Should Religious People Be Held Responsible?

WarminIndy

olaru12
reply to post by NoRegretsEver

 

As ATS slides more and more into the Conservative Right wing model, the evangelical Christians are sure to follow because They mostly share the same mind set, agenda, politics and cosmology.

Everyone, not just Christians or the religious in general need to take responsibility for their thoughts, actions and the consequences of their behavior.

However it is very convienient to have a ready made scapgoat built into your religion....."the devil made me do it"

edit on 8-11-2013 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)

The devil made me do it is a lazy response and one not acceptable of accountability or responsibility.

That's not built into Christianity, some Christians just evolved their worldview to include it. And certainly the Jews never say that.

The devil made me do it...blah.

How many time have you heard of child abuse by Christians using the excuse of beating the devil out of their kids?

historyspaces.blogspot.com...

www.patheos.com...

www.skepdic.com...

sodere.com...

want more?

reply to post by olaru12


And again I would refer you to a couple of things:

Francis S. Collins refers to faith as a pure water which gets poured into the flawed, rusty human vessel. Of course, when faith comes back out it is often corrupted, tainted. When you pour clean water into a tainted vessel and get tainted water out, which do you blame - the water you put in or the vessel that tainted it? Human beings are all flawed and apt to corrupt the things they touch.

Two you can also see this in the seven letters written to the seven churches in Revelation:

"Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place." Rev 2:4-5

To me, these people all do the "proper" things in the name of the faith, demonstrate works with great fervor, but they long ago abandoned any love they held. This leads them to do horrific things in the name of their faith. They think they are doing good works, but they are doing evil in truth.

Jesus himself told us that we are to hold love above all things, and this is not love. They don't see it though. They've lost their way.

I've never had a problem with religious people challenging my ways to my face. I've never got into an argument with anyone in the past about religion. I've read the bible to learn what it says, and using the information I have acquired I can usually stop any conflicts easily. I have met some radicals, I feel sorry for them. What a way to spend your life. I guess they just lost their head about the serene feeling that Christianity is supposed to give you. Hmmm...losing their head...John the baptist...similarities of words.

Should religious people be held responsible for the feelings of the non-religious?

No, they shouldn't...and neither should the non-religious be held responsible for the feelings of the religious...unless the religious want to blather on about how satans little tricks are working on you...then bets are off...

A very clever question

Å99

reply to post by ketsuko


Why is it that during a discourse with a Christian on ATS, I always feel I'm being "preached" to with the ever present biblical quotes and references to support their position.


I find the holier than thou attitudes arrogant and rude. Perhaps a reading of this might get you more intune with protocol on the boards.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

olaru12
reply to post by ketsuko

 

Why is it that during a discourse with a Christian on ATS, I always feel I'm being "preached" to with the ever present biblical quotes and references to support their position.


I find the holier than thou attitudes arrogant and rude. Perhaps a reading of this might get you more intune with protocol on the boards.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

...without the support, they fall down...
Religio: 'Look! I have a crutch...it's helping me walk...see?!'
Non-religio: 'ya...but it's not a real leg!'
Religio: 'but it's holding me up, and I can walk with it, so it must be a leg!'

...because the brain God gave them is incapable of forming an original thought...or they have become very very complacent...getting used to a crutch for a brain...

Å99

reply to post by olaru12


Good grief! I'm so sorry I explained my counter using examples to help illustrate what I was trying to say.

Would it help if I simply said, "They lost the love?"

We say that all the time, and it's never good enough.

You people who have decided we are all awful people will still be awful about it.

You refuse to accept that some people who call themselves by the name of Christian do awful things in the name of the faith. The same way that people who are atheists do awful things in the name of lack of faith. The same way that people who are Muslims do awful things in the name of their faith. The same way that Buddhists do awful things in the name of their philosophy ... I could go on.

But how about this.

Refer to the first quote again.

It is a scientist who is simply saying that it is human nature. Human effing nature. To do things that are bad and blame them on other things than their own personal choices.

reply to post by borntowatch

Well I believe everyone was born broken

Well, I think that's sad, and a lie, told to children in order to 'break them'. Sick.

reply to post by Beavers

So why would you want to take that happiness away from me? Why do you want to stop me sending love, good will and kindness to others? What's in it for you?

Why do you think that learning the truth about religion and its agenda would STOP you sending love, goodwill, and kindness to others?

I didn't even read your whole post yet - just had to answer this question. If you're happy and loving, that's great. No one is trying to take that away from you. Keep it up!! Regardless of whether or not the flaws of "religion" are exposed. Nothing stopping you.

Do you think that if you stop believing in what religion teaches, you would suddenly turn into an insensitive, selfish jerk???

I really don't understand that mindset. Not at all.

ketsuko
reply to post by olaru12

 

Good grief! I'm so sorry I explained my counter using examples to help illustrate what I was trying to say.

Would it help if I simply said, "They lost the love?"

We say that all the time, and it's never good enough.

You people who have decided we are all awful people will still be awful about it.

You refuse to accept that some people who call themselves by the name of Christian do awful things in the name of the faith. The same way that people who are atheists do awful things in the name of lack of faith. The same way that people who are Muslims do awful things in the name of their faith. The same way that Buddhists do awful things in the name of their philosophy ... I could go on.

But how about this.

Refer to the first quote again.

It is a scientist who is simply saying that it is human nature. Human effing nature. To do things that are bad and blame them on other things than their own personal choices.

And actually, I gotta say...it is far more refreshing to hear/read it in your own words. (not specifically you, obviously

...and, it being human nature, and as you've pointed out - 'awefulness' is not relegated to any one socio-politico-religio group...there should never then, be, a division created amongst this 'human nature' group on the grounds of separation based on distance from God, or the chosen prophet...but, invariably christians have the habit of employing this form of psychology that divides according to this invisible rule...

Cheers

Å99

It all boils down to personal responsibility and respect for others.

Something of which - is lacking in society today.

It's ego - and stroking it - to bring someone around to a way of thinking. It validates our personal worldview, when others embrace it. Even atheists, wan to enlighten and free the relious superstitous, and bring them around to their groups way of thinking.

I don't know how to fix that about us - the group/mob mentality thing. I've long ago given up on being a part of society and seeking out a like minded group. It doesn't exist for me. I'm an oddball. I generally don't like what people do, what they say about others, how the think and justify it. I can't assimilate.

CdT

reply to post by WarminIndy

Are they for real???? That's what I ask myself all the time. They must be real then and it's not a joke. And if it is a joke, it's a very bad one.

Are they for real???

Oh, yes, they are VERY for real.

I recently heard Nate Phelps speak (in Lawrence, Kansas, where I grew up and went to university) - and his words received a standing ovation BECAUSE HE ABANDONED THE CRAP he was brought up with.

He's STILL working through the shame, degradation, abuse, and self-loathing that his idiot father imposed on him (and the whole family - there are all ONE FAMILY)...

like ketsuko said - they are an abomination, and a big, oozing sore on this country, of which Kansas is definitely ashamed.

An LBGTQ group actually bought the house across from their 'church' (cult HQ) and painted the house rainbow colors - one color on each clapboard. Just to get all "up in their grill" (face)....

Poor Nate. Two of his sisters have also left the church and are now, crippled as they were by their father's abuse and their mother's incompetence to protect them, out speaking AGAINST the harsh Calvinist dogma that their nutjob maniac father instilled in them.

Sadly, he still has a grip on MOST of the family, AND THEIR KIDS (like FF said, who DON'T KNOW BETTER, so they can't resist)....

but Nate did get it, by the time he was a teen. He left a midnight on his 18th birthday - had packed and got ready covertly for weeks before that....and he ESCAPED!!!

YAY!!!

Such a nice, decent guy. And SO damaged by his family's tyrant father.
Sad. Very, very sad. THAT is what I fight against.

reply to post by wildtimes


You mis-understand.

I'm happy with my religion, I don't care if its true or not (not that you have any proof either way).

Why do you want to take away my happiness?

reply to post by ketsuko

The same way that Buddhists do awful things in the name of their philosophy

Wait. WHAT?
What "awful things" do Buddhists do? Aside from setting themselves on fire in protest of their persecution, I can find NO FAULT with the Buddhists. But, come to think of it, I think I might have heard there were some violent ones....

I am partial to Tibetan Buddhism....and Thich Nhat Hahn (sp?), who are all about calm, connection, serenity, acceptance of life, and learning how to reach the divine.

What part of Kansas did you grow up in??

reply to post by Beavers

Why do you want to take away my happiness?

NO ONE wants to "take away" your happiness here. You can still be a happy person, a charitable, loving, kind person, even if the tales and legends you've been told are not really true.

I wish you'd join in on the "What's so Scary about thinking, or discovering, your Religion is false" thread....

giving up belief in myths does NOT take away your ability and freedom to believe in GOD and the goodness of humanity and our 'Source.'

I am always confused when people say, "Why do you [Christianity critics] want to destroy my faith?"

We don't. We are simply trying to get people to let go of the 'shame factor'. I was raised as a Christian - it never melded for me; but I still believe what Jesus TAUGHT was a correct message. Why is it so threatening to realize that ALL major world religions have said the same thing???

The only thing that matters is living by the Golden Rule. There's NOTHING to fear.... We are all going to reunite with the Divine - because we are ALL PART of the Divine.

You were not born a sinner.
You are not doomed to hell if you don't accept dogma and doctrine.
You are here to learn, not just take someone else's word for it.

And, you WILL learn, as you go along - that clinging to a 'religious meme' does not MAKE a person good. Likewise, giving UP the reiligious "meme" does not annihilate hope, charity, goodwill, kindness, etc.

Brightest blessings. It'll all be okay. No worries.

akushla99
Should religious people be held responsible for the feelings of the non-religious?

No, they shouldn't...and neither should the non-religious be held responsible for the feelings of the religious...unless the religious want to blather on about how satans little tricks are working on you...then bets are off...

A very clever question

Å99

Yes they should and no they shouldn't.

I think the bible says to be gentle in your endeavors, because of the light ya know. Paul says that if members of the faith are to not eat with all the lovely epithets of people, members of the faith would have to leave this world.

Then again, I think Jesus told the disciples to pick up their shoes and bounce if a town doesn't receive them when he ordered them to drive out spirits and heal illnesses in the lost sheep of Israel.

wildtimes
reply to post by ketsuko

 

The same way that Buddhists do awful things in the name of their philosophy

Wait. WHAT?
What "awful things" do Buddhists do? Aside from setting themselves on fire in protest of their persecution, I can find NO FAULT with the Buddhists. But, come to think of it, I think I might have heard there were some violent ones....

I am partial to Tibetan Buddhism....and Thich Nhat Hahn (sp?), who are all about calm, connection, serenity, acceptance of life, and learning how to reach the divine.

What part of Kansas did you grow up in??

Apparently, these Buddhists and these are apparently tired of their muslim neighbors. In Burma they are being led by a monk calling himself the Burmese bin Laden, and neither Sri Lanka nor Burma have been experiencing muslim extremism to have provoked these attacks.

I grew up in the central part. What's called the "Golden Triangle."

DelayedChristmas

akushla99
Should religious people be held responsible for the feelings of the non-religious?

No, they shouldn't...and neither should the non-religious be held responsible for the feelings of the religious...unless the religious want to blather on about how satans little tricks are working on you...then bets are off...

A very clever question

Å99

Yes they should and no they shouldn't.

I think the bible says to be gentle in your endeavors, because of the light ya know. Paul says that if we are to not eat with all the lovely epithets of people, we would have to leave this world.

Then again, I think Jesus told the disciples to pick up their shoes and bounce if a town doesn't receive them.

edit on 8-11-2013 by DelayedChristmas because: (no reason given)

Appreciated...but the relegated to hell and eternal damnation line is far from 'gentle - in endeavour'...and, it is granted, not all xtians are like this, myself included...

...and, if jesus really did say that why would people hang around town, uninvited and not very well recieved?...if not to legitimise a persecution complex created by thier very own behaviour...

Either 'all bets are on', or 'all bets are off'...

Å99

wildtimes, how could you miss this one?

Beavers
reply to post by wildtimes

I don't care if its true or not (not that you have any proof either way).

I don't care if it's true or not????

Did a Christian just say that?

Is this person a Christian?

Dude, you should care whether it is true or not. You might be worshiping the Devil for all you know. OK, mind boggled today, what a way to wake up from a nap.

What a strange thing I just read, a Christian who doesn't care whether or not it is true.....

reply to post by akushla99


Fruits of their action?
Wolves in sheep's clothing?
Goats?

Or is it the man who didn't think about how much would a tower costs...

and obviously the disciples didn't bounce or else they would be named "The Beatitudes."