End this media-promoted, "kung-fu" madness!

reply to post by BASSPLYR

Hate to break this to you but most of the styles of south East Asian martial arts you refered to have plenty of empty hand kills. Go back to sera and look up jurus #1. Bet when you look at it you'll think hey that looks rather simple and lame. But that simple drill was used to train soldier for hundreds of years. It works both with a knife and empty hand the movements are nearly the same. If you know what you're looking at you'll see that there are several destructive and killing moves.

I did cover that aspect, as many were never allowed to be taught to commoners.

Picture a world where no one knew how to fight, besides maybe clenching a fist or simply slapping someone with your hand. Bludgeoning them with rocks would have come naturally to the violent inclined.

The point I was making is that when these styles passed on and became disseminated to all, freely taught to anyone who sought them out, the power was completely gone.

If I'm a dictator and my personal guards can beat you, the business owners, your family, the people that work for you, you pay me so this doesn't happen. And when you build up your personal army, that knows how to fight, suddenly the odds are even.

Chinese and Japanese histories reflect this to the extreme. Warlords who owned cities taking pay offs. Martial arts breeding out of the need to defend one's property, home, livelihood.

The roots of silat date back to hunting and yes, warfare, as do a few/a lot of martial arts, but they have evolved since then and have become self defence.

To argue otherwise is to suggest that we are still (or southeast asia) is still a warring tribal area. But in fact it was not the most effective method of warfare, it evolved as did all styles, and they stopped using silat as the enemy changed. It worked great against the Dutch but failed on the Japanese:

The traditional styles were adapted to modern combat first against the Dutch and later the Japanese. The objective was to infiltrate so close to the enemy that he could not use his rifle. During the early days of the Dutch conquest, this meant working against a single-shot musket, the objective being to avoid the first shot and then the bayonet. The Atjehnese of Sumatra developed a kicking style whereby the unique rentjong knife was held between the toes to compensate for the superior length of the rifle’s bayonet. The bayonet could be parried with either a golok or another field knife, then the rentjong was kicked into the groin. Such frontal combat could be suicidal against the Japanese in World War II, who were armed with modern repeating weapons, so Indonesians later emphasized subterfuge and assassination techniques. The night attack, stalking of sentries and stragglers, and poisoning of officials became tactics of choice. Even today, poisoning is taught at the higher levels of silat for use against one’s most dangerous enemies.

That is still omitting the fact that when it is actual war nearly every style changed or became secondary to what is being taught daily. If your opponent has spears, arrows, guns, suddenly the method of warfare changes. The hand to hand combat remains the same, but warfare (an offensive strategy) is different.

It's kind of arguing semantics here. You are learning how to be a killer, sure, fine. So tell me your kill count?

You don't see my point?

www.blackbeltmag.com...

I have met a lot of people over the years. The ones that miffed me were always the most humble. The ones that who had the most experience, knowledge, expertise, were the most humble. Perhaps because their confidence in their art. Maybe I am sensitive to boasting, not entirely sure.

If you are being taught to kill, you have to kill people. People in the military would agree. You can train as much as you want, but there is much to be said about hands on training. If you are not doing it, you are learning how to defend yourself.

Or participate in a war in case you are sent back in time?



Here's one, I was trained in sport shooting and marksmanship, long ago I gave it up, but I'm sure I still have it in me. Does that make me a deadly assassin?

The premise of the OP is that martial arts is deadly and we are teaching it to our kids, so 'it should be registered or restricted'? (Im not even sure what the point is really). I just want to see the number of deaths from all the lunatic martial arts practitioners out there.

Besides all those people my friend Sammy threw off buildings after learning Judo, he couldn't help himself…

reply to post by boncho

It's kind of arguing semantics here. You are learning how to be a killer, sure, fine. So tell me your kill count?

This is a ridiculous comment. I was taught how to accurately fire an M16 in the U.S. Army as well as how to use a bayonet effectively. Yet I don't have a single kill to my name. Just because you are taught how to kill doesn't automatically make you a killer.

the media glorifies violence, no matter how it can be inflicted...tv, comics, movies have always had the highly trained xyz's...is the 'media' promoting the kung-fu madness..or maybe we need to change terms..'hollywood', entertainment...i dont know...when i hear word 'media' i think 'news'

by showing these fictional characters doing deadly tech with just bare hands or a knife or a rolled up magazine or a pen....'media promoted madness'........the average person walking into a martial arts school trains for an average of 20 months...little johny can throw an arm bar on somebody or flip them or throw them off a curb...the only thing the media is promoting is violence..how its inflicted will change with the seasons...

Krazysh0t
reply to post by boncho

 

It's kind of arguing semantics here. You are learning how to be a killer, sure, fine. So tell me your kill count?

This is a ridiculous comment. I was taught how to accurately fire an M16 in the U.S. Army as well as how to use a bayonet effectively. Yet I don't have a single kill to my name. Just because you are taught how to kill doesn't automatically make you a killer.

Precisely my point.

The difference is shooting someone with an m16 is a sure way to kill someone. Hand to hand combat is not a sure thing. Depending on your opponent. Hence why they use guns in war.

reply to post by boncho


Improved efficiency is a result of the progress of technology. Just because swords and guns are more efficient than your bare hands doesn't automatically negate your fists as deadly weapons. Your fists are just lower on the technological pole (as in the bottom). As a result you need to be much better versed in how to use them to accomplish the same goal as with a weapon higher on the technological pole.

edit: By the way, shooting someone with an M16 isn't guaranteed to kill them. You could easily hit a limb or graze their skin.

reply to post by Krazysh0t

Improved efficiency is a result of the progress of technology. Just because swords and guns are more efficient than your bare hands doesn't automatically negate your fists as deadly weapons.

So the OP is correct then, we anyone versed in fighting should register their hands as deadly weapons.

edit: By the way, shooting someone with an M16 isn't guaranteed to kill them. You could easily hit a limb or graze their skin.

Or you could miss, is that what they taught you in boot camp or are you just not a killer. Or are you just a bad shot?

Just because swords and guns are more efficient than your bare hands doesn't automatically negate your fists as deadly weapons.

So you agree your bare hands are an inefficient way of killing someone? Nice. Exactly what I was saying. And it's good since we have about 10,000 years of history to back that up. The fellow they thawed out of the ice, he was killed with an arrowhead wasn't he, or blunt force trauma?

In any case, I conceded with weapons, yes, definitely martial arts crosses the line to from defence to attack. As that was the means of war back in the day. Hand to hand combat being defensive in nature.

reply to post by boncho


What about Dim Mac ? Hwarang Do is also a harder style of art .I myself studied under a tradition Batokukan budo from an ex police chief in Pueblo. Humility is a KEY factor in a good training.My instructor was a stickler on accuracy of movement and power.He spoke of course of CHI which I suppose could be called "mystic" but once you get it it is a real force that can be honed
A traditional instructor would weed out most aggressive types because they didn't have the dicipline to get to the first form ,they just wanted moves.Funny how they got their butts kicked in sparring.It really sounds like traditional teachers are rare most are belt salesmen who aren't sufficient for a security guard.

reply to post by swanne


This is truly one of the most ignorant posts I've seen in a long time, no offence OP.

I've taken kung fu for several years and it truly is an art form and can be used to center yourself. Breathing exercises and chi gong is nothing but a peaceful practice but with yin there is always yang.

Your master sounds horrible btw since you obviously missed the meaning of martial arts. You really only learned to kill your opponent? No breathing exercises, Tai Chi, meditation?

and any of you who are hating on kung fu are truly ignorant or are brainwashed into thinking one style is better then another. as Bruce Lee said be formless and develop you own style like water in a cup, be formless. My instructor taught the same lessons

reply to post by boncho


Who's boasting I came into the thread being sarcastic then answered questions honestly. We're all feint objective here and are saying although a martial artist probably doesn't t need to register his hand as lethal weapons it doesn't mean they themselves aren't very capable of dong so with their bare hands specially when their art is designed to to just that kill with empty hands.

Your going yeah but a unarmed human being cant kill as efficiently as a guy with a knife or a gun. We all said no really wiw what a concept.

Then because we couldn't agree that being able to kill reliably another person with your bare hands was a myth because its not as efficient as a knife you start going into Jon sequitur straw mansort of attacks cabling that were all deluded wanna bes watching way too much jet li and believing in mystical Mumbai jumbo.

To quote you earlier in this thread. Stop just stop. The ignorance is unbelievable.

reply to post by BASSPLYR


I might have mixed the OPs words in with yours, looking back Im not even sure what line I was running with. Lack of sleep

Daniel: Hey - you ever get into fights when you were a kid?

Miyagi: Huh - plenty.

Daniel: Yeah, but it wasn't like the problem I have, right?

Miyagi: Why? Fighting fighting. Same same.

Daniel: Yeah, but you knew karate.

Miyagi: Someone always know more.

Daniel: You mean there were times when you were scared to fight?

Miyagi: Always scare. Miyagi hate fighting.

Daniel: Yeah, but you like karate.

Miyagi: So?

Daniel: So, karate's fighting. You train to fight.

Miyagi: That what you think?

Daniel: [pondering] No.

Miyagi: Then why train?

Daniel: [thinks] So I won't have to fight.

Miyagi: [laughs] Miyagi have hope for you.

JDmOKI
You really only learned to kill your opponent? No breathing exercises, Tai Chi, meditation?

Of course I learned all that stuff. And quite frankly, I started having back my mental stability (higher awareness, better deductive abilities) only when I stopped using these.

Yin... Yang... magical substances that supposedly controls the whole universe. I used to believe that nonsense.

There are no less than 4 forces in the universe: Electromagnetic, nuclear, colour and gravitational. And some of us physicists are working on a fifth one.

reply to post by swanne


Well obviously you weren't doing it correctly... because I feel amazing after breathing exercises. I blame your teacher or your inability to separate logic from techniques developed for thousands of years. Yoga is based on the same concepts of these techniques.

Did you just have a horrible experience at the school or what? Kung Fu is based on inner peace and balancing Yin and Yang, with these negative feeling there has to be a positive. You learn to defend yourself and you learn about yourself. Your hatred spawns from ignorance/scientific bias, open your mind to new ideas.

Yet again I blame your teacher.

can I ask how far you studied? or did you state it in you OP already? because when you reach black belt/sash you're supposed to start over with your training, it doesn't mean you know everything.

I studied under Grandmaster Rick Ward of the Blue Ridge Kung Fu Arnis Association

reply to post by JDmOKI


I agree with you that usually after chi gong you feel great. But there is a thing called chi lock. Monk yan fan taught me about the dangers of this. Basically it's when you don't reset or put back in place the chi and kind of leave it out there hanging so to speak after a chi gong session. One day it happened to me. Felt like I had the flu everything just ached. So both of you have valid points. But I favor the argument that your teacher didn't cover that aspect with you and should consider adding that to his curriculum. Being proper usage of chi gong. It's like any other type if exercise you need to warm up and most importantly with chi gong cool down afterwards.

reply to post by JDmOKI

Well obviously you weren't doing it correctly... because I feel amazing after breathing exercises.

And I feel amazing without it.

can I ask how far you studied? or did you state it in you OP already?

Oh! You didn't read my OP?! No, it's not just something I got at school. These... studies are a part of my past. That is all I can say.

Your hatred spawns from ignorance/scientific bias, open your mind to new ideas.

There is a reason why the scientific method came into existence. Yin/yang is not an acceptable scientific theory. It is falsified by the mere nature of subatomic particles and their laws (which varies for all 4 forces), and also Einstein's Relativity. And the Copenhagen interpretation. Oh, and also the Many-World interpretation.

I studied under Grandmaster Rick Ward of the Blue Ridge Kung Fu Arnis Association

Awesome. But this isn't about you, and it isn't about me. This thread is about the potential lethality of centuries-old martial "arts". Many of them were created to literally fight armed forces, meaning they contain techniques which have the potential to kill. Yet these very techniques are now taught to children, psychopaths, ANYBODY. There is just no restriction.

Driving a car can make you dangerous. That's why car owners have to have a license to use it. Having a gun can make you dangerous. That's why gun owners have to have a licence to use it. But when it come to kung-fu, anyone can use it without any restrictions, and the big media actually pushes the fad, by emphasizing on its non-existent magical powers.

reply to post by swanne


You completely contradict yourself. You state that its "magical principles" are absurd but claim that it should be contained for its deadliness. Yet, you mock the peaceful principles of the art form through science... soooo

and if you knew anything about Kung Fu you would know the monks that used these techniques were always on the defense when fighting since offence would cause you to act emotionally and lose. Kung Fu is a peaceful art and is used for peace within, which is the reason for its development.

Kung Fu was develop to help students meditating from falling asleep and losing focus. So, an Indian monk traveling to China helped develop ways to help monks achieving balance through exercise. its origins are peaceful. Yet, you reject it simply because it destroys your argument and can't be explained through science. what a dull logical life you must live.

If you're for outlawing of registering yourself for knowing self defense I'n not really sure I can agree. how many Kung Fu,MMA, Karate deaths can you account for?

JDmOKI
reply to post by swanne

 

You completely contradict yourself. You state that its "magical principles" are absurd but claim that it should be contained for its deadliness.

Things can be lethal without being magical. I don't understand your confusion.

Kung Fu is a peaceful art and is used for peace within, which is the reason for its development.

Peace within. Hm, sure. Simulating the breaking of an opponent's arm achieves "peace within".

Kung Fu was develop to help students meditating from falling asleep and losing focus. So, an Indian monk traveling to China helped develop ways to help monks achieving balance through exercise. its origins are peaceful.

That's not even proven. Bodhidharma (wkipedia):

Traditionally Bodhidharma is credited as founder of the martial arts at the Shaolin Temple. However, martial arts historians have shown this legend stems from a 17th-century qigong manual known as the Yijin Jing.[77]
The authenticity of the Yi Jin Jing has been discredited by some historians including Tang Hao, Xu Zhen and Matsuda Ryuchi.

Source: en.wikipedia.org...

If you're for outlawing of registering yourself for knowing self defense I'n not really sure I can agree. how many Kung Fu,MMA, Karate deaths can you account for?

Ask China, Japan, Korea. There has been centuries of wars, during which martial "arts" were used to defeat armed forces. Surely you don't suggest that no one was killed in these ancient hand-to-hand combats?

reply to post by swanne


Ok, fine these crazy unbalanced Kung Fu fighters have got to be stopped. They walk down the streets and beat up everyone for no reason and meditate and balance chi gong just as a way to throw us off from their murderous intent, and its not even proven by science!

I just don't understand your vendetta against Kung Fu

reply to post by JDmOKI

I just don't understand your vendetta against Kung Fu

Because it's a lethal weapon which is taught to anyone, including psychopaths! You think psychopaths are "only in the movies"? Well there's about 3.11 millions of them in your country alone! Not all gun owners are sound of mind... you think martial "art" practitioners are any different?

reply to post by swanne


We can't let crazies dictate social policies by their behavior, the sociopaths in charge will use that to control the rest.
If you must be safe every day every moment then you were born on the wrong planet.