Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?

Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?

The Jewish view. www.mrrena.com...

“Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue”

In a nutshell, the Jews saw man acquiring a moral sense equal to God’s, --- as man being elevated.
Gen 3; 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

The Christian view sees the same story and preaches our fall and all of us inheriting our forefather’s sin. www.biblegateway.com...

“They prove the loss not only of innocence but of original righteousness, and, with it, of the favour and fellowship of God.”

The Bible seems to favor the Jewish view.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Whose view is more intelligent and moral and why?

Regards
DL

The bible teaches that Adam and Eves offspring would live in enmity. That implies that the events in the garden led to negative consequences for the children who had nothing to do with the fall at Eden. However, the Bible leaves out an important part of the story,which is covered in the Koran.... God had declared to Satan even before the fall that he would punish those who follow Satan...AND also that God would forgive those who turn to Him in repentance. So its not all black and white. Humans are NOT born tainted with original sin. Instead, humans are born with the potential to do both good and evil. And a humans ultimate destiny is shaped by what he chooses to make his nature.

reply to post by Greatest I am


Normally I avoid these kinds of threads like the proverbial biblical plague (please excuse the pun.) However leaving out whether the book portrays real events and any other religiosity let's take a look.

The Bible seems to favor the Jewish view.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Assuming (we know what that does) that a god would be infinitely superior to humans ethically, morally and by any other measure I would think he / she, whatever, would not want to put an innocent to death because their father did something bad.

That said, I would side with the jewish interpretation as being correct. Anyway, they wrote the thing so I'd expect them to know what it meant.

Childishness falls away and elevates into maturity.

Avoiding falling creates perpetual childishness.

One who has never fallen has never learned to stand and walk... always needing to be carried.

reply to post by Greatest I am

Who was correct, Jews or Christians?

um...Neither.

Both are guilty of mass slaughter of non-believers of their stories so how can one be more right than the other?

Peace

Greatest I am
Who was correct, Jews or Christians?

Obviously the Jews were correct. But it is their myth, written by them and for them so logically it makes sense that they would know what it says. Although it shouldn't really be that hard for others to understand it either since it's written pretty clearly. Let's look at how clearly it is written shall we...?

In short God left the Garden for a bit, Adam and Eve ate from the tree and then....

Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

Well, there ya go. Eating the fruit gave them knowledge. Just like the name would suggest, "The Tree of KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil". Seems pretty clear after all.

What I find more interesting in the whole Genesis Story is the fact that it is actually God who lied to Adam and Eve while it was the Serpent who told them the truth. Once again made perfectly clear by simply reading the story...

The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

So they eat the fruit and what happens?? Well, they didn't die and in fact did become wise and God himself even said it himself in the quote further above when he said “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;. Basically God lied about the Tree to Adam and Eve, the Serpent actually told them the truth and God punishes everybody.

Sounds like a Perfectly Sane and Moral Religion to me....Where do I sign up???

Ya Right.....Thanx but No Thanx....

The "knowledge of good and evil" may represent the introduction of dualism into human thought. To "know good and evil" is to perceive a difference between the two, after first having identified them as separate and distinct. From this follows "you" and "I", the interpersonal (and illusory) dualism that could be argued is the root of all humanity's problems.

Does that make any sense? I'm not a Christian or a Jew, but I do "get" the Genesis story (when considered allegorically and not literally) in that something strange (i.e., "the fall of man") happened to us early in our development, and there is no way to escape the consequences of it in our society because our dualistic thinking is introduced to us and encouraged immediately after birth--our parents had no way to escape it either, therefore it's passed on to us.

From there follows the idea that a savior--someone or something untainted ("liberated" in Buddhism--had to throw that in here) by dualistic cognition--is necessary to guide humankind through all of this muck. So I guess to answer the OP's question, I tend to lean toward the Christian interpretation of The Fall in the Garden.

Something "bad" (see, dualism) happened and we can't escape the consequences of it without divine guidance, both in this life and the next. When we look at the catastrophic mess we've created for ourselves on this planet, it's hard to look at the "incident" in the Garden as a good thing.

But that's just me...

reply to post by Greatest I am


Why cant what happened in "Eden" be nothing more than the "Word" expressing himself (us making choices with little knowledge). We are kids living in an adult world whereas we have not the absolute knowledge alone. Eden... Bad choice maybe? This is life... its like a snowball effect when a choice is made. Good.. bad.. indifferent. The Apple could have been nothing more than a metaphor of knowledge (thus now..technology) that could actually lead to our demise.

Know-- Ledge has nothing to stand on. lol Life though, is where it's at.

reply to post by Greatest I am

Even in the quoted article, the serpent is described as introducing a "poison" into human life.
Judaism agrees that the event was not a good thing.
The real difference between Judaism and Christianity is whether the antidote to the "poison" is to be found through obedience to the Law or through faith in Christ.
If you think that Christianity got it wrong, you will, of course, be wanting to submit yourself to the Jewish Law instead.

In my own thread on the fall (q.v.) I come up with a speculative alternative which might be called "indirect rise";

...or should the development of our conscious will be seen as a stage in our progress towards a future state in which our conscious decision-making has been re-aligned with God’s will? (Another version of the FELIX CULPA idea).

From "The Tree of what knowledge?"

reply to post by Greatest I am


Neither,

"We did not rise,
We did not fall.
There was no Garden,
there at all.

God by reason of his own,
dictates the world
from his throne.

There was no serpent
sly and wise.
There was no fall,
there was no rise."

"Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?"

Well we managed to get ourselves tossed out the party just because we got caught fraternizing with a reptile so I have to go with fallen rather than elevation. LoL

sk0rpi0n
The bible teaches that Adam and Eves offspring would live in enmity. That implies that the events in the garden led to negative consequences for the children who had nothing to do with the fall at Eden. However, the Bible leaves out an important part of the story,which is covered in the Koran.... God had declared to Satan even before the fall that he would punish those who follow Satan...AND also that God would forgive those who turn to Him in repentance. So its not all black and white. Humans are NOT born tainted with original sin. Instead, humans are born with the potential to do both good and evil. And a humans ultimate destiny is shaped by what he chooses to make his nature.

Of course we live in enmity. All creature who evolve must compete with each other when we cannot use our default position of cooperation which enhances our possibility of survival. So far yours is straight science.

I will ask you a question then post another in an old O P of mine. You will note that I know it is not black and white.

You say that God talked to Satan before the fall. What did he say and explain please why God put Satan in Eden with the power to deceive Eve?

That was definitely a set up.

==============

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.

www.youtube.com...

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

www.youtube.com...

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL

Bassago
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Normally I avoid these kinds of threads like the proverbial biblical plague (please excuse the pun.) However leaving out whether the book portrays real events and any other religiosity let's take a look.

The Bible seems to favor the Jewish view.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Assuming (we know what that does) that a god would be infinitely superior to humans ethically, morally and by any other measure I would think he / she, whatever, would not want to put an innocent to death because their father did something bad.

That said, I would side with the jewish interpretation as being correct. Anyway, they wrote the thing so I'd expect them to know what it meant.

I agree.

Two remarks. King David baby was tortured by God for 6 days before finally killing it because he was angry with David. Add the death of the first born of Egypt and you see God doing the opposite of your "I would think he / she, whatever, would not want to put an innocent to death because their father did something bad." .

My second is to your "a god would be infinitely superior to humans ethically, morally".
They have become as Gods knowing good and evil says that our moral sense is equal to God's.

If you reads the bible , you will in fact note, if you are not a Christian with a bias, that God is a prick according to the lowest human standards of morality.

Regards
DL

BardingTheBard
Childishness falls away and elevates into maturity.

Avoiding falling creates perpetual childishness.

One who has never fallen has never learned to stand and walk... always needing to be carried.

edit on 30-11-2013 by BardingTheBard because: (no reason given)

I partially agree but in this case, it is God, by putting Satan right there with Eve, who, does not let A & E fall, --- but actively trips them. Not what a good parent would do. Right?

Experience is a good teacher for sure but not all negative things need to be experienced to be learned. To think so and to use it to justify God murdering A & E by the neglect of keeping them from what would keep them alive is a sign of poor morals. You might want to think on that if you think only moral people will get to heaven.

Otherwise, this is you.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

jude11
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Who was correct, Jews or Christians?

um...Neither.

Both are guilty of mass slaughter of non-believers of their stories so how can one be more right than the other?

Peace

edit on 30-11-2013 by jude11 because: (no reason given)

One used the story to discriminate against women for all of these years while the other did not but let's not let those details stop you from not opining. It is good to leave the present impressions out there. Not.

Regards
DL

DISRAELI
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Even in the quoted article, the serpent is described as introducing a "poison" into human life.
Judaism agrees that the event was not a good thing.
The real difference between Judaism and Christianity is whether the antidote to the "poison" is to be found through obedience to the Law or through faith in Christ.
If you think that Christianity got it wrong, you will, of course, be wanting to submit yourself to the Jewish Law instead.

In my own thread on the fall (q.v.) I come up with a speculative alternative which might be called "indirect rise";

...or should the development of our conscious will be seen as a stage in our progress towards a future state in which our conscious decision-making has been re-aligned with God’s will? (Another version of the FELIX CULPA idea).

From "The Tree of what knowledge?"

edit on 1-12-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

This is about right. The OP is reaching interpreting the story of the garden of Eden. I'll have to check out your thread. Your theory sounds a lot like Christianity lol....

mOjOm

Greatest I am
Who was correct, Jews or Christians?

Obviously the Jews were correct. But it is their myth, written by them and for them so logically it makes sense that they would know what it says. Although it shouldn't really be that hard for others to understand it either since it's written pretty clearly. Let's look at how clearly it is written shall we...?

In short God left the Garden for a bit, Adam and Eve ate from the tree and then....

Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

Well, there ya go. Eating the fruit gave them knowledge. Just like the name would suggest, "The Tree of KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil". Seems pretty clear after all.

What I find more interesting in the whole Genesis Story is the fact that it is actually God who lied to Adam and Eve while it was the Serpent who told them the truth. Once again made perfectly clear by simply reading the story...

The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

So they eat the fruit and what happens?? Well, they didn't die and in fact did become wise and God himself even said it himself in the quote further above when he said “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;. Basically God lied about the Tree to Adam and Eve, the Serpent actually told them the truth and God punishes everybody.

Sounds like a Perfectly Sane and Moral Religion to me....Where do I sign up???

Ya Right.....Thanx but No Thanx....

Always good to see someone who can read with honest unbiased eyes.

Regards
DL

NthOther
The "knowledge of good and evil" may represent the introduction of dualism into human thought. To "know good and evil" is to perceive a difference between the two, after first having identified them as separate and distinct. From this follows "you" and "I", the interpersonal (and illusory) dualism that could be argued is the root of all humanity's problems.

Does that make any sense? I'm not a Christian or a Jew, but I do "get" the Genesis story (when considered allegorically and not literally) in that something strange (i.e., "the fall of man") happened to us early in our development, and there is no way to escape the consequences of it in our society because our dualistic thinking is introduced to us and encouraged immediately after birth--our parents had no way to escape it either, therefore it's passed on to us.

From there follows the idea that a savior--someone or something untainted ("liberated" in Buddhism--had to throw that in here) by dualistic cognition--is necessary to guide humankind through all of this muck. So I guess to answer the OP's question, I tend to lean toward the Christian interpretation of The Fall in the Garden.

Something "bad" (see, dualism) happened and we can't escape the consequences of it without divine guidance, both in this life and the next. When we look at the catastrophic mess we've created for ourselves on this planet, it's hard to look at the "incident" in the Garden as a good thing.

But that's just me...

You should get out more my friend.

You see a catastrophic mess where I see that the markers for evil that I track are the best they have ever been. Poverty, death by all violent means including war are all at the lowest they have ever been.

www.youtube.com...

Look again for the first time my friend.

Regards
DL

NthOther
The "knowledge of good and evil" may represent the introduction of dualism into human thought. To "know good and evil" is to perceive a difference between the two, after first having identified them as separate and distinct. From this follows "you" and "I", the interpersonal (and illusory) dualism that could be argued is the root of all humanity's problems.

I wanted to give two comment here.

One. Let's look at the dualism of love and hate. If we were to all love each other the way the rhetoric asks us to do then the hate would vanish out of the dualism and then so would the love as we would not have anything to compare it to. That means also, if we all love each other, that no one would be special to us ands we would then not know how to love deeply as we should for those special to us.

Two. Have a look at a world without the duality of good and evil and pleas opine as to how you would like to live in such a situation. Especially if you are the girl at about the 1.5 mark.

www.dailymotion.com...

Regards
DL

MamaJ
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Why cant what happened in "Eden" be nothing more than the "Word" expressing himself (us making choices with little knowledge). We are kids living in an adult world whereas we have not the absolute knowledge alone. Eden... Bad choice maybe? This is life... its like a snowball effect when a choice is made. Good.. bad.. indifferent. The Apple could have been nothing more than a metaphor of knowledge (thus now..technology) that could actually lead to our demise.

Know-- Ledge has nothing to stand on. lol Life though, is where it's at.

How dumbed down do you think we should keep ourselves?

Sciences feed on each other for growth and advancement. Look at how evolution has helped us combat disease. Shall we end seeking medical knowledge?

Should we have killed Einstein before his knowledge would build the atomic bomb?

Remember that although horrible when we used it, that same knowledge has helped medicine save way more lives than it ever took.

How dumb do you want your children to be?

Regards
DL