Is religion a mental disorder?

reply to post by charles1952


well I did say it was complicated and you seem to have a very polarised view of the situation –maybe a thought experiment might help

Suppose you are in a car accident – you make a full recovery but have lost all your memories, you go through rehabilitation ok and you can speak/read/write as well as you ever could but a day comes when the doctor decides to see if you want to find out about religion (remember you are starting afresh with no previous religions views)

Now at this point you are not any kind of theist so you must be a none-theist – right?

Your doctor arranges for a bunch of religious people to come and see you and you are presented with a line of people, a Buddhist/Jew/Muslim/Sikh/Hindu/Christian and so on

You walk down the line and each religious representative explains what his beliefs are and you can ether accept or reject any of the beliefs presented, if you get to the end of the line and haven’t accepted any of the stories you heard then you are still a none-theist- right?

The above is kind of my situation I wasn’t brought up in any religion and when I hear about jesus it sounds to me about as believable as the story of Thor might sound to you - if i don't believe any of the religious tales then i must be a none-theist

racasan
The above is kind of my situation I wasn’t brought up in any religion and when I hear about jesus it sounds to me about as believable as the story of Thor might sound to you - if i don't believe any of the religious tales then i must be a none-theist

Maybe you just haven't found and recognized the one you've been living by.

"Mythological images are the images by which the consciousness is put in touch with the unconscious. That’s what they are. When you don’t have your mythological images, or when your consciousness rejects them for some reason or other, you are out of touch with your own deepest part. I think that’s the purpose of a mythology that we can live by. We have to find the one that we are in fact living by and know what it is so that we can direct our craft with competence." -Joseph Campbell

Everyone has a personal mythology whether they recognize it as such or not, whether they deny it or not. Discovering the myth you live by can take a lifetime.

“Artistic symbols and myths speak out of the primordial, preconscious realm of the mind which is powerful and chaotic. Both symbol and myth are ways of bringing order and form into this chaos." -Rollo May

reply to post by racasan

Dear racasan,

I must applaud your efforts to be reasonable and thoughtful, thank you. Further, I agree with you that I have a very polarized view of the situation. I have four poles. Allow me to use your thought experiment to explain why, and what I think those poles are.

Your experiment is a good one, and I can follow it. Let's pick it up where you leave off. The patient says, "I choose not to accept any of your beliefs about God." The various representatives (putting aside their bickering over theological issues) respond as if with one voice, "OK, but do you at least accept that there is a God, who is the proper subject of religion?"

That's the point where I begin my polarization. The question of the existence of God seems to me to be the single most important question in the Universe. Faced with it, a man ought to say "If there is a God, I will devote my life to Him; if there isn't, I will expose this massive, cursed fraud." Those are two of my four poles.

A man might also say, "I've got to look into this question and eventually decide which path I'm going to follow." That's the third pole.

The fourth pole is typified by the (man?) who says "Well, it's complicated, I don't want commit to anything. Let sleeping dogs lie. I'll just take each situation as it arises and do what I think best." For me, this is a cop-out, a man shirking his duty. Each of the other three I can understand and accept, even though I might disagree, but the fourth pole contains those who are wandering lost, and perfectly happy to stay that way. Their lot is the saddest.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


No offence but not one of those people you named were not in the exact same situation we were. Unable to choose our parents or their beliefs they were simply taught whatever religion their parents subcribed to. That is not a glaring indictment of anything considering most of them were persecuted for the exact same beliefs they were extolled for at some point.
Sure there were some exceptions but for the most part the philosophical aspects of religion are the only parts of it that have any merit at all. The parts that don't inherently contradict themselves at least.
The kid groping.
The whole 10000 year old Earth thing.
Slave-like devotion without question or true self-introspection.
Refusal to accept the medical data on the underlying trauma of political and religious ideology.
Cherrypicking as to the nature of reality.
That stuff's all got ta go.
And (although not a problem for you) the ability to admit those problems exist.

-Peace-

reply to post by Eryiedes

All I will say about my research is I am sitting with a friend as he combs old and I new testaments with me for two hours an evening by hand. The work is slow and tedious and may take me a little while.

I've found it easier to use one of the hundreds of online Bible sites with search function, but do as you wish.

If you contend proof is no longer proof if it isn't exactly when you demand it, I can do nothing about that except assure you I am looking for the passage I refer to.

I assumed (I know, sigh) that you had some idea in mind when you made that charge against Christians. Although, I'm happy to hear you're going through the Bible page by page. Who knows . . .?

As for rational proofs....I'll take advanced physics over unicorns anyday.

Advanced physics will tell us that God doesn't exist? That is one science that can never prove God's non-existence. the reason is simple. Physics deals with physical objects and energies. If they can't measure something, they can say nothing about it. God does not exist as a physical object, no serious person has ever suggested that if you look through enough of space you'll find Him sitting with a beer and a TV set, on a Lazy-Boy recliner decorated to look like a throne.

And finally, No sir...
My arguement was on the effects of childhood/adult trauma being the source of the mental disorder that is religion. You've all tried to dance around the evidence and few tried to touch it let alone refute it. The rest of the things I am saying are simply observations based off that premise. I need no more proof of the insanity inherent after the medical data is taken into account.

I am dealing with your claim (or observation, or whatever,) that Christians believe they can murder without guilt, and that God can be proven not to exist.

But, to set your mind at ease, the claim that religion is a mental illness, as expressed in the OP's video and the first of your videos on Page 7, has already been dealt with at the top of Page 3. No answer has been forthcoming. But, please, don't let us be distracted into yet another line of inquiry. At least, not just yet.

I got a homeless guy that comes around and digs in the garbage for cans. He is mentally challenged, as he screams and yells as though someone is there. I talked to neighbor about it and apparently he does draw SS, but he gives it to the church and he doesn't even get room & board. He lives and sleeps on the streets. The neighbors talk to the church about it and they say with a clear conscience that they see it as a donation. He gives the church 750 dollars every month in return for nothing. It's common for payee's to take advantage of people. I once confronted a payee one time as this person was getting 1000 a month, but living off her boyfriend. Her boyfriend didn't even know she was even receiving monies for like 2 years. No rent, no food, nothing was coming out of the money it was just going into this unknown account or someones pocket. I went down there and yelled and threatened to turn them into the authority. This girl couldn't even draw out her own money for desperately needing food, a coat and some shoe's, a bus pass during winter when asked. Not only that she was pregnant. These are things that are needed and should be provided without question. I was ready to bring down thunder & lightning on these cons.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


atheism is a religion. Hence they can't be ill anymore than religious people.

reply to post by Eryiedes



Im afraid you haven't read or understood much in the way of quantum physics/quantum theory/quantum mechanics or theistic physics to really argue the "science says god doesnt exist" side. Im not a xtian, but if Im going to argue the existence of God and claim "science" is one of your sources for disbelief, you might want to acquaint yourself with it a little.


argh.. I better edit to add.. Im not trying to be "mean".. Im being serious.

BlueMule

Maybe you just haven't found and recognized the one you've been living by.

"Mythological images are the images by which the consciousness is put in touch with the unconscious. That’s what they are. When you don’t have your mythological images, or when your consciousness rejects them for some reason or other, you are out of touch with your own deepest part. I think that’s the purpose of a mythology that we can live by. We have to find the one that we are in fact living by and know what it is so that we can direct our craft with competence." -Joseph Campbell

Everyone has a personal mythology whether they recognize it as such or not, whether they deny it or not. Discovering the myth you live by can take a lifetime.

“Artistic symbols and myths speak out of the primordial, preconscious realm of the mind which is powerful and chaotic. Both symbol and myth are ways of bringing order and form into this chaos." -Rollo May

edit on 21-11-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

+1 for Joseph Campbell

If I understand what Campbell is saying here then the “Mythological images” don’t have to be Bronze Age gods – right?
Since I have enjoyed science fiction my whole life so then my personal mythological figures would have to be captain Kirk/Spock or the doctor (doctor who)

by Campbell‘s definition I guess I do have a religion - I’m a Whovian

www.urbandictionary.com...

awesome

charles1952
reply to post by racasan

 

Dear racasan,

I must applaud your efforts to be reasonable and thoughtful, thank you. Further, I agree with you that I have a very polarized view of the situation. I have four poles. Allow me to use your thought experiment to explain why, and what I think those poles are.

Your experiment is a good one, and I can follow it. Let's pick it up where you leave off. The patient says, "I choose not to accept any of your beliefs about God." The various representatives (putting aside their bickering over theological issues) respond as if with one voice, "OK, but do you at least accept that there is a God, who is the proper subject of religion?"

I was with you up to this point then

That's the point where I begin my polarization. The question of the existence of God seems to me to be the single most important question in the Universe. Faced with it, a man ought to say "If there is a God, I will devote my life to Him; if there isn't, I will expose this massive, cursed fraud." Those are two of my four poles.

A man might also say, "I've got to look into this question and eventually decide which path I'm going to follow." That's the third pole.

The fourth pole is typified by the (man?) who says "Well, it's complicated, I don't want commit to anything. Let sleeping dogs lie. I'll just take each situation as it arises and do what I think best." For me, this is a cop-out, a man shirking his duty. Each of the other three I can understand and accept, even though I might disagree, but the fourth pole contains those who are wandering lost, and perfectly happy to stay that way. Their lot is the saddest.

With respect,
Charles1952

You lost me
i assume that because you think religion is important you put much more weight into this than I would, my response might be more like:

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
― Marcus Aurelius,

th3dudeabides
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

atheism is a religion. Hence they can't be ill anymore than religious people.

Buy a dictionary.
Look up the definition of religion and then atheism.
Are they the same?
No?
So, is your statement false?
Absolutely.

Y'see what you SHOULD have said was:

"Atheists are people, hence they can be as flawed as anyone else."

Instead you made it about ideology and made a ridiculous statement because your religious feeling were hurt. Spurious statements made to make yourself feel better about god by attacking someone else.
How godly (and incorrect) of you.

-Peace-

Advantage
reply to post by Eryiedes

 

Im afraid you haven't read or understood much in the way of quantum physics/quantum theory/quantum mechanics or theistic physics to really argue the "science says god doesnt exist" side.

Sorry, but science has only theories on that.
Until such time as they are established as facts, they will remain theories.
All the wishful thinking in the world won't change that.
Tell me?
What does science have to say about people who live their lives based on theories which are not proven?
Oh yeah.
They're crazy.
Got it.

-Peace-

charles1952
I've found it easier to use one of the hundreds of online Bible sites with search function

Use one of the hundreds of online bible sources made, maintained and updated by religious people?
I pray you are joking.

I assumed (I know, sigh) that you had some idea in mind when you made that charge against Christians.

I could have made blanket statements like you but I prefered not to.
If that disappoints you I can't help that and I have a feeling that someday, you'll get over it.
In the meanwhile, start during the Crusades to find this mindset that allows christians to only release the soul and not murder.
You might even find it before I do.

Advanced physics will tell us that God doesn't exist?

Yes.
It will and already has.
For example another of the rational proofs is about claiming god is all knowing and all powerful.
Physics shows us he can only be one but not both.
He can be all powerful but not all knowing or be all knowing and not all powerful.
If god knows all, then he knows the future.
Gods all powerful, then he can change the future.
If god is all knowing, then he admits he can't change the future if he knows it's outcome but can not stop it.
And if god is powerful enough to change the future then he can't accurately predict it or doesn't actually know it and thusly is not all knowing.
Simple rational proofs with a basis in physics.
Just as I had claimed and there are eight others.
Sure you have heard them and others but YOU asked...I answered.
Meanwhile religion has no such proofs against atheism because rational is not in the religious vocabulary unless you are talking about "numbers".

-Peace-

Morning,

The bottomline which you have ALL avoided here is that NONE of you...NOT ONE can refute or has even attempted to refute the medical and psychological data I presented to back up my claim on this subject. I proved my point and the rest of you still whinge on about unassociated "feelings" and "emotions".
Refute my evidence or stop wasting my time, you've had well over a week now.
If you can't refute the medical evidence then you must concede the arguement.

-Peace-

reply to post by charles1952

The New Testament is a collection of writings by people who claim to have seen Jesus, or talked to people who did. As far as I know there have been no significant factual errors found in it, and if the Gospels were fiction, they were written in a fictional-realism style which the world had not seen

Dearest Charles,

The "collection of writings" is by people who say they heard (or read) it said that a person claimed to have seen Jesus.

As for that form of fictional-realism? Oh, yes, it existed. Homer; Ulysses. The Greeks were very astute at writing epic poems, plays, and dramatization. The dialogues of Plato are certainly written in a fictional-realism style.

Fondly,
wildtimes

reply to post by InfinitePerspective

So, yes point of view could boil down to "belief" or "accepted conclusion" as you say, however they are still unique faces in their own right. It is simply a matter of how you choose to look at it.

YES!!! That is exactly it!! belated star and applause from a lowly misfit member....

Every single person on this planet has "accepted conclusions" by the time they reach the age of observation/response. Yet EVERY PERSON has a DIFFERENT, unique face in their own right.

One of my favorite 'tools' for personal insightfulness is to EXAMINE how we embraced a belief to begin with.
(and this is anything from "I'm a fat slob" to "the world is flat" to "I can do anything"....you get the idea.)
Many, many MANY people have not investigated HOW their upbringing 'constructed' their worldview...
and even fewer have been brave enough to stand up to their upbringing, and say,

".....Wait. WHAT?"

SO FEW people that it is a travesty. But once one understands what about their early environment instilled those 'accepted conditions', they are then free to explore 'off of that island.'

The issue you speak of can be broken down into many complex and irrelevant details that could be explained in depth at great length, but it is not of significance, to this individual at least to dwell on it, as communication of these concepts through written and spoken language is inefficient and allows for error and misinterpretation.

It's called "Narrative Therapy."

star for you

Eryiedes
Morning,

The bottomline which you have ALL avoided here is that NONE of you...NOT ONE can refute or has even attempted to refute the medical and psychological data I presented to back up my claim on this subject. I proved my point and the rest of you still whinge on about unassociated "feelings" and "emotions".
Refute my evidence or stop wasting my time, you've had well over a week now.
If you can't refute the medical evidence then you must concede the arguement.

-Peace-

ALL is pretty darned inclusive and I take personal offense at taking the time to respond to your thread only to be insulted. Only one of two things are possible. Either you didn't bother to read my replies or you've decided they weren't worthy of your notice.

If all you had wanted was refutations and an argument, you could have saved MY time by saying so up front.

You don't like having your time wasted? Next time I'll know not to waste mine...

CornShucker
ALL is pretty darned inclusive and I take personal offense at taking the time to respond to your thread only to be insulted. Only one of two things are possible. Either you didn't bother to read my replies or you've decided they weren't worthy of your notice.

Speaking of "not noticing", you forgot the third possiblity.
The one where this isn't my thread...

-Peace-

reply to post by GargIndia

Honesty, compassion etc taught by religions are necessary for order in society. If every person becomes a thief, can society function???

No only the select few who in a priveleged position get to keep the stolen goods. GFC and the bailouts of the banks, while the sheep keep getting sheared. Laws are made to protect vested interests. Crumbs like the "common good of society" are fed to the sheep. Slavery and theft. Meanwhile we get platitudes like " god has put leaders in their position" pray for the leaders.

But back on topic, the history of psychotherapy shows a pseudo science centred on the premise that dubious personal observations could be constructed into a science. Psychiatry is modern day state sanctioned medicalization, the theraupetic state. No one questions psychiatry because it has the quasi legal force of the state and the judiciary behind it.

Think hard as to what you define as a mental illness,

Eryiedes

CornShucker
ALL is pretty darned inclusive and I take personal offense at taking the time to respond to your thread only to be insulted. Only one of two things are possible. Either you didn't bother to read my replies or you've decided they weren't worthy of your notice.

Speaking of "not noticing", you forgot the third possiblity.
The one where this isn't my thread...

It's easy when someone else is making proclamations as if speaking slightly down from the higher ground to make the mistaken assumption they have something invested personally. My mistake...