Did Exodus Really Happen? Most likely NOT

reply to post by FlyersFan


Except for the Knowledge that accurately correlates to an early egyptian cultural description, the 4 and 6 spoked wheels found by Ron wyatte under the red sea covering in corral and some still on there axels looking like upright tables the wood long gone but the gold veneer was actually intact from one and because it was one the sea bed sand and partially covered not corral infested along with human bones also covered in corral a sample femur of which belonged to a man about 5'6" and heavily built like a soldier and the shrunken horse hoof all on an underwater rise that crosses from egypt to arabia at deepest 200 feet below the surface and to either side 600 to 800 feet like a hidden bridge under the water, the Apis bulls carved on a stone altair that is on the Arabian side of the RED SEA near to another altair with a cattle enclosure and sacrificial platform and no apis bulls (not the sea of reeds and not har karkoum), the accurate portrayal of the area in the bible and the topography a simple religeous man found, the blackened peaked mountain (as described in the bible and quite unlike the platau of har karkoum) beyond and the split rock, then of course the tablets of the ten commandments themselves, well moses broke them or it and they accurately portray two sides of a cartouch in the egyptian form.

Ron wyatt may have been a semi mystic (his absolute faith giving him waking ecstasy and visions) but he was most certainly not a fraud and on that I will stand no matter what is said so please look up some of his videos on the net and dont judge before you do, he never made any money on this and was spending his own money but after his death money is certainly being made, still I will not critisize, muzzle not the ox which ploweth the field.

FlyersFan

NewAgeMan
Yes, I have the distinct impression that the historical Jesus may be next up on FlyersFan's attack list/campaign. It may have something to do with being raised Catholic..

Grow up. Seriously. If you don't like people investigating the truth, then go ahead and cling to your indoctrinations. But the fact that you think Catholics hate Jesus tells me how ignorant you are. Lemme' guess ... you LUV Jack Chick, right?

Discuss the facts and try to find TRUTH. Never be afraid of TRUTH, no matter where it takes you.

THIS^^^^FlyersFan hit the nail on the head and you can take it to the bank. Even bringing the figure of "Jesus" up still reflects this at least in what it is said to have been spoken by him.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

FlyersFan..He sees it, yet in HIS OWN WAY... taking the bible seriously he would be perhaps considered an Israelite. He knows the way. TRUTH is the way... it is the ONLY WAY. Find Truth above all else. Seeking it out will lead YOU to where you want to go. It's sad that religious zealots have cornered the market and sold lies as replacement faith for so long.. as this topic is very open to um.. well just about anyone comfortable within their own mind to think for themselves.

This is to say.. some people can connect with their "own" version of whatever "God" is to any number of varying degrees. That is their "God" (Even if it is the same throughout the possibilities of what/who/how/where it is are limitless in this expanse universe.) G.O.D. or Gaining Ones Definition.. is finding your own way in this crazy world. Some people need guidance and that is what the parables of Jesus are meant to help you on. Finding YOUR OWN way.. instead of the ways of OTHERS. The idea that Inviting the spirit of Christ inside of you almost gives it away! Once it is within you.. you should KNOW the natural laws and laws of the land and live accordingly to create good fate or karma.. the icing that you put on top.. is yours all the way through. Doesn't make it right.. doesn't make it wrong. The fact is we are all probably 99% wrong. The 1%? Perhaps that that we all at least "think"...therefore we are.

I don't know what any of this means it just came out.
To me. Finding life from aeons ago or on another planet just adds to the mystery and wonder of our entire existence from the beginning all the way up until now.

Truth will set you free. I mix science in with reading my Geneva Bible. Never satisfied. I constantly search for the "Truth". I'm still searching for God in some respects yet I'm also curious about life on Mars and the history of mankind on earth. Either way, I don't think my search will end until I cease to exist.. and I love it that way. As if Truth is hidden somewhere far far away, perhaps deep in your mind.. or space.. or both. Just waiting to be found again.

To that day. I say BRING IT. To ANYone who would try to lay a system upon me in terms of how I should accomplish this... I bid you adieu sir.

Love-Peace to ALL

The bible is primitive mythology, a collection of supernatural fairy stories for adults that are either gullible enough, or indoctrinated enough to give them any possibility of coinciding with reality (with much of it borrowed from other cultures).

There is no biblical god to begin with, he doesn't exist (a fairy story/myth).

In keeping with the general biblical theme (being made up of all sorts of ridiculous tall stories) there was no Jewish slave race in Egypt, no biblical "plagues", it's very unlikely a biblical "Moses" even existed at all, seas do not part on command/ because of magic sticks and therefore..... there was no biblical exodus (the whole thing is made up/a myth).

FlyersFan
Were the Jews ever mass enslaved in Egypt?

I think that it is interesting that you would take the time to make a thread trying to prove that the Exodus never happened, without knowing what a Jew is, or the fact that the word Jew didn't even exist when the Exodus occurred. So I guess the answer to your question is "No"... Jews were never enslaved in Egypt... but the Children of Israel were.

OptimusSubprime.....

''Jews were never enslaved in Egypt... but the Children of Israel were.'' ........... This is yet another example of people using ''Jew'' to refer to the ancient Israelites. Most people don't seem to realize that the ancient Israrlites and ancient biblical folk such as Abraham, Noah, Enoch etc followed a form of monotheism that was NOT Judaism. That religion isn't even known by a name accepted by Jews and Christians. The followers of this religion were the ancestors of those who founded Judaism, but were not Jews themselves. Interesting subject for a different thread.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Very interesting thread Flyers, S+F!

I think the book of exodus did indeed happen, but not quite the way it has been interpreted by theologists and many Christians.

Moses was very familiar with Egyptian military tactics and procedures. He was a prince of Egypt and like most royalty was a general as well. Pharoahs liked to keep their family in positions of power like that. If you read the book of exodus like it was a military campaign and look at Moses as leading an army instead a bunch of slaves then it makes a whole lot more sense.

I think the story of Moses parting the red sea is a good example of this. When people hear the story they always seem to think of Charleton Heston raising his staff like Gandalf and the waters parting for the Israelites to pass through while swallowing up the pursuing Egyptians.

It actually says that Moses crossed the Reed Sea, which was a marshy area around the mouth of the Nile. The Israelites fled across on foot but the pursuing Egyptian chariots could not follow. The church even knows that it is a mistranslation but said to change it now would "damage the faith." Same thing if you look at the Israelites following the pillar of fire/smoke as a military procedure. The Egyptians regularly used braziers of lit oil to lead columns of troops and keep them in order. The lid on the brazier would be half open during the day to make smoke, and fully open at night to produce a flame. This was a well known Egyptian army tactic.

Moses knew the land of Canaan was not going to be easy to invade. The place was already settled with many city states that had to be conquered before the Israelites could resettle there. Moses spent that 40 years training soldiers and equipping/drilling an army. He really was a brilliant military commander when you look at him in that context instead of the Wizard one.

reply to post by Cancerwarrior

red sea....reed sea

by the time one eliminates all the things like you mention here that are taken on faith and not true exactly
what's left?

@Cancerwarriorcret. -.........................................................................why would any man wait 40 years to raise an army? That too to take over a land that wasn't even his? Unless, of course he was guided by Higher Powers? Why would a man who enjoyed living in palaces wish to do such a thing? Moses could have spent the rest of his life in luxury, without having to lead the Israelites outside Egypt,...that too at the risk of his own life. -.........................................................................as for your statement about the egyptian army and oil lamps.. While its an interesting theory, What are your sources? Care to post them here.

Cancerwarrior
Moses spent that 40 years training soldiers and equipping/drilling an army. He really was a brilliant military commander when you look at him in that context instead of the Wizard one.

If there were Hebrews leaving Egypt in mass and they had no where to go, then they would have needed to learn how to fight and they would have needed to become a cohesive group ... AND THEY WOULD HAVE NEEDED MORE HEBREWS. Spending 40 years apart, having bunches of babies, and those babies having babies, would increase the population to a size that they could just steam roller over whoever was living the land that they wanted.

So Moses holding back for 40 years would make sense from a military tactic point of view.

Unfortunately, there is no evidence that hundreds of thousands of Hebrews left Egypt or that they were living in the desert for that amount of time. And with that many people, there would indeed be artifacts and relics left behind. Lots of them.

The story could have happened differently from the Old Testament, and through the thousands of years it had folklore attached to it to such a massive degree that the story we have now is unrecognizable from the truth. Or it might never happened. But it certainly didn't happen the way that the Old Testament says it did.

@ff..... 40 years in a desert could have produced, at best, ONE generation of men well trained enough to launch an invasion. Most probably the enemy was comprised of a few villages and towns, as opposed to a proper empire like Egypt... Which is how the Israelite refugees took over that land. The Israelites under Moses probably decimated the armies and took over the land and establishing their rule over the civilians... The massacres and atrocities recorded in the OT were most likely exagerrations. God knows best.

www.haaretz.com...

Zertal has also recently claimed to have found clay markings unique to early Israelites, around the time of the conquest of Canaan described in the Bible.

According to the Book of Joshua, the Israelites arrived at Gilgal after having crossed the Jordan River. Some researchers have claimed that Gilgal is named after the collection of stones at the site that were used during various rituals, but no archaeological evidence has been discovered to support that claim.

Since 1990, five sites shaped like human feet have been excavated in the Jordan Valley. All five date back to the early Iron Age (12th to 13th centuries B.C.E.), and their shapes indicate that they were used as communal gathering places.

Zertal said that the foot-shaped sites were used during ceremonies following the Israelites' entry into the Land of Canaan. He added that the concept of the Jewish pilgrimage to Jerusalem on three major holidays (known as "aliya la'regel" or ascending on foot) also originates from the foot-shaped sites in the Jordan Valley and Mount Ebal.

www.touregypt.net...

After the interlude of the First Intermediate Period (2200-1970 BC) Egypt started its contacts with Palestine. Mercantile relations were only interrupted from the Second Part of the 12th dynasty onwards (ca. 1900-1800 BC). This can be assessed by imports within the stratigraphy of Ezbet Rushdi and Egyptian exports to Tel Ifshar. It seems that during the late 12th dynasty the Egyptian crown granted liberal access to the town of Tell el-Dab'a (Eastern Nile Delta) which seems to have become something like a free trading town, otherwise the marked increase of settlers of Syro-Palestinian origin in the size of approx. 25,000 inhabitants cannot be explained. Whilst trading links with the Northern Levant (Byblos) dominated, during the Second Intermediate Period the main Egyptian trading partners were situated in Palestine. Finally a local dynasty appeared at Avaris/Tell el-Dab'a which took from ca. 1640-1530 BC control over all of Egypt. They are known as Hyksos. They also controlled a part of Palestine. Relations with Palestine flourished at this time. After the expulsion of the Hyksos by the Egyptian 18th dynasty, the major part of Palestine remained independent till Thutmosis III and the battle of Megiddo (ca. 1459 BC)."
(ref: "International Palestine Symposium" Article at: w07sfb.sfb.oeaw.ac.at...)

evidence in the desert
books.google.com... D0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MwyBUqXHMcqCygG5r4DQCg&ved=0CGMQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=Hebrew%20evidence%20in%20the%20desert&f=false

reply to post by FlyersFan


I think the story happened with a much smaller group of people than what your OP suggests. A few million is just too high a number to be reasonable at all. A much smaller more cohesive group would have been much more Ideal for the flight out of Egypt. A large contingent of people would have been ran down with Egyptian chariots and slaughtered. Like you said in a previous post, a group of people that large would have left some kind of evidence of living out in the desert and there is none.

www.pbs.org...

This is a good interview with a scholar named Carol Meyers who has studied the Exodus for many years.

Sometimes they were taken there as slaves. The local kings of the city-states in Canaan would offer slaves as tribute to the pharaohs in order to remain in their good graces. This is documented in the Amarna letters discovered in Egypt. So we know that there were people taken to Egypt as slaves.
There were also traders from the eastern Mediterranean who went to Egypt for commercial reasons. And there also probably were people from Canaan who went to Egypt during periods of extended drought and famine, as is reported in the Bible for Abraham and Sarah.

So Canaanites went to Egypt for a variety of reasons. They were generally assimilated—after a generation or two they became Egyptians. There is almost no evidence that those people left. But there are one or two Egyptian documents that record the flight of a handful of people who had been brought to Egypt for one reason or other and who didn't want to stay there.

Also, later on in the interview she says that:

While very few Israelites may have actually made the trek across Sinai, it becomes the national story of all Israelites and is celebrated in all kinds of ways. Their agricultural festivals become celebrations of freedom, for instance. Many aspects of a new culture emerge and are linked with the "memories" of exodus.

So to me, her theory that it was a small group of Israelites that was then adopted nationally as the Exodus story is very plausible. Then again, the Exodus is a recurring theme in many Bible stories.

It's also important to note that the Exodus is a theme that's mentioned over and over again in various parts of the Bible. And it's interesting to think about that in contrast, for example, to the early chapters in Genesis about the creation of the world and of Eve and Adam in the Garden of Eden.

Many people also think that the ancient Hebrews were really the Habiru.

en.wikipedia.org...

They were nomadic mercenaries from Canaan that lived on the Egypt-Canaan border for a few centuries as Egyptian mercenaries. There have been many theories linking them and the Hebrews of the Bible together. To me, its something else that makes more sense when you look at the Exodus as a military campaign.

reply to post by FlyersFan


reply to post by FlyersFan


well I do have a high regard for the old testament... and so I do believe that the exodus could have happened.
the Jews were fastidious with keeping record of things and even now, they have their own documents (ancient ones) that are kept in a safe place.

I do think the mass exodus of that amount of People is possible. Give a city a weeks notice of impending doom and tell them to evacuate and they, all 20 million of them... would and could. Even in these times.

double post

[ still trying to get the jist of this place, sorry!.

didn't God write on the tablets?

besides, you have to listen to, "let my people go"

that doesn't scream slaves, to me.

Cancerwarrior
I think the story happened with a much smaller group of people than what your OP suggests.

THAT is a reasonable conclusion.

If the bible version was accurate, then there would have been one or two million Hebrews living in the desert for 40 years. That's just not possible. However, a few thousand people leaving Egypt and living in the desert, moving around, for 40 years COULD. That would explain the extreme lack of any evidence.

The bible version seems like some serious folk lore could be going on.
Take a small thing that happened and build up a bunch of fantastical storytelling around it.

FlyersFan

Cancerwarrior
I think the story happened with a much smaller group of people than what your OP suggests.

THAT is a reasonable conclusion.

If the bible version was accurate, then there would have been one or two million Hebrews living in the desert for 40 years. That's just not possible. However, a few thousand people leaving Egypt and living in the desert, moving around, for 40 years COULD. That would explain the extreme lack of any evidence.

The bible version seems like some serious folk lore could be going on.
Take a small thing that happened and build up a bunch of fantastical storytelling around it.

Where do you get the figure of one or two million hebrews from? Please do share.

“As the LORD commanded Moses, so he numbered them in the wilderness of Sinai”
and Numbers 2: 32 says
“These are those which were numbered of the
children of Israel by the house of their fathers: all those that were numbered of the camps throughout their hosts were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and
fifty.”


46, 500 men from Reuben.
59, 300 men from Simeon
45, 650 men from Gad
74, 600 men from Judah
54, 400 men from Issachar
57, 400 men from Zebulun
40, 500 men from Ephraim
32, 200 men from Manasseh
35, 400 men from Benjamin
62, 700 men from Dan
41, 500 men from Asher
53, 400 men from Naphtali
603,550 Total