd proofs that backs their theories. This is the way the game has been played for so long.

This news is actually what most independent people that has been doing research on these kind of areas has been claiming all along. They have methodically always been ridiculed. I have always claimed that mainstream science is the worst setback that has happened to real science since the Vatican controlled science. Perhaps this is the breakthrough we all have been waiting for. Maybe this is what eventually will cause MS-science and the people that controls it to climb down from their high horses and re-evaluate their methods and the ways they work. IMW, no one of the mainstream theories that has been pushed on people and presented as real truth are trustworthy, not even by a long shot. If real progress is indeed wanted within the different fields of such science, everything they basically have taught us up until now should be scrapped.

I am however afraid that nothing will change though. The arrogance will continue, and the hordes of MS scientists and debunkers that always follow in their foot steps will all of a sudden find new proof or ways to ridicule or discredit whatever outsiders may find. I am however thankful to this site though. There are more to be learned from brilliant ATS’ers than mainstream science ever have taught us.

I am looking forward to see how it all will play out.

Hello Helius...

if I may.....Egyptology is not a science....not like Engineering or physics or medicine, the hard sciences......

I don't think that one can blame science for the failings of Egyptology..... Egyptology has shown itself by it's actions or lack there of.......and it has nothing to do with science.....

maybe the science of personalities.....

reply to post by tri-lobe-1


I would say it even goes beyond personalities...it's simply a matter of national interest and of accepted doctrine.

Don't rock the boat...if you want to eat tomorrow. Many jobs, careers and doctorates depend on the status quo.

reply to post by VioletKarma


Scott... any response to the comments above?

He is quite right... the area they are shown sampling is certainly not in Campbell's chamber as we were led to believe... is this the official video from the samplers themselves?? Is yes then something is rotten in the state of Denmark my friend....

PA

holy #. sorry for the language but this is MASSIVE. we have to do everything we can to make sure this info doesn't get buried as it changes the whole landscape of Egyptology.

keep up the great work scott!

reply to post by Scott Creighton


so the Egyptians resurfaced their pyramids.

kind of like changing your carpets, wallpapers, sidings, roofing, etc

I've been reading further into the actual inscriptions in the chambers above the "Kings" chamber.... I must admit it is fascinating.... turns out all the transcriptions found were a mixture of hieratic styles from several different periods of history... but none of these period were the same period Khufu was purportedly alive.... Furthermore, all the marking contained the same grammatical error, a particular glyph shown as a sieve in the cartouche of Khufu..... Just so happens, coincidentally, that this same error in translation was represented in the only decent Hieroglyphic reference material available at the time.... Wilkinson's "Materia Hieroglyphica"...... It goes without saying that no royal inscriber or recorder would ever make the heinous error of representing his kings name wrong!! Coupled with the fact that the large majority of Egyption builders/stone masons etc had very little if any linguistic writing skills....

Personally I don't think we even need the results of the tests to prove Vyse forged these marks...

Scott and all others... have a read of this article.... VERY VERY interesting...

Describes the situation and timeline in great detail.....

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Some highlights:-

"How sure can we be of our accusations, a century and a half after the event?

Sure enough. For, as most forgers, Mr. Hill made, on top of all the other embarrassments, one grave mistake: a mistake that no ancient scribe could have possibly committed.

As it turned out, both source books by which Vyse-Hill were guided (Wilkinson's Materia Hieroglyphica and then de Laborde's Voyage) contained spelling errors; the unsuspecting team embodied the errors in the pyramid's inscriptions.

Samuel Birch himself pointed out in his report that the hieroglyph for Kh (the first consonant in the name Kh-u-f-u), which is (representing pictorially a sieve), "appears in Mr. Wilkinson's work without distinction from the solar disk." The Kh hieroglyph had to be employed in all the cartouches (spelling Khnem-Kh-u-f) which were inscribed in the two lower chambers. But the correct sieve symbol was not employed even once. Instead, the consonant Kh was represented by the symbol for the Solar Disk: whoever inscribed these cartouches made the same error as Wilkinson had made... .

When Vyse and Hill got hold of de Laborde's book, its sketch only deepened the error. The rock carvings depicted by him included the cartouche Kh-u-f-u on the right, and Khnum-kh-u-f on the left. In both instances, de Laborde—who admitted to ignorance of hieroglyphics and who made no attempt to read the symbols—rendered the Kh sign as a void circle

"His depiction thus served to enhance Vyse's and Hill's notion that the crucial cartouche of Kh-u-f-u should be inscribed in the uppermost chamber with the symbol for the Solar Disk (146a). But in doing so, the inscriber had employed the hieroglyphic symbol and phonetic sound for RA, the supreme God of Egypt! He had unwittingly spelled out not Khnem-Khuf, but Khnem-Rauf; not Khufu, but Raufu. He had used the name of the great God incorrectly and in vain; it was blasphemy in ancient Egypt.

It was also an error inconceivable for an Egyptian scribe of the times of the Pharaohs. As monument after monument and inscription after inscription make clear, the symbol for Ra and the symbol for Kh were always correctly employed—not only in different inscrip-tions, but also in the same inscription by the same scribe.

And, therefore, the substitution of Ra for Kh was an error that could not have been committed in the time of Khufu, nor of any other ancient Pharaoh. Only a stranger to hieroglyphics, a stranger to Khufu, and a stranger to the overpowering worship of Ra, could have committed such a grave error.

Added to all the other puzzling or inexplicable aspects of the discovery reported by Vyse, this final mistake establishes conclusively, we believe, that Vyse and his aides, not the original builders of the Great Pyramid, caused the red-painted markings to be inscribed."


Fascinating article......

PA

reply to post by dragonridr


Are you somehow incapable of disagreeing with someone without using ridicule and scorn? Because Scott seems to be doing an admirable job of it with your rudeness.

I could only quote for the great pyramid in saying there is no direct evidence that it was built for any Egyptian ruler. Unless papyri was unearthed in situ inside the pyramid all other papyri is just conjecture. As for the discovery of the "workmans village" this is just conjecture.ie. archaeologists have uncovered numerous occupational layers around Jerusalem but non of them built the Dome of the rock. As for the pyramid itself mainstream archaeologists are naturally quiet about its origin because there is no, and with a big NO, carvings, hieroglyphs or any other form of communication on or in the pyramid. The only writing inside is graffiti, whether ancient or modern its still graffiti. Until some evidence is found in situ anyone can speculate all they want and it is still all speculation. Every building of ancient Egypt whether crypt or temple is adorned with the evidence of the ruling pharaoh with only one exception. The great pyramid. ANY pharaoh in his time, if he caused the great pyramid to be built, would have his name splattered all over it. Although it can be said " lack of evidence is no evidence of anything" I think in this case its true. Till proper proof decides the issue.

reply to post by Scott Creighton


Lovin it!

I hope "we" figure out why there is such a resistance to ancient history during my lifetime.

This seems to be a stepping stone towards discussion long overdue.

Tx for the update!

b

I was just waiting for all those conspiracies... that will not bring nothing new to the table.

Paint on cartouche can be hardly taken as evidence, as already pointed out, as it can be restored more than once. Sure, I would love to see more items being dated, but I doubt after this little incident with 2 'indiana jones' style archeologist we will see any new analysis.

What really surprise me is how fast this got linked to biblical stories. And somehow conspiracy about forged cartouche sounds more true then no single evidence of 40 years exodus...

There's already a wealth of evidence in the entire pyramid complex surrounding the GP to connect it to Cheops/Khufu.

We've also a fully intact boat recovered from one of the boat pits connected to Cheops/Khufu.
Khufu Ship
There, too, is another boat pit that was only recently discovered and has been kept unexcavated on purpose for some time, but, is undergoing recovery, catalog, and preservation now-ish.

Additionally, there's even diary entries found on preserved papyrus giving detail on retrieving limestone blocks specifically for the pyramid.
Ancient Diary

But one papyrus is much more intriguing: it's the diary of Merrer, an Old Kingdom official involved in the building of the Great Pyramid of Cheops.

From four different sheets and many fragments, the researchers were able to follow his daily activity for more that three months.

"He mainly reported about his many trips to the Turah limestone quarry to fetch block for the building of the pyramid," Tallet said.

“Although we will not learn anything new about the construction of Cheops monument, this diary provides for the first time an insight on this matter," Tallet said.

Dating the GP, and connecting it to Cheops/Khufu does NOT hinge on any one singular piece of evidence, but an entire foundation of materials, artifacts, and study.



ETA: Though admittedly speculation, Hawass is on record making statement he feels the true burial chamber of Cheops/Khufu is still undiscovered and intact inside the Great Pyramid:
Treasure in Great Pyramid Awaits ...

Ultimately, these shafts may point the way to a secret burial chamber where Khufu (Cheops) was buried, Hawass said. While the pyramid already has three known chambers (one of which contains a sarcophagus), he said the true burial place of the pharaoh has yet to be found.

"I really believe that Cheops chamber is not discovered yet and all the three chambers were just to deceive the thieves, and the treasures of Khufu [are] still hidden inside the Great Pyramid, and these three doors could be the key to open this burial chamber," he said in the interview.

Time, will of course tell if any of that goes anywhere. Hopefully, it does and we can put an end to all this "mysteries of the pyramids" stuff, and focus on the truly amazing History of real people.