Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?

reply to post by KaelemJames


because of this life, you can appreciate that. without it, you would have no appreciation.

i think everyone in this thread is wrong. hehe

first of all, you MUST MUST MUSTTT, start with original premise, and that is the concept of knowledge.

knowledge in genesis, is not education, it's sex.

adam KNEW his wife and she begat. sex, its about sex.
how did that make them like the gods? well they were creating new life.
the gods created life by duplicating themselves.
procreation is quite similar.

the adam originally were male and female elohim, who were called adam.
this was changed after their introduction to the serpent of knowledge, the dna of procreation. that's what the tree of knowledge is -- dna for procreation.

i'm telling ya, i'm right about this.
the entire fall narrative was because jehovah en.lil didn't want procreating humans on his planet. so he took it to the heavenly courtroom and it was decreed that since it was his planet, the lifeforms on it, must be approved by him. the procreating adam were no longer allowed to have access to the tree of life, eternal full body regeneration. he demanded that human dna be nerfed. the legs of the serpent (dna) were cut off. the way to paradise was blocked. dna has to unzip so it can repair and regen body parts. when it unzips it looks like a serpent with legs.

this is not a case of if the jews or christians are right, this is a case of what the flip does the text say. lol

reply to post by OpinionatedB


And because of this life there are many who will never get to appreciate it. They turn their backs as they see it as a fairy tale. Even for those who believe have to walk the narrow path to get there. It is made plain in the Scripture, it is a difficult path.

But, I know what you are saying. I would rather have everyone experiencing it.

reply to post by KaelemJames


Theirs are their own choices, and it must be this way for freewill to exist. We have to let go of thinking we should control others choices, as they live by their desire, we by our own. It is simply that we desire different things.



"There is a life-force within your soul, seek that life.
There is a gem in the mountain of your body, seek that
mine.
O traveler, if you are in search of That
Don't look outside, look inside yourself and seek That.
I see so deeply within myself.
Not needing my eyes, I can see everything clearly.
Why would I want to bother my eyes again
Now that I see the world through His eyes?
There is a candle in the heart of man, waiting to be kindled.
In separation from the Friend, there is a cut waiting to be
stitched.
O, you who are ignorant of endurance and the burning
fire of love----
Love comes of its own free will, it can't be learned
in any school.
Until you've found pain, you won't reach the cure
Until you've given up life, you won't unite with
the supreme soul
Until you've found fire inside yourself, like the Friend,
You won't reach the spring of life, like Khezr."

(From the book, Rumi, Thief of Sleep)


I thought you might like that.

reply to post by undo


very interesting analogy, lol... because it makes sense.

Did you ever read the U2U I sent you... would like to hear your thoughts

OpinionatedB
reply to post by undo

 

very interesting analogy, lol... because it makes sense.

Did you ever read the U2U I sent you... would like to hear your thoughts

i read it and i think you may be onto something.

yep i do.

OpinionatedB
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I have not read anyone's post in this thread, only the OP.

There is something that should be explored here, in all seriousness. God, is perfect. I am sure no one can disagree on this point.

Then he would have created a perfect world with perfect people.

Is that what you see?

You also said there was something to explore in the O p yet you did not speak of it?

Care to?

Regards
DL

snoopy11
[

God is by necessity 'Good' but allows evil to happen because there can be no other way in such a construct as a 'physical universe'.

.

So then if man wants to be as good as God, and scriptures do say we are to try to be, then why do we try to end evil?

We should also just allow it. Right?

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

KaelemJames
[

Satan tricked them. After they ate from the tree, all of us were cursed. They chose knowledge of flesh over knowledge of the spirit (Spirit).

]

God put Satan right where A & E were and gave him the power to deceive them which according to you, he did.

If a superior intellect or power tricked your children, after you gave him access and the power to deceive them, would you punish them to the point of death lie God did with A & E?

Regards
DL

tadaman
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I was always under the impression that Jews dont consider our expulsion from paradise in the same way that Christians do.

I have read that they didnt see the expulsion as that of us from eden, but rather as God being expulsed from eden.

Earth WITH God was Eden. Earth without God was not.

We chose a division from God and that is why we were separated from him. Not because he judged us in the christian sense of sin and atonement. We stained our selves (wished to learn evil) and as a result we could no longer be with the unblemished. We did it. We judged ourselves (shame of our nudity). It was our choice to be without God (hid from him). It was Not his choice, (he called for us but we did not answer).

Sin is a weight. It is a filth that keeps you from the rising. It keeps you from the clean.

That is how I have accepted it and what I read anyways.

edit on 12 1 2013 by tadaman because: (no reason given)

How can you say we chose division from God when the myth says that we became as God by eating of the tree of good and evil?

That verse clearly shows that we got closer to God and not further from him. Hence the Jewish elevation and not the Christian fall.

If your child chooses to learn what you know, is he not saying that you are worthy of being emulated and is that not creating fellowship?

Yes it is.

Would you punish your child for trying to be like you?

God did when A & E did. Rather insane. Right?

Regards
DL

OpinionatedB
reply to post by KaelemJames

 

What they experienced, not even they understood, because it was in complete innocence, Anything in complete innocence can never be appreciated, not in truth, because there is no mode of comparison.

With the mode of comparison, evil, they can then truly KNOW God, on a much different level.

So you agree that Eden was where man was elevated and not the fall that Christians see. Good.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am

So then if man wants to be as good as God, and scriptures do say we are to try to be, then why do we try to end evil?

We should also just allow it. Right?

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

Hmm,

If a tornado rips through a town killing a baby. We might regard that as 'evil'.

But what in practical terms could you 'do'.

If you mean a willful act such as 'evil' perpetrated by a human such as torture then 'yes' we should try to end that kind of evil as it is unnecessary and wilful.

God doesn't do anything wilfully 'evil' but a physical Universe no matter how you try and construct one is going to sometimes contain 'bad things' hopefully the 'good' outweighs the 'bad'.

I don't think you should try and put yourself above God by thinking you could have made a better Universe.

It is a mystery why God makes a physical Universe in the first place, it seems to entail a lot of suffering in this and other worlds.

God obviously realises all this but makes one anyway.

So we are left with the only explanation being that God creates the physical Universe for some 'Grand Reason' that is he is compelled to create it for some 'overridingly' good reason.

God could have kept the Universe as a perfect idea inside the mind of God, and no one would have had to suffer at all.

But God knows all this, and still creates the Universe for whatever the 'Grand Reason' is.

so human created evil, yes by all means fight it.

evil created by random natural events, accept it, accept God has a 'Grand Plan'

reply to post by Greatest I am


arent you forgetting that they were lied to. Knowledge of evil did not make them more like God or make them closer to him....All the contrary. Which is why the serpent lied to them....to make them fall from grace like him........ Out of jealousy.

snoopy11

Greatest I am

So then if man wants to be as good as God, and scriptures do say we are to try to be, then why do we try to end evil?

We should also just allow it. Right?

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

Hmm,

If a tornado rips through a town killing a baby. We might regard that as 'evil'.

But what in practical terms could you 'do'.

If you mean a willful act such as 'evil' perpetrated by a human such as torture then 'yes' we should try to end that kind of evil as it is unnecessary and wilful.

God doesn't do anything wilfully 'evil' but a physical Universe no matter how you try and construct one is going to sometimes contain 'bad things' hopefully the 'good' outweighs the 'bad'.

I don't think you should try and put yourself above God by thinking you could have made a better Universe.

It is a mystery why God makes a physical Universe in the first place, it seems to entail a lot of suffering in this and other worlds.

God obviously realises all this but makes one anyway.

So we are left with the only explanation being that God creates the physical Universe for some 'Grand Reason' that is he is compelled to create it for some 'overridingly' good reason.

God could have kept the Universe as a perfect idea inside the mind of God, and no one would have had to suffer at all.

But God knows all this, and still creates the Universe for whatever the 'Grand Reason' is.

so human created evil, yes by all means fight it.

evil created by random natural events, accept it, accept God has a 'Grand Plan'

" God doesn't do anything wilfully 'evil'"

Then why does he admit that he let Satan to move him to do evil without cause In the Job story?

He is saying he willfully did evil.

Was it not also his will to torture Ki8ng David's baby for 6 days before finally killing it, ---- all because he was angry with David?

Yep. You must just have your head too deep in God's ass to see what his plan is really like.

Regards
DL

tadaman
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

arent you forgetting that they were lied to. Knowledge of evil did not make them more like God or make them closer to him....All the contrary. Which is why the serpent lied to them....to make them fall from grace like him........ Out of jealousy.

So you are saying God lied when he said they had become as Gods in knowing good and evil. Ok.

I agree as God lied through omission as well then as the snake gave more information than God did as to the consequences of eating from the tree of knowledge.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


no.

God said not to eat of it. Thats all.

The snake lied and said that God was hiding something.

I dont get why you would willingly twist that.

tadaman
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

no.

God said not to eat of it. Thats all.

The snake lied and said that God was hiding something.

I dont get why you would willingly twist that.

Truth is not twist.

You are correct that God gave one of many consequences. God count them and tell us who gave more information and who omitted much.

You will find that the liar is a prick and that that prick is your God. Look at him for the first time and see how vile he is.

Regards
DL

it's unfair to leave Islam out of this monotheistic debate

SisyphusRide
it's unfair to leave Islam out of this monotheistic debate

Not many Muslims here but I can adjust if they pop up.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


I see your argument is emotionally based.

Thats where I get off this train.

Of all emotions to get stuck on....

Enjoy.