Woman has heartattack - everybody stands there filming!

reply to post by mlifeoutthere


I do get where you are coming from. I have witnessed similar, less life-threatening situations, mainly with cops and non-fatal accidents. So i do know the type of whom you speak and there are many of them. And the way they have to record every damn thing they see that is out of the ordinary can be frustrating. But I do have to play devil's advocate here for a moment.

I'm sure you understand that too many people offering aid can be dangerous. Sixteen people with sixteen opinions and sixteen attitudes trying to help the lady is just asking for all kinds of confusion. There does come a point where one or two or ten more people becomes a burden rather than an aid.

Then you have a crowd of people where most likely zero in the whole bunch of filming gawkers has any understanding of first aid applications. You said you, your parents, and a couple other people rushed to help; to a person with no sort of training seeing that I would bet they assume all that can be done is being done. I guess I couldn't judge the lack of action by the gawkers as a bad thing. Well that's it playing advocate.

I do understand your urge to smash the phones though. Such a large group filming a person dying on the spot is downright morbid. But hey, what can really be done about it? It's not like you or I could actually smash their phones, pleasing as that might be. The other emergency lights would come to take us away. Still, downright morbid.

reply to post by ownbestenemy


In NY, we were told to get verbal consent first. If they said no, then wait till they passed out, being unconscious is implied consent.

NB only covers doctors with the law, so if a doctor is at the store and comes upon an emergency he/she is covered from being sued.

TKDRL
reply to post by ownbestenemy

 

In NY, we were told to get verbal consent first. If they said no, then wait till they passed out, being unconscious is implied consent.

NB only covers doctors with the law, so if a doctor is at the store and comes upon an emergency he/she is covered from being sued.

Yep, it is silly to do so, but honestly, even if the consent isn't implied and you administer first aid regardless; it is a he-said/he-said situation. So long as you didn't try to perform some emergency procedure such as a tourniquet unless it was absolutely necessary, most "good Samaritans" will have no problem with their actions.

Of course, there is an ilk of lawyers just waiting for the good citizen to perform brotherly love and compassion for a buck though....

reply to post by ownbestenemy


If my family thought a proper reward for someone trying to save my life was to try and sue them into poverty, I would be utterly disappointed.

TKDRL
reply to post by ownbestenemy

 

If my family thought a proper reward for someone trying to save my life was to try and sue them into poverty, I would be utterly disappointed.

I am in agreement. I believe that natural human compassion should not be punished unless the State or the other person can show intent; but with today's society, showing intent is subjective in the eyes of the State.

A man clutching his chest that is pale, sweating and lethargic collapses to the ground, you can bet I will at least attempt to help. It is proven that even if you do not know how to properly administer CPR, you most likely are not doing anything anyway. The amount of pressure it takes to complete a compression is at a point where people would naturally not feel comfortable anyway.

As others have pointed out, this is nothing new. We spectate as a species and with the prevalence of mass and instant-media, it looks uglier than any other time in history because it always has been.

Back in 1999, my brother was at a mall in Seattle, and an elderly man dropped right on the floor and was having a heart attack. His wife was crying and yelling for help. People just kept walking by ignoring them. Only one person said they would run and call and ambulance, but everyone else just kept walking. My brother went over and saw that the man was barely breathing, and just about to stop breathing... my brother did not know how to do CPR at the time, but decided to start blowing air into his mouth. The wife was yelling that his pulse was coming back. The EMT's got there and got him to the hosp and they were able to save him.

The police contacted my brother and said that the woman wanted to reward him with money but he refused it. They said if he had not have done what he did, the man may have died. My brother died from leukemia many years ago and that woman never fails to send our family a card each year thanking us.

no video attached?

i kinda expected to see a youtube link

Our law states we need to ask if we can help, and if unconscious it means it's ok. You can break ribs if you do CPR properly so it is important to make sure to go through the initial steps of asking for consent (especially of people are filming). Filming - that's just low character IMO. So is gawking. When I see something like that (and it's well under control), I move on for no other reason than manners and respect. I wouldn't want everyone sucking up my oxygen and watching me die.

I would have called 911 and helped the first responders any way I could. Standing around with your phone wth? Really? I would not attempt CPR even though I know about it. One thing you don't do is make someone worse and I don't have a PHD. I remember a news article awhile back when a nurse called 911 from a nursing home and the operator told her to do CPR and she refused. You can definitely be sued. However everyone filming this should be slapped with improper photography which can be a felony here.

Can't even allow an old person to die with dignity. Gotta be the first to put that up on my Stupidbook!

I lost faith in the human race a long time ago.

To be just an observer or witness to someone else in dire straits is common behaviour if one happens to find themselves in such a situation, i.e rubbernecking. To try to assist another in such a event - whether one does or does not possesses the required training - is to be expected if circumstances call for it. However, to pull out your camera and start recording someone frothing at the mouth with their eyes rolled up as they lay helpless on the ground demonstrates a lack of sensitivity and basic decency regardless if others are already attempting to administer aid at the time.

Those who feel comfortable enough to record other people who have found themselves in life threatening situations should contemplate the following:

If a loved one collapses in your home at a family gathering; do you or the other family members pull out their cell phones and start recording while uncle Phil is applying CPR?

The entire behaviour of videotaping another person while in a grave situation is absurd when one contemplates this from a personal perspective. More empathy is needed.

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by mlifeoutthere

 

We've become a society full of sick voyeurs. It's an addiction I think, and an illness. Like the rubber neckers at a horrible car crash..but 10x's worse. You don't have the ability to help save lives at a car wreck, usually...so no guilt for looking and not helping. This though???

On a strictly moral, not legal issue? Just where IS the line between detached spectator and contributory cause of someone's death by omission of action? Sounds like a fair philosophical question, if nothing else.

Whatever happen to helping people.
We've become a sick society is no excuse.
I cant say anything else that wouldn't violate TC for how I feel about those that stood and did nothing except film.

Pimpintology
I would have called 911 and helped the first responders any way I could. Standing around with your phone wth? Really? I would not attempt CPR even though I know about it. One thing you don't do is make someone worse and I don't have a PHD. I remember a news article awhile back when a nurse called 911 from a nursing home and the operator told her to do CPR and she refused. You can definitely be sued. However everyone filming this should be slapped with improper photography which can be a felony here.

Can't even allow an old person to die with dignity. Gotta be the first to put that up on my Stupidbook!

I lost faith in the human race a long time ago.

edit on 1-12-2013 by Pimpintology because: of his early childhood vaccinations.

NO. you can NOT be sued. Not in the States. The reason the nurse refused was because it was against the employers POLICY and she didn't want to be FIRED. She is probably at a greater risk of being sued by the family for NOT beginning CPR.

I want to stress, that you should NEVER hold back from helping someone because of this fear. It is unfounded. PLEASE start CPR on someone who is unresponsive and not breathing. You are NOT going to make someone worse by trying...they are already dead. If you do NOTHING, then they remain DEAD without any chance of survival. If you don't have a breathing barrier or don't feel comfortable giving breaths, than just do chest compressions. Simply push down on the center of their chest (in between the breasts) at least two inches on an adult, 1-1.5 on a child at a rate of at least 100 times per minute.

If the person just collapsed, they probably have at least 6-8 minutes worth of oxygen in their blood. So be sure to call 911 first (so help is coming) and then start CPR.

mysterioustranger
Well? Only 1 person at a time can perform CPR

Wrong. CPR should always be done with at least 2 people unless only 1 is available. Only one person significantly lowers the effectiveness.

reply to post by mlifeoutthere
That would be in England?

Here, and the United States of America, this is sickeningly common. We actually have people who enjoy filming car wrecks/accidents and will wait for the police to respond, as they listen over a scanner for the location, so that they may go by and film the carnage.

When I was wasting my time in an institute of higher learning, I commented that many of our soon to be police officers would stand by watching a rape rather than calling the police or trying to stop it. Worse, in the event of a shooting, they would run away from the attacker in place of trying to overpower him. Then, once safe, they would gleefully watch the carnage as if they were sitting in a movie theater. The overwhelming majority challenged me, but could not deny that they had a strange attraction to both criminal acts. Worse, my later psychology classes would not only verify the strange attraction but also show the ways that they would justify not taking action.

It seems that the majority of us who develop problems from such events tend to be the more intelligent ones and the ones who are more concerned with the safety and lives of those around us. Both the victim and the observers of such crimes can develop symptoms of posttraumatic stress disorder, commonly known as PTSD, as well as other issues. Those who are more cold and uncaring tend to be able to stand by and never feel a thing. They may even take enjoyment from the suffering inflicted on another.

Those of us who do choose to react in a positive manner are becoming the minority in our civilization. Some say this is desensitization due to the constant bombardment of violent media and occurrences. However, I believe that a far more accurate view would be to say that people do not want to get involved for fear of what will happen to them, positive or negative. Our society has gotten to the point where that people will take legal action if you try to help them, whether any serious damage is done or not. Someone may enjoy a pretend rape, in public, and then sue the individual, even the police, who breaks up their fun mistaking it for an actual sexual assault. Recently, it has not been uncommon for young men to have their friends assault their girlfriends so that they may appear to be the hero. With all of this going on, people may simply not be able to distinguish between an actual problem and a real problem and decide not to get involved, letting it sort itself out on its own.

Worse, it seems that there is a growing market for videotapes and photographs, on the Internet, of anything of this nature.

The whole reason for this is that we as a society (and this isn't just a US thing, it's much more multinational) have gotten the idea in our heads that watching something happen is the same as participating in it. I remember a few months back I was out walking and someones car broke down. A crowd gathered and watched, I actually stepped forward and helped push the persons car while everyone else just filmed it. They believed that by documenting it they were participating in the event. With platforms like Facebook this is even worse because we've associated liking an event with supporting/participating in it.

It's essentially a defense mechanism for people to do nothing but feel like they're doing something.

Then on top of that there's social pressure, the majority of people don't want to be the one who takes the first action, it's much easier to follow a crowd. If the crowd is doing nothing, that's what the majority will continue to do. Stepping forward and doing something against that social pressure is quite difficult.

reply to post by Aazadan


I would say it's a part of the cause. Also the whole nanny-state mentality pounded into people's heads VIA the school system. We are taught only people given authority are allowed to act. If there is trouble, call 911 and wait for an authority figure to come save us. Etc etc.

TKDRL
reply to post by Aazadan

 

I would say it's a part of the cause. Also the whole nanny-state mentality pounded into people's heads VIA the school system. We are taught only people given authority are allowed to act. If there is trouble, call 911 and wait for an authority figure to come save us. Etc etc.

I don't think it's due to what's being taught in school rather I just think it's human nature or perhaps societal pressure. I equate the response as being the same as a teacher asking a class full of students for the answer to a problem. Most people will never speak up regardless of how sure they are that they're right (I was never one of those, I spoke up at every opportunity). People for whatever reason are naturally followers these days, and it takes someone actually stepping up and trying to do something to spur others into action.

I'll give another anecdote recently. I was at the pharmacy, this pharmacy has two drive thru's there were 7 cars ahead of me all in line for one specific terminal, I simply drove around them and used the other one. After I did 3 cars followed me.

People get very caught up in groupthink, and it causes them to not act when they should. Combine that with the idea that filming is doing something and you have a society that never acts to help another.

As for the whole call an authority figure thing, most authority figures aren't worthy of their positions and are just average people with an above average level of power. If I ever have kids one thing I will teach them from the outset is to challenge authority.

reply to post by mysterioustranger


Please take a Basic Life Support class from a local hospital. You will be taught that either one or two, yes TWO people, perform CPR.
How sad

jrod
This is shocking me. I've been CPR/First Responder certified all of my adult life, I've been a lifeguard. Those are pathetic people filming, with the new CPR standards all a lay responder has to do it chest compressions, no more mouth to mouth.(i usually carry a mask just in case).

There are no excuses. I am not a religious person but those who can stand there and film that deserve to go to hell.

Are you serious? You think someone who stands around an individual who's having a heart attack deserves to burn for eternity? The OP mentioned that his parents and a couple others rushed in to help. So what would you have all the other onlookers do then?.. Stand by without breathing or moving? Showering the ones helping with praise? Form a circle of prayer around the person having a heart attack? Oh, and congratulations. You're a certified first responder... I guess that means that everyone who isn't & happens to have their phone out at the scene deserves to be in hell.

Comments like this are the reason I stopped browsing ATS.

reminds me of the time when me and a buddy of mine were coming home and we saw a bunch of cars parked under an overpass. On the opposite side of the road there was smoke and a Ford ranger with 1/2 its engine smashed into the passenger side of the truck. Me and my buddy stopped to see what was going on and they said this truck just veered off the road and slammed into one of the support pillars. about 20-30 people just standing around. I asked if there was anyone in the vehicle now which was smoking. no one knew because no one went to check. So me and my buddy went down and sure enough there was a driver but no passenger (thank god because where he hit the pillar was dead on with the front passenger side of the vehicle and no one would have survived fitting on that side of the truck.) the driver was awake but messed up. He was wearing his seat belt and the airbag went off but he was still pretty messed up. car still smoking smell of gas everywhere we decided to get him out of the car and get him away from the vehicle. We did get yelled at by an emt after they showed up because we helped move him. But like we told her we really did not want to watch a man burn alive. We really thought it could go up any second.
To this day I still could not believe that at least 20 people were there some witnessed it and no one went down to even see if the guy was alive. Me and my buddy could have gone along with the "Mob mentality" but the first thing that goes through my mind when I saw that was what if it were me. Would I want someone to come and try to help or stand there like bumps on a log. We acted within moments of learning the basic facts. The guy did survive and about 10 years later I saw him in a store he had facial reconstruction and walked with a limp but was alive and well. Moral of the story is this. If you ever find yourself in a situation where your actions could mean the difference between the life or death of someone just ask yourself...what if that were me?