Noah

randyvs
reply to post by Akragon

 

Stars do not light the earth what so ever...

Tell that to some one who navigates by the stars and I quote;

"A true skipper needs no compass, he navigates by the stars".

McArthur

edit on Rpm32114v342014u59 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

Honestly I can't even believe we the people in this thread are having this conversation...

The whole story is filled with impossibility... And saying "well God did it" doesn't change the facts

Theres not a shred of evidence that there was ever a global flood... OR that noah or the ark even existed

This is akin to arguing with a five year old, on whether or not old mother hubbard lived in a shoe

reply to post by Rex282


You just laid down a good argument for agnosticism, which is what I am.

This just one small example of what is called the Old Testament isn't just meaningless ripped off "myth"
The fact is the stories themselves are not what is the main "fact".The Hebrews( the Israelites then Jews) DID write them.The math evidence to support that is strong in evidence.That does NOT mean all the stories in them are "literal" truths of history.In others words it doe not mean the universe was created approximately 6,000 years ago…and also the fact is the OT does not "state" it was.That is one of the billions of agenda extrapolations from them…however my point is the "stories" are secondary.They are in a sense a "delivery" system through"words.The Hebrews were one of the first (if not the first) to try to chronicle their history (in a nutshell) THROUGH written words.Most history is oral passed from generation to generation….and most likely VERY accurately.There would be very little way to alter it since there would be a multitude that were told it still alive as it was being passed on.

In the modern age it would be gibberish like the kid game telephone talk.Most people can barely juggle two coherent thoughts in their mind.The ancient type of memory is virtually unheard of today.History can be propagandized to have so many conflicting stories as to cause more confusion.Most people have it wrong.The ancients ability to accurately communicate historical facts is much higher than modern.Again that doesn't make it known fact just much more plausible.
I'm not going to get into the story of Noah because it is too volatile and is key to knowing if the OT writings have meaning or are just myth that can be completely discarded as having any truth in it.I'm only going to concentrate on the Truth of the "meaning" of what was written.AS I said the "words" and story are secondary and only the delivery system.

The fact is all of the OT scriptures are not first and foremost words but are numbers.After the OT was written (last book about 400 BCE) the Hebrew language developed what is called gematria(no they were not the originators).That is where every letter is also a number.All of those words are actually numbers in an equation(or more accurately many equations).The vast majority cannot be known what their meaning is however some can because they are very very clear that they are an equation (with a lot of geometry thrown in) with extreme plausibility.

The most significant words are names.Names are the essence of EVERYTHING.They are the "nature and character" of the thing named.That is why so much emphasis is put on them.Not that they have "mystical" powers.Saying the name "Jesus" has no power at all.The most significant name of all of the scriptures is the name of "God".The word God is not a name…it is a title extrapolation from the "real" names of God which are infinite because that is "Gods" nature…infinite….When Moses asked God his name that was the scriptures way of "referencing" how significant this"naming" is.The creator God said his name was…..which the closest literal translation is "I will be what I will be".This was turned into the Tetragrammaton(which means 4 letter word) YHWH(transliteration into english letters) sometimes called the "I Am".

This "name" was so significant to the Israelites that it was the death penalty to even say it.(that was their rule not the creator God).The naming in the scripture started with Adam which comes from adamah which means red clay or soil.In Greek it is anthropos which is mankind.Whether "Adam" is the 1st "hu-man" is inconsequential.There is no sense debating the "truth" about Adam not being or being the first "Human" that is secondary information.So after Adam was blah blah blah until Noah..then Noah did his thing then Abram who was renamed Abraham which means the father of many nations.Abraham had a son named Isaac. Later Isaac has two sons(twins) Jacob and Esau. Jacob(who become Israel which means struggles with Yahweh) has 12 sons which are the 12 sons of Israel.

contd...

reply to post by Rex282

It is IMPOSSIBLE to prove these statement as fact.It is an extrapolation assumption at best.You are doing the same thing Randy is doing..forming an opinion from your agenda.

I just do it with far less flash.

That is where the significance of names "meanings" as "signs" of the TRUTH of math starts.Through gematria each of the sons)patriarchs) has a number.Remember their names were not rendered according to gematria since they were born almost 2,000 years earlier.These names were so significant the priest of Israel wore a "vest" (called an ephod)with 12 stones on it each representing a son of Israel.They were in the order of the birth.From the priests POV from the top left to bottom right here are the names and order.
3-2-1
6-5-4
9-8-7
12-11-10

Judah,Simeon,Reuben
Gad,Naphtali,Dan
Zebulun,Issachar,Asher
Ephraim,Manasseh,Benjamin

There are 2 modifications to the original son list.Levi was the 3rd born.His tribe became the priest tribe(moses and Aaron were of) so his stone was not placed on the priest vest.Joseph was the 11th born and gave his birthright to his 2 sons Manasseh and Ephraim.So Levi and Joseph are replaced by Manasseh and Ephraim.

Heres is the math.The 4th(bottom) row of names is
Ephraim+Mannaseh+Benjamin=names 12-11-10
331+395+162=888

The 3rd row of names plus "1" on the 2nd row is:
Zebulun+Issachar+Asher+Dan=names 7-8-9-4
95+830+501+54=1480

The remaining names are:
3-2-1
6-5
Judah-+Simeon+Reuben
Gad+Naphtali
30+466+259+7+570=1332

Those are significant and clearly stated numbers.All 12 sum=3700
which is a multiple of the significant number 37(37x1,000)

All three of the group of names numbers are also multiple of 37
888=37x24
1480=37x40
1332=37x36

The even number names=1850
The odd numbered names=1850
1850+1850=3700

The odds of these coincidental names and numbers and order are astronomical,

FlyersFan

You completely dismissed the facts .. the math ... 3 pair of related reproducing humans could NOT take us to the population we have today. And they certainly couldnt' take the planet to the population 115 years later of the Tower of Babel myth. Get off the personal stuff and address those facts. Facts that prove Noahs Ark did not happen.

You are an interesting mind.

I mentioned at least 3 times in the last 4 pages my opinion was that mutation in DNA occurred after the flood which produce genetic variation very quickly. I already showed the numbers of population increase with a 10% growth rate over 115 years.

An opinion is an opinion, of course only living back then and seeing it occur, would qualify as the "facts" you are asking for in vanity.

ElohimJD
I already showed the numbers of population increase with a 10% growth rate over 115 years.

I already showed the numbers couldn't be that.
3 pair of related humans and their prodigy can't make 500,000 people in a hundred years.
Not now. And certainly not back then with the high death rates.

on that note.....

On top of that is the 1st verse of scripture of Genesis 1:1 is chocked full of math that could fill a book!This is just the tip.Here is Genesis 1:1 in math.

in the beginning-Elohim-created- the heavens- and the earth.

Those "seven" words when added =2701which is the 73 triangular number and is 37x73(notice they are mirror numbers).The geometry of these numbers is head spinning. The odds of them coalescing in a combination of 7 words is absurdity(which is a mathematical impossibility because the number is so large).Here is a very simple math equation.

Genesis 1:1 word/numbers have 24 multiples of 37 (that is estimated at a googolplex possibility a number so large it can never be completely written).Notice #1(296) + #6(888) +#9(1184)=2368..Jesus christ,Iesous christos,Yahoshua mashiach


296 = 37 × 8=296
407 = 37 × 11=407
86 + 395 = 37 × 13=481
407 + 296 = 37 × 19=703
86 + 395 + 296 = 37 × 21=785
86 + 395 + 407 = 37 × 24=888
913 + 86 = 37 × 27=999
203 + 401 + 395 = 37 × 27=999
86 + 395 + 407 + 296 = 37 × 32=1184
203 + 401 + 395 + 296 = 37 × 35=1295
913 + 86 + 296 = 37 × 35=1295
913 + 86 + 407 = 37 × 38=1396
203 + 401 + 395 + 407 = 37 × 38=1396
913 + 203 + 401 = 37 × 41=1433
913 + 86 + 407 + 296 = 37 × 46=1702
203 + 401 + 395 + 407 + 296 = 37 × 46=1702
913 + 203 + 401 + 296 = 37 × 49=1813
913 + 203 + 401 + 407 = 37 × 52=1924
913 + 203 + 86 + 401 + 395 = 37 × 54=1998
913 + 203 + 401 + 407 + 296 = 37 × 60=2220
913 + 203 + 86 + 401 + 395 + 296 = 37 × 62=2294
913 + 203 + 86 + 401 + 395 + 407 = 37 × 65=2405
913 + 203 + 86 + 401 + 395 + 407 + 296 = 37 × 73=2701
--------------------------

These math truths are very plausible pieces of evidence the creator God had a part in the writing of the words of the scriptures.The fact is it is math first words/language second.The implausibility of some of the events have no bearing on the truth of the perfect math that is the REAL words.The fact is NONE of this has to be believed to be true.It can only be known and the creator God "sows" the truth in every thing they do it is impossible for them to do anything but.

When Yahoshua said I Am the Way the truth and the Life this was the implication.When he said not one iota(in Greek that is the letter that equals 10 in gematria) will pass from the Law and the Prophets he meant the perfect math equation.That is what he came to fulfill(sum).The math evidence of that is what was already written in the names of the patriarchs and in Genesis:1...and ALL the scriptures.There is no reason to have to "know" all of the equation.It is unknowable as a whole which is just like the creator God.He does reveal himself in the Son(888 1480=2368).Those numbers and it sums in the equation are simple and infinitely profound in their function.

Are the scriptures "words" the word of God...no...the number "words" are.The numbers "signify(as was told John in Revelation 1:1).That is the word of the LIVING God.Word /words are dead.They have no life they only cause death they are confusion..babel...math is the the only True language of reality.. and math is infinite in nature just as the creator God is.Those numbers ALL add up.

ElohimJD

Akragon

Stars do not light the earth what so ever...

Have you ever been camping on a very star filled sky? Theres NO light...

Again you're reaching for anything to show you're correct... borderline insanity actually

Though I freely admit your "moon arrival" idea is one of the funniest things I've ever heard... And of course you do know without the moon there is no tides... and no life

The words in Hebrew are the words in Hebrew regardless of your agreement with them.

I have aid at least a dozen times, this was my opinion and I never expected it to be thought of as correct from another mind, my thoughts do not need to be yours, and they were never intended to be so.

God created life, not the tides of the moon.

See this is the issue of the whole thing... when adults believe fairy tales the world gets a little crazyier

Sure God created life... I am a creationist so to speak, just not a biblical creationist... God and evolution are completely compatible

Just because the words are in Hebrew doesn't change the fact that stars do not light the earth... Genesis was obviously talking about the sun and the moon. For millennia everyone believed Genesis was talking about the earth and the moon...

Then in 2014 you came along and present the idea that the moon suddenly arrived on the scene... before which there was no moon

Do you realise how ludicrous that sounds?

And by the way, your bible says God created EVERYTHING... which would include the tides, the moon... and everything else.

How is it possible that people can be so completely indoctrinated that they are willing to believe anything to show that this book is correct... including making up ridiculous stories like this one...

You sir... have blown my mind

*bashes face on the keyboard*

reply to post by randyvs

An opinion is an opinion,

And mine differs from the pseudo Christianity that Fly seems all to familiar with.
and therefore according to her I'm wrong.

BS in a big way.

randyvs
reply to post by Grimpachi

 

Very true Grim, I do care more about God than evidence. Well said,
from both sides actually, whether or not you realise it.

Well your honest about it and I like that. I do not try to debate evidence against faith because faith is firm belief in something for which there is no proof. There is absolutely nowhere to go like that. There are some people out there whose faith is so unwavering that if they found a verse in their "sacred texts" that said 2+2=7 they wouldn't question it instead they would do their best to rationalize and defend that position. To them I just say "mkay" and I generally move along unless I am bored.

reply to post by Akragon

The whole story is filled with impossibility.

Do you expect me to apologize for God my brother?
Best I can do is to say I'm personally sorry, but that's God.

randyvs
And mine differs from the pseudo Christianity that Fly seems all to familiar with.

See .. that's the problem with extremist religious fundamentalists. They think their version of belief in God is the only one that is accurate. This christian extremism is no different from the muslim extremists who think they are right because their book says 'god said so'. Both are wrong.

Belief in God is not predicated on belief in Old Testament myths.
Belief that Jesus is the messiah and savior of mankind is not predicated on belief in Old Testament myths.

Sad sad sad that some actually believe that it is.

reply to post by FlyersFan

that's the problem

You still don't get it. Once again, that's your problem.
I'm not in a thread you created saying you're wrong.

reply to post by randyvs


Address the fact that there are 80,000 year old trees living in the desert south west of the USA.
Address the fact that there are 100,000 year old coral reefs, undisturbed, living in the ocean.
Address the fact that the population numbers are too high for humans to have come from Noahs ark.

Man up. Address those facts.

reply to post by FlyersFan


why? You can't pile up a mountain of facts against God.
You facts your lies your puny knowledge are no measure against what he says.
Whether you believe what he says or not.

randyvs
why? You can't pile up a mountain of facts against God.

If God really was involved with Noahs Ark ... he'll survive the facts.

Address the fact that there are 80,000 year old trees living in the desert south west of the USA.
Address the fact that there are 100,000 year old coral reefs, undisturbed, living in the ocean.
Address the fact that the population numbers are too high for humans to have come from Noahs ark.

Man up. Address those facts.

reply to post by FlyersFan

God really was involved with Noahs Ark ... he'll survive the facts.

Exactly.
and I would rather believe the entire Bible then go cherry picking.

randyvs
reply to post by Akragon

 

The whole story is filled with impossibility.

Do you expect me to apologize for God my brother?
Best I can do is to say I'm personally sorry, but that's God.

No my friend I don't expect anything... You believe whatever makes you happy

My girlfriend believes the same thing... and it doesn't matter what proof I show, or what contradictions exist... She holds firm to these beliefs... in a way I respect the conviction

Though I can not just sit here and read these things without adding my own 2 cents...

That being said... What does this belief benefit you?

Does it reaffirm the God of the bible exists to you, because without actual proof of that you're literally believing fantasy.

Many people over the years have asked me why I believe in God...

My answer to all of them is... I don't just believe in God, I know hes there... but where is MY proof?

My proof is in the profound affect the words of Gods son has had on my life...

So what does this belief In a global flood, and Noahs ark benefit you?

The facts about this story are completely impossible...

The ark couldn't have held 2 of every creature...

The construction of the ark has also been proven NOT sea worthy, and likely wouldn't have even floated, let alone been able to withstand 40 days and nights of storm weather and waves which were likely several IF not hundreds of feet high.

Ken ham believes that the carnivores were Vegetarians at the time of Noah... Do you believe that as well?

OF course without them being vegetarians there would have been a slaughter on the ark when these animals got hungry... but wait maybe God made them tranquil just for the ride.

Seriously man... I respect your convictions... but these stories are thousands of years old, and they're not even original

How.... why why do you believe them?

I will never understand im afraid