A Question to the Scot's Here on ATS? ....

DrunkYogi
reply to post by Soloprotocol

 

Your so naive it's unbelievable. I bet your a kilt swinger and bagpipe blower.

If anyone is naive its you. And yes he may very well be a "kilt swinger and bagpipe blower" but so am i...and i would love to know why the derogatory comments have to come into it? Or is it because of your armchair general mentality? Or possibly because your English and think of yourself as "above all others" (most likely).

I'll tell you what - I'd rather be a "kilt swinger and bagpipe blower" than a national of any other nation! This country and these people are the nicest there are, with one of the most vibrant and proud histories this world has seen. Not to mention the benefits this country has given the world, even for its small population size

reply to post by auroraaus


So the Stewart lineage....who would be king/queen figurehead if Scots decided to dump the house of Windsor?
That is one thing that sets Scotland apart from other commonwealth countries that have seceded surely?
Just curious....has Scotland still got it's own royal lineage somewhere out there?

Rainbows
Jane

Well a debate on the White paper is going ahead today and being held in Holyrood. This will be interesting, and I think it will be objective.

Johann Lamont suggested the document's projections were "not credible".

What we seem to be getting from the Scottish government now is that we will cut taxes and at the same time we'll improve services - that's not credible.

On the key issues – what money will we use, who will be watching our back in financial storms or our
security in an uncertain world, the answers rang hollow, even if they were confidently delivered.

But this White Paper was not allowed to state publicly what SNP Finance Secretary John Swinney has already admitted in private. Independence comes with costs as well as benefits.

Instead, this is a wishlist for the future – cheaper taxes, better paid jobs, free childcare and great benefits and pensions for all.

But there was no price tag – no costings, no indication of where the money for all this would come.

And money inevitably brings us back to the big question - currency.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk...

angelchemuel
I am pretty certain that when Salmond 'came out of retirement' for this, it was made very clear that once the referendum has taken place Salmond 'retires' from politics again. I will dig around and see if I can find it.

Also, the only problem I have is that Salmond is the figure head for the 'yes' campaign. I explained why in my last post above.

Out of curiosity I would like to know where Kennedy stands on this.

As to the EU....well lets face it, at the moment it is a rather moot topic. I think that is a bit like 'putting the cart before the horse'. If the 'yes' vote wins and I sincerely hope they do, we then have to see if the remainder of the UK gets the vote as promised (haha) to stay or leave the EU. IF we do get that vote, and IF we do vote to leave, I don't think Scotland will bother to 're-apply'. HOWEVER I do think that the EU is an important part of whether Scotland win the 'yes' vote, as I think possibly most Scots will want to leave and that is the sting in the tail for the yes vote to win.

Rainbows
Jane

My concern is that if we vote and its a No, Westminster will disband the Scottish Parliament (which they can do at anytime) to prevent another vote in the future.

As regards the EU. I see arguments to stay and leave. Neither of which fuss me hugely at the moment!

angelchemuel
reply to post by auroraaus

 

So the Stewart lineage....who would be king/queen figurehead if Scots decided to dump the house of Windsor?
That is one thing that sets Scotland apart from other commonwealth countries that have seceded surely?
Just curious....has Scotland still got it's own royal lineage somewhere out there?

Rainbows
Jane

Yes they do and it has been proven many times before that the lineage that's on the seat at the moment is not the lineage that should be there. There are a few families who would have a claim to it if it ever came to that but i don't think it ever would.

angelchemuel
reply to post by auroraaus

 

So the Stewart lineage....who would be king/queen figurehead if Scots decided to dump the house of Windsor?
That is one thing that sets Scotland apart from other commonwealth countries that have seceded surely?
Just curious....has Scotland still got it's own royal lineage somewhere out there?

Rainbows
Jane

It's mostly a Catholic, Protestant thing Angel. The Stewart's where for the Pope. William Wallace (Braveheart) was fighting for the Pope also to have dominion over Scotland. That's why Mel Gibson made his propaganda film making Wallace into a hero. Gibson is a profound Catholic. Look also at the film V for Vendetta, Guy Fawkes was a Jesuit trying to blow up a Protestant Parliment on behalf of.........The Pope. This guy just get's everywhere. In the film they eventually succeed and all of the sheeple think it is a good thing. Everybody is missing the point.

reply to post by jrmcleod



Scotland and England may be a 'geographical' area but running two separate

economies side by side on the same currency (is like comparing apples with oranges)

That is what happened with the euro ... different economies with the same currency.


The Deputy Prime minister, John Prescott of the last labour government did

indeed give the N.E.England a vote for devolution and the people's overwhelming

voted (78%) against devolution .... ?


I think you're WRONG and naïve to think that this is more about Scotland than about

Alex Salmond .........This is an Alex Salmond ego trip ..............

reply to post by jrmcleod

This isn't about Alex Salmond, this is about Scotland.....

Agreed so far.

.....and his vision is shared by at least half of the population,

It's not Alex Salmond's vision it's SNP's vision and countless opinion polls suggest that nowhere near 'at least half' agree with it.

.....and possibly many more who just don't know it yet.

We'll see, that's exactly what this referendum will tell us.

I will also guarantee that if the North of England had the opportunity to break-away, they would.

I can absolutely guarantee that you are wrong on that.
Yes, there is considerable sympathy with the Scots in Northern England.
Yes, we probably have more in common with Scotland than we do other parts of the UK and England.
But we are English and we are British.
We recognise that we are marginalised, alienated and if Scotland votes for independence we will be increasingly isolated.
But we will continue to fight and try to change our country and this Union into something we can be proud of.

In 2004 we in North East England had a referendum on devolved power to a North Eastern Assembly - it was rejected outright with nearly 78% of voters being against it.
I've got to say it was a farcical affair with very little publicity and public debate. Very little exposure was given to it on MSM and what little was given was heavily weighed in favour of the No vote. It was a really biased and one-sided exercise.

The overall impressions I got from it were of appalling apathy with only a 49% turnout - apathy is something I doubt the Scots will ever be accused of - and the manipulative nature of MSM who actively played upon differences within the region itself - Tyne / Tees / Wear rivalry - and the promotion of the belief that it would only increase bureaucracy.
I suspect that if held today with an open, honest and genuinely public and balanced debate then the vote would be much closer, possibly even in favour of it.
But the fact remains the North East voted against devolved power and it's therefore reasonable to assume that it wouldn't opt to join Scotland as an independent entity outside of the UK.

And bear in mind I'm speaking as someone who was, and still is, heavily in favour of devolved power to all the regions.

I was wondering when this would turn into a Irish/Catholic/Protestant train wreck...it only took to page 8 or so....leave it out please.

eletheia
reply to post by jrmcleod

 

Scotland and England may be a 'geographical' area but running two separate

economies side by side on the same currency (is like comparing apples with oranges)

That is what happened with the euro ... different economies with the same currency.


The Deputy Prime minister, John Prescott of the last labour government did

indeed give the N.E.England a vote for devolution and the people's overwhelming

voted (78%) against devolution .... ?


I think you're WRONG and naïve to think that this is more about Scotland than about

Alex Salmond .........This is an Alex Salmond ego trip ..............

Its funny how France, Germany and the eastern countries of Europe all have different economies but share the same currency - and are fine!

I don't think its ideal that Scotland should use the pound...i would rather we used our own currency but it can work and it does work.

reply to post by Freeborn


And this is my point exactly. A referendum on devolved power was given to you but there was little attention given to it. No answers on key questions, no publicity, no debate, very little of anything and the No vote won. If this was the case today in the North of England and you had all the debates, publications, media coverage that Scotland is getting you may very well find that you would vote Yes to it.

The same logic applies in Scotland. The more the critical answers are answered and the more people see the fear mongering by the Better Together campaign, the more likely a Yes vote.

I cannot say 100% that a yes vote will happen but i am pretty sure it will. I believe many people at the time of voting will vote Yes as a last minute choice and that will swing it.

I am though concerned of the repercussions of a No or Yes vote.

Those that vote No if a Yes goes through will not be happy and will probably revolt, likewise and probably more likely if its a No majority, the Yes voters will be even more disgruntled at the lost opportunity and again there will be fallout from it.

Especially if it is the difference of 1-2%

Catholic - Protestant. It's all bollocks and its only purpose is to divide.
It's been the bane of Ireland and it could well be Scotland's downfall if they allow it to be.

The English can be accused of a lot of things but I've got to say that when it comes to this they are so far ahead.

Oh, and for the record, I'm an Englishman of Irish ancestry who was raised a Catholic has visited Scotland on countless occasions and have numerous Scottish friends and acquaintances of all beliefs, following, opinion, shapes and sizes!

interesting responses coming through from the politicians.

Scottish Conservative deputy leader Jackson

Never before has so much been asserted on the back of so little evidence nor so little said in so many words

Mark Wallace

All this talk of a separate Scottish security service. Please, please, please could they call it M.I.Fife?

Scottish Labour deputy leader Anas Sarwar

The White Paper promises huge tax cuts – a 3% cut in corporation tax and the scrapping of Air Passenger Duty – while promising huge increases in public spending. It promises Scotland we would have Scandinavian public services, but the tax system of Monaco. That’s not honest and not credible.

Nicola Sturgeon

The total cost of the public information will be £450,000. A final figure for the printing of the document itself will not be available until we know what the final demand for hard copies turns out to be.

Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont

We have been presented with 670 pages of assertion and uncertainty. Still no guarantee on the currency, the much vaunted legal opinion on our EU membership noticeable by its absence, and the headline offer - another promise on child care which the Scottish Government could deliver now but refuses to do so. Children denied the chance of proper care until their parents vote the way the SNP want them to. How cynical is that?

Beyond today’s circus, the fundamental questions remain unanswered. Still the Deputy First Minister cannot guarantee Scots what currency they would have for their wages, their mortgages, their pensions and their savings. And she says that if Scotland isn't allowed to keep the pound we will default on our debts. The SNP are asking for a divorce but want to keep the joint bank account – and Plan B is to do a runner.

Freeborn
Catholic - Protestant. It's all bollocks and its only purpose is to divide.
It's been the bane of Ireland and it could well be Scotland's downfall if they allow it to be.

The English can be accused of a lot of things but I've got to say that when it comes to this they are so far ahead.

Oh, and for the record, I'm an Englishman of Irish ancestry who was raised a Catholic has visited Scotland on countless occasions and have numerous Scottish friends and acquaintances of all beliefs, following, opinion, shapes and sizes!

It's not even about religion, it's about two football teams and this is where it gets ludicrous.. seriously...
if you asked an equal amount of supporters from both sides which side they would fight on if they were in Star wars..one half would be for the Empire and the other half would be for the Rebel Alliance...

I'll leave it up to you who would be wearing the White Storm trooper get up and who would be wearing the Khaki hessian jammies.

reply to post by jrmcleod


Honestly, it's hard to describe just how farcical an affair the N.E. Assembly referendum was.
I am firmly of the opinion that it was deliberately manipulated and downplayed to ensure the outcome that was achieved.

The North East may indeed vote for devolved power if a genuinely open and honest debate was conducted, especially considering the current climate - the conspiracy theorist in me wonders if TPTB knew what was in store and negated the possibility in advance.
But I assure you, it's highly unlikely the N.E. would ever vote for independence, they consider themselves as English and as British as anyone else.

As for the fallout after the Scottish vote - I'm sure there'll be some ill feeling around regardless of the outcome.
It's obviously a passionate subject which evokes strong feelings and emotions in many. Hopefully common sense will prevail, (a misnomer if ever there was one, if only sense was common).

I wonder how many of the approximately 800,000 Scots currently living in England will choose to move back to an independent Scotland? - especially considering they've been denied a vote on the matter.

Soloprotocol

Freeborn
Catholic - Protestant. It's all bollocks and its only purpose is to divide.
It's been the bane of Ireland and it could well be Scotland's downfall if they allow it to be.

The English can be accused of a lot of things but I've got to say that when it comes to this they are so far ahead.

Oh, and for the record, I'm an Englishman of Irish ancestry who was raised a Catholic has visited Scotland on countless occasions and have numerous Scottish friends and acquaintances of all beliefs, following, opinion, shapes and sizes!

It's not even about religion, it's about two football teams and this is where it gets ludicrous.. seriously...
if you asked an equal amount of supporters from both sides which side they would fight on if they were in Star wars..one half would be for the Empire and the other half would be for the Rebel Alliance...

I'll leave it up to you who would be wearing the White Storm trooper get up and who would be wearing the Khaki hessian jammies.

Unfortunately there is an underlying religious element to all of this. It may not be pretty but it is a fact.

TechniXcality
reply to post by alldaylong

 

are seriously debating if conquest was ever sought in Scotland by the British? Sure eventually the people succumbed and joined the union, so i suppose America never conquered Iraq? Apples and oranges but the occupation led to a mock government put in place.

wikipedia en.wikipedia.org...

You need to educate yourself a bit better and you are a shining example of what is wrong with this debate, mainly it is clouded in myth and, for the most part, total garbage.

The majority of the Wars were as a result of Anglo-French Wars where the French were trying to conquer England and would enlist their friends up North to distract us with raids, invasions and wholesale sacking of towns. It was called the Auld Alliance. England would, more often than not, be the one being invaded - not the other way around. Scotland was used by the French (and other Catholic countries) to counter Protestant England and cause us trouble, so we would respond in kind.

As for the Wars of Independence, this was largely as a result of the Norman conquest and the subsequent introduction to England and Scotland of the feudal system. It was basically a bunch of related Nobles bitching and arguing over who would be King, which also involved the English King with his own claims. It is totally miss-representative of you to portray them as Wars of Conquest, which they weren't in the slightest.

Besides, the last actual pitched battle/war between England and Scotland happened in 1547 - after that, England and Scotland would be at peace pretty much forever more.

In the latter 16th century, a Scottish King rose to the throne of England (James VI of Scotland) and ruled both countries.

It wasn't until 1707 (some 150 years after the last War so your claims of Bankruptcy as a result of them are totally bogus) that the two countries were united as a result of Scotland bankrupting itself trying to start a Colony near Panama.

You have clearly been fed (and swallowed) a total load of BS regarding this topic.

And that is why there are so many English with opinions - not because we wish to deny the Scots a choice, but to make sure they get the truth.

reply to post by Soloprotocol

It's not even about religion, it's about two football teams and this is where it gets ludicrous.. seriously...

Believe it or not but I'm a Celtic fan, (one day I'll relate the story behind that), I've been to Parkhead on many an occasion including Auld Firm games and I know exactly how ridiculous, ludicrous and to an outsider how surreal it all is.
And there is no getting away from it there is definitely an element of religious bigotry involved - on both sides.

As a rule of thumb the English tend to view religion as very much a private matter and something not to be broadcast in public - overtly religious people are more often than not viewed as cranks and nut-jobs.
It is simply beyond comprehension that religion could be allowed to interfere with things as important as football and politics.

jrmcleod Not to mention the benefits this country has given the world, even for its small population size

...............as a result of being in the Union....

It is debatable that Scotland would have had any impact on the World had they not joined the Union in 1707. The Scottish did very well out of being in the UK and the subsequent Empire, which they were very involved in building and running. You guys did well though getting us English to take the rap for that though - whenever anyone thinks of the British Empire, they blame us English....

Don't get me wrong, I am all for you guys having the choice and don't wish to belittle you chaps in any way. I just don't share your tartan tinted view that you will actually choose independence.

I also object to the way Salmond appears to be cherry-picking the best bits of the Union and wanting to keep them, but throw away the rest. I'm sorry, but if you divorce your wife/husband, you don't get to keep using the house, the car or have free shagging rights every other Wednesday. It's all or nothing. He and his hag-mistress, that Sturgeon creature, have been peddling lie after lie (and called on it) yet that doesn't stop them.

reply to post by angelchemuel


There's a few Jacobite pretenders to this day... the current forerunner is I believe the Duke of Bavaria...