Does paranormal exist?

reply to post by SuperFrog


The only real proof that people believe is when they witness something that scares the total crap out of them, and in person..

Like being in an old building and looking at an old piano that suddenly something slams the keys even though nothing is visibly there.

Or some dumb people playing with a spirit board, who then get the crap scratched out of them, like big raking claw marks on their backs that draw blood.. All done by something invisible.. This tends to be proof to those people..

Proof is usually in the eye of the beholder..

Seeing real hells angels mocking you and cursing you tends to be another form of proof that the paranormal is very real also..

All of these proofs don't mean a whole lot to someone who hasn't seen it for themselves, or wishes to stay in a nice world of denial however...

SuperFrog
I consider myself open minded, I am not under influence of any of religions, nor I believe that there is god in any form, being a fatherly figure that monitors what we do 24x7, nor god as force behind creation of universe.

Trough my education I was able to inform myself on many so called 'paranormal experience' other claimed they experienced, but as soon as you start asking questions, most of discussion turn very easy into clash/fight.

Similar to Richard Dawkins, I tend to believe that people who believe in stories of someone's paranormal experience or for example prediction are actually enemies of reason.

One would say that such a thing is harmless, but that remind me of James Randi's Ted Talk when he debunks Sylvia Browne for con-artist she really is. For those who don't know about Sylvia, she claims she can talk to dead people. Her son apparently has the same 'gift', but cost less to have him contact some of your dead folks. (only about 200 bucks, 500 if you want Sylvia to do it)

Same goes for horoscope, reading from stars... all other paranormal activities...

My question is, do you really believe paranormal exists??

And more importantly, do you believe it is harmless?

Bonus question is, WHY do those that claim paranormal get so easily offended?

edit on 13-11-2013 by SuperFrog because: (no reason given)

For me it's quite simple: opposite to what you say, that believing someone's paranormal experience is being an enemy or reason, I think it's an enemy of reason not to in many cases.

I mean, there are thousands and thousands upon thousands of reports of say, ghosts. I just don't think EVERYONE is lying, or that everyone is delusional, or that everyone made it up for attention or whatever. It's the opposite of reason to assume that none of them are something unexplainable considering how many of them there are.

To believe one single person's account, well that depends on who that person is. For me it's one single person's account, but the sheer number of similar stories not just now, but spanning centuries. To me, it again lacks reason to assume none of them can be true or that they can all be relegated to "a scientific explanation." People are always trying to "explain" these things, which to me, usually means some way of making sure that their everyday, "normal" perception of reality stays intact. So they find a way to fit these things into that, or dismiss them as hallucination. None of that makes sense or has reason or logic to me.

In fact, some of the explanations that have been brought forward for various paranormal phenomena are actually crazier sounding and more ridiculous or impossible sounding than the experiences they are trying to debunk.

And then there are my own experiences. The main one being when I was 7 years old, I was lying in bed and saw myself come running into the room and the corner of my bed and jump INTO me. Being only 8, I knew it was odd, but I wasn't too bothered by it (like I might be now!) and I just went to sleep. Next day my sister told me she had seen me in her room in the middle of the night, but when she got out of bed to go over to me, I was gone.

So whatever, I was there. I know the difference between a dream and reality. I was awake and it happened. And yes, I would be offended if someone told me I was lying.

So for me, that and a few other experiences lead me to quite easily believe that paranormal is quite real.

reply to post by MamaJ


Thank you for bringing good example.

Our current understanding of the mind “now lies broken at our feet”—for, as the doctor writes, “What happened to me destroyed it, and I intend to spend the rest of my life investigating the true nature of consciousness and making the fact that we are more, much more, than our physical brains as clear as I can, both to my fellow scientists and to people at large.”

Interestingly, the way I heard about this was by reading Sam Harris' response - There Must be Heaven. I could not agree more.

Before we continue, let's not forget that Sam Harris does not even question existence of spirituality, what puts him apart from large amount of scientists. No one has every 'grilled' him because of that.

As many of you know, I am interested in “spiritual” experiences of the sort Alexander reports. Unlike many atheists, I don’t doubt the subjective phenomena themselves—that is, I don’t believe that everyone who claims to have seen an angel, or left his body in a trance, or become one with the universe, is lying or mentally ill. Indeed, I have had similar experiences myself in meditation, in lucid dreams (even while meditating in a lucid dream), and through the use of various psychedelics (in times gone by). I know that astonishing changes in the contents of consciousness are possible and can be psychologically transformative.

So as example of paranormal, I should trust Dr. Eben on his dream of heaven as clear proof that there is heaven?!


Let me tell you little story how my family lost interest in paranormal... Soon after second world ended, there were many fortune teller, those who can speak with dead or tell you the truth by reading from your palm. (and many other disciplines) In country where my grandfather lived, most of them were Gypsy, who would do such a thing for little of food or anything to support their families.

My grandpa's best friend was gypsy, and he knew about this very well, while my grandmother used to give them money, but she was willing to 'hear' what those women had to say. (be it telling future or reading past) Grandpa did not mind her giving them money, but he was fed up by made up stories, so he did little experiment, and grandmother never expected anything.

He stopped one of those women before his house, told her great deal about family and gave her money to go in there before him. At the time he went in house, my grandmother was very well impressed, as lady knew everything about her, family. friends,.... but nothing prepared her for joke.

Lady told her. You have 5 kids (my grandfather still there) 3 are from this man, but only you know who is father of other 2.

Never again did any of those con artist read my grandmother's palm or tell her future... They would get food or coin, but that was it... just as help, as times were very bad where we are from.

SuperFrog
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Believe what you want, your little or holy book, or simple example that there is no single proof of paranormal so far, be in on Randi's challenge or on any other TV show.

Now, let's rise stakes a bit more....

Why all of those things happen only when person is ALONE? Why something really interesting and paranormal does not happen anywhere in public space, in front of group of people?!

What is purpose of those paranormal activity? Just to scare medium?

Really like to learn more... please explain it to me.


@Lunette - if ghosts were real - they would not be ghosts, would they?

Have you been living under a rock? There are hundreds of examples of paranormal events happening to more than one person. One of the most interesting was in Italy a few decades ago, or maybe 20 years or so ago, thousands of people saw in the sky, an apparition of the virgin Mary. The thing is, only half of them saw that, while the other half saw what they described as UFOs while looking at the same sky.

thebtheb
I mean, there are thousands and thousands upon thousands of reports of say, ghosts. I just don't think EVERYONE is lying, or that everyone is delusional, or that everyone made it up for attention or whatever. It's the opposite of reason to assume that none of them are something unexplainable considering how many of them there are.

Thank you for proving my point. There are so many reports, but NEVER it happened like in public place, in large group of people. Why? If ghost liked to make an impression, wouldn't be better if they do it on larger group?

To believe one single person's account, well that depends on who that person is. For me it's one single person's account, but the sheer number of similar stories not just now, but spanning centuries. To me, it again lacks reason to assume none of them can be true or that they can all be relegated to "a scientific explanation." People are always trying to "explain" these things, which to me, usually means some way of making sure that their everyday, "normal" perception of reality stays intact. So they find a way to fit these things into that, or dismiss them as hallucination. None of that makes sense or has reason or logic to me.

Many similar stories do not prove much, do they, without single of them being repeatable?

In fact, some of the explanations that have been brought forward for various paranormal phenomena are actually crazier sounding and more ridiculous or impossible sounding than the experiences they are trying to debunk.

Really, care to show an example?

And then there are my own experiences. The main one being when I was 7 years old, I was lying in bed and saw myself come running into the room and the corner of my bed and jump INTO me. Being only 8, I knew it was odd, but I wasn't too bothered by it (like I might be now!) and I just went to sleep. Next day my sister told me she had seen me in her room in the middle of the night, but when she got out of bed to go over to me, I was gone.

7 or 8?

So whatever, I was there. I know the difference between a dream and reality. I was awake and it happened. And yes, I would be offended if someone told me I was lying.

So for me, that and a few other experiences lead me to quite easily believe that paranormal is quite real.

I am not saying you are lying, but dreaming. Yes, quite possible. But why would you be offended? Are all of your memories when you were 7 or 8 that crystal clear? How can you tell it was real? Most importantly, does your experience make you unique?

And no, I never experienced anything like that. Not even when as kid I was hit by bike. It was fuzzy, true, but nothing... no paradise...

thebtheb
Have you been living under a rock? There are hundreds of examples of paranormal events happening to more than one person. One of the most interesting was in Italy a few decades ago, or maybe 20 years or so ago, thousands of people saw in the sky, an apparition of the virgin Mary. The thing is, only half of them saw that, while the other half saw what they described as UFOs while looking at the same sky.

Let me translate this to you, half of them when viewing something out of ordinary connected that to virgin Mary, other half to UFO. It is all brain doing, as Randi explained in beginning of his Ted Talk.

reply to post by SuperFrog

Star readings and horoscopes are not in any way considered paranormal. Look up the definition and rephrase your intent with this thread!

Then we can talk

SuperFrog

My question is, do you really believe paranormal exists??

I am certainly one of the biggest skeptics here on the site...but I want to give you a VERY GOOD example with a book I am reading right now. The book is called "Cosmic Serpent".

It is about Shamanism in the Amazon and other countries.

One extremely astonishing fact concerns the drug Shamans use, Ayahuasca...but there are other examples, for example the poison Curare they use for hunting.

Some of those drugs, medicines etc. Shamans use require a combination of plants to even work. One plant alone would release a certain chemical (drug), however it would be not effective in the human body - it needs another chemical from another plant so that the drug can work in the human body. (Simplified spoken here).

In the Amazon are 25.000+ different plants. It's almost mathematically impossible that the Shamans found about the right recipe for their Ayahuasca medicine by just blindly trying 1000s and 1000s of plants until some day by coincidence they found the right mixture where one plant produces the drug, and the other plant produces the chemical which makes the drug work in the body.

There is another example in the book where the guy, an anthroplogist suffers from backpain for many years. He already underwent modern treatment but none of those worked for his back pain.

He goes to a local shaman who gives him a brew, who tells him he will feel "like rubber" for a few days but then he will be cured. So he drinks it, in fact he loses all his ability to move for two days...after two days...his backpain is GONE.

If you ask the Shamans how they KNOW what plants to use, say, what plant to use against snake bites, what plant to combine with another one for Ayahuasca etc..they say that "the spirits" tell them...or even the plants itself tell them.

No one thinks they are "crazy", in fact their mystical views are considered a real part of our world, with the exception that we cannot SEE this "other reality" with our normal, waking consciousness.

What I am saying here is there are indeed other "realities" out there, and our inability to see them does not mean those realities do not exist.

By the way, Dr. Eben's book on NDE/afterlife is one of the worst books on the subject. There are much, much better books on the topic out there.

Dr. Eben just had the luck to be featured on Oprah (as is my understanding)...the book is not good and I actually think he is not even credible. Sorry, some time ago I read this book.

SuperFrog

But as for paranormal, why, if paranormal really exists, no one (again, bit bigger letters) NO ONE has ever beein able to claim One Million Dollar challenge?!

Because, you know, they rejected all the claims? This doesn't say much. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the content of those tests remain undisclosed to the public? Nobody but the staff and the claimant know what happened in there, and the staff ain't telling. It's pretty much "Take our word for it, they all failed" and we must believe in the staff's honesty as an a priori truth. Meh.

reply to post by SuperFrog

Why all of those things happen only when person is ALONE? Why something really interesting and paranormal does not happen anywhere in public space, in front of group of people?!

They don't only happen when a person is alone. Often times it is a shared experience. Many people report mass sighting of ufo's, apparitions, ghost phenomenon. The psychic who does a reading for someone in front of several people and gets it right.

It is not something that only happens to just the person. However to produce something on demand, well, that is something that is harder to do. Supposedly there are people out there who can, but, from my own experience with it all, unless a person wants to spend most of their life in some form of funky meditation and almost monk like devotion to self improvement/empowerment, it stays elusive but it still happens.

But that is just my own experience with ESP,
it is more work than it is worth.
I would much rather enjoy my life and have the occasional ESP brain fart...

lol

SuperFrog

thebtheb
Have you been living under a rock? There are hundreds of examples of paranormal events happening to more than one person. One of the most interesting was in Italy a few decades ago, or maybe 20 years or so ago, thousands of people saw in the sky, an apparition of the virgin Mary. The thing is, only half of them saw that, while the other half saw what they described as UFOs while looking at the same sky.

Let me translate this to you, half of them when viewing something out of ordinary connected that to virgin Mary, other half to UFO. It is all brain doing, as Randi explained in beginning of his Ted Talk.

The experiances is based on self bias projection but can be observed by others. The message uses the self bias (the language of you and your experiance) to get the message to you. So because you hear about UFO:S you manifest Ufo:s. In other places it will be djinns since the UFO phenomena is not known to the people.

I am happy that I did not know about chakras (or whatever the energy centers who can be physically felt are) before 2 suddenly activated. That makes my experiances not based on what I knew but the unknown revealing itself to me.

You have the same problem in ESP. Psychics and many very weak using self biased projection that deludes the information they get from the third eye since they are talking in their self biased language and not in the self biased language of the person who they are giving the information to.

Learn Reiki or whatever other technique for manifestation and experience yourself what you can do if you go into faith mode and believe you can manifest healing in another person. If I can do it then everybody can do it.

alienreality
Or some dumb people playing with a spirit board, who then get the crap scratched out of them, like big raking claw marks on their backs that draw blood.. All done by something invisible.. This tends to be proof to those people..

Thank you for mentioning a 'spirit board' or Ouija board. This bring us to our next paranormal expert - Laura Knight-Jadzyk and her Cassiopaea cult. This, in my opinion is great example how dangerous are this con artists and how easy they are able to exploit uneducated followers. Control trough some extra-ordinary claims and constant threat of coming 'wave' and promised survival only for those who are self aware.... nothing different then most of religions. If she has lived 2 thousands years ago, we would have 1-2 more bible book.

More about this, you can read on Cassiopaea's web site or this little article.

As for part of getting scared into believer, you see, if they ever managed to pull something like that in lab (call spirits) and have results as you suggested - huge scar... that is what whole topic is about. Why it never happens in controlled environment? Those urban legends are just that - urban legends.

Ouija board were studied in lab and conclusion was always the same - under laboratory conditions, the subjects were moving the planchette involuntarily. Even kids were able to figure that one out... hamptonroads.com...



reply to post by mysterioustranger
Predicting future by looking at charts.... is not paranormal? Pseudo-science is not paranormal?

At least this one was very easy to debunk. About the same accurate if you give people horoscope that was not intended for them for that week.



reply to post by NoRulesAllowed
First of all, they did not have to know all 25K plants to learn effects of some of them. Today medicine is largely build on exactly on this, years of experience on healing power of some of plants. One of my ancestors was 'herbalist', large amount of her knowledge was passed down and is still within family.
It is simple, possible to test and mainly result of trail/fails trough history. Some still call her magician, as they lacked knowledge of healing power of those plants.

Extraordinary claim, such as this one (spirit instructing them) is very easy to test. Send 50 people with some terminal illness and check how many of them get healed, if works, great, we might be able to cure cancer and aids. But I guess no one tried it yet, or did they?

Cathcart
Because, you know, they rejected all the claims? This doesn't say much. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the content of those tests remain undisclosed to the public? Nobody but the staff and the claimant know what happened in there, and the staff ain't telling. It's pretty much "Take our word for it, they all failed" and we must believe in the staff's honesty as an a priori truth. Meh.

Completely wrong. Many times he would be called by different hosts. Check video I posted about James Randi, you will find that he was called to night show to debunk 'gifted' people, of whom some made tons of money by scamming people. That is meh imho.




reply to post by LittleByLittle

UFO is completely different subject. It was seriously studied across world, we have many claims but no evidence for those claims. Some can argue that evidence is destroyed or controlled by government(s).

Without evidence, all those sightings I still place with brain making its own conclusions based on stuff we see from movies and read in books.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be proven wrong, but I remain skeptic.

reply to post by SuperFrog


I have only recently been read by a medium. I'm forty years old.

She has been considered authentic and local. Why would I have ever went to someone who wasn't.

Your Grandparents sound like they were "helping" someone out who called them self a gypsy. Bad judgement call on their part. We can look at it another way though. They were genuinely trying to help, unlike the gypsy.

I feel like I could take up a couple of pages of my experiences, but what good would it do? They are mine and mine alone. Not many people believe based on anothers experience.

reply to post by MamaJ



So, do you believe all your medium has told you?

Not sure that fact that lady in my story about grandfather was gypsy has anything to do with final result. In one of nearby village there was large gypsy population, that lived there for a long time. As I mentioned, my grandfather had one of best friends among those people. As kid I was listening to many stories, but it is hard for me to recall them. (I was 10 year old when he died)

reply to post by SuperFrog


I find it very difficult to believe the stories of others concerning their paranormal experiences, as I see how people jump to conclusions, misrepresent and exaggerate experiences. On the whole, I believe 99% of mediums to be fake. I suspect that the majority of them believe they are able to contact the dead, see the future etc, but some fake it intentionally for money or perhaps attention,

However, after all the experiences I have had in my four decades on this planet, I have to say that if I didn't believe in paranormal, I would have to be insane, to totally ignore or discount things like my tobacco pouch actually rising of the table moving 18 inches then dropping to the floor, in front of others, would make me a fool!

I have some gifts, which very occasionally occur in a full on manner, however I can encourage them to occur, I am not in control of it they do or don't.

They have protected me when I have been at my most vulnerable though. in fact sometimes they are so strong that I follow the guidance I am getting, although right now I am not seeing any benefit from one path I have been following for almost 3 years, all the signs have been good on it up till now.

If this particular future that I know/saw actually happens, I will find this thread and let you all know! I would think it should be made certain at some point in the next twelve months and everything thing I am doing now is to get myself ready for it.

NEW SCIENCE / PARAPSYCHOLOGY

“Chris Carter is a one-man wrecking crew for the time-worn, tedious, petulant, and often flimsy complaints of the die-hard skeptics. A science of consciousness is doomed to be incomplete without taking Carter’s keen insights into account.”
--Larry Dossey, M.D., author of Healing Words and The Power of Premonitions

Reports of psychic abilities, such as telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition, and psychokinesis, date back to the beginning of recorded human history in all cultures. Documented, reproducible evidence exists that these abilities are real, yet the mainstream scientific community has vehemently denied the existence of psi phenomena for centuries.
The battle over the reality of psi has carried on in scientific academies, courtrooms, scholarly journals, newspapers, and radio stations and has included scandals, wild accusations, ruined reputations, as well as bizarre characters on both sides of the debate. If true evidence exists, why then is the study of psi phenomena--parapsychology--so controversial? And why has the controversy lasted for centuries?

Exploring the scandalous history of parapsychology and citing decades of research, Chris Carter shows that, contrary to mainstream belief, replicable evidence of psi phenomena exists.

The controversy over parapsychology continues not because ESP and other abilities cannot be verified but because their existence challenges deeply held worldviews more strongly rooted in religious and philosophical beliefs than in hard science. Carter reveals how the doctrine of materialism--in which nothing matters but matter--has become an infallible article of faith for many scientists and philosophers, much like the convictions of religious fundamentalists.

Consequently, the possibility of psychic abilities cannot be tolerated because their existence would refute materialism and contradict a deeply ingrained ideology. By outlining the origin of this passionate debate, Carter calls on all open-minded individuals to disregard the church of skepticism and reach their own conclusions by looking at the vast body of evidence.

CHRIS CARTER received his undergraduate and master’s degrees from the University of Oxford. The author of Science and the Near-Death Experience, Carter is originally from Canada and currently teaches internationally.

Science and Psychic Phenomena: The Fall of the House of Skeptics

This ^^^ is from the back cover. My "little or holy book"? Superfrog, WHY did you start this thread if you'd already made up your mind? I thought you were asking a question.

Sources have been provided for you that not only debunk James Randi, but that PROVE psi DOES exist -
quantum mechanics/physics is already getting on board. It's the strict materialists (based on Newtonian physics that are now known to be false) who are refusing to acknowledge the FACTS.

I hope you will take the time to look at the page linked - it is the amazon page for the book, and contains DOZENS of editorial reviews, and customer reviews - many of them from doctors in the fields of medicine, psychology, and physics.

Here are just a few of the professional reviews:

“I highly recommend this book to anyone who is truly open-minded about whether or not psychic abilities exist. Chris Carter takes the reader on an insightful journey that weaves together history, scientific data, modern physics, psychology, and philosophy of science. He convincingly shows that it’s now possible to replace belief-based opinion with solid science when discussing the possible reality of psychic phenomena.”
(Jessica Utts, Ph.D., professor of statistics, University of California, Davis, and author of An Assessment of the Evidence for Psychic Functioning)

“Chris Carter has put together quite a treatise. In thoroughly readable, engaging, and clear prose, he provides an erudite and comprehensive review of the skeptical and scientific studies of events that don’t fit present paradigms. Despite having researched the subject extensively myself, I found a deep well of new information. Carter’s book is both scholarly and entertaining.”
(Robert S. Bobrow, M.D., clinical associate professor of family medicine at Stony Brook University and author of The Witch in the Waiting Room)

Carter methodically and masterfully reveals that the skeptic’s position is increasingly untenable. . . . A refreshingly rational and well written investigation of the science of psi.”
(Dean Radin, Ph.D., senior scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences)

“Chris Carter’s Science and Psychic Phenomena is a must read for anyone who wishes to penetrate the distortions and lies of the skeptics regarding psychic phenomena. Clearly written, and a pleasure to read!”
(Neal Grossman, Ph.D., professor emeritus, University of Illinois at Chicago)

“Carter confronts legitimate criticism with solid scientific evidence and deftly exposes the anti-science stand of the dogmatic skeptics. He makes a compelling case for taking the science of parapsychology seriously. . . . A must-read for anyone interested in the true state of this important debate.”
(Richard Broughton, Ph.D., author of Parapsychology: The Controversial Science and senior lecturer in psychology, The University of Northampton)

I get the impression you don't WANT it to be real. That won't change anything, unless you are a person like Randi (A NON-SCIENTIST) who can sustain a following in the face of the EVIDENCE.

SuperFrog

Completely wrong. Many times he would be called by different hosts. Check video I posted about James Randi, you will find that he was called to night show to debunk 'gifted' people, of whom some made tons of money by scamming people. That is meh imho.

Huh? I thought we were talking about the preliminary tests for the One Million Dollar Challenge? Not about night shows on mediums...I'm afraid I don't follow you.

But you said I am completely wrong? So this means there does exist an accessible, comprehensive account of the tests for the OMDC? Wow, this is great news! Could you please post a link to these documents? I'm interested in knowing the lowdown of those experiments, how the participants fared and under which criterions they failed. This will be an informative read!

reply to post by wildtimes


This Chris Carter?




reply to post by Cathcart


What I said, Randi did not debunk psychics and their power in his organization, but he did so when called by others as well. For example, someone would call someone who makes extraordinary claims and call him as well. There are many of those encounters and all of them ended up with claim being debunked. He even show in some examples how those claims are done, like telekinesis of moving pet with your mind, where actually it is moved by stream of air. As soon as he put some paper on table that would show air flow, pencil managed to never move again.

Now, it is interesting how magicians are those leading to prove that there is no such a thing as magic. Randi, Penn and Teller or even great Houdini. Many of them are atheist as well...

reply to post by SuperFrog


Well, that's interesting and all, but it still says nothing about the One Million Dollar Challenge. You claimed that the OMDC constituted solid evidence, but I argued this isn't the case because the OMDC isn't even public and there's no way to tell, and you answered me that I was wrong. So is it public or not? I don't want to be rude, but I have the feeling you're trying to circumvent the question. Kinda strange, since it is such a simple question...