Chinas Nuclear Submarine Attack Plans for the USA Revealed on Chinese State Run TV

reply to post by opethPA

It is not about an invasion, it is about eliminating the competition for world leader. Don't have to invade just disable.

whywhynot
reply to post by opethPA

 

It is not about an invasion, it is about eliminating the competition for world leader. Don't have to invade just disable.

Well put and yet scenarios where someone attacks the US and nothing is done in response just aren't realistic.

This is why its called "propaganda". Every country in the world against us has plans...as we do against them.

Occasionally "releasing" them...is all part of the game.

reply to post by whywhynot
en.wikipedia.org...
and you think our subs would do nothing? we have 18 ssbn's (two of which are special ops versions)
each sub carries

Armament: 24 × Trident I C4 SLBM with up to 8 MIRVed 100 ktTNT W76 nuclear warheads each, range 4,000 nmi (7,400 km; 4,600 mi)

24x8x16=3072 warheads total with 192 independently target able warheads PER submarine with each warhead having a yield of 300-475 kiloton

so please explain to me why these billion dollar boats that contain over half of our nuclear deterrent would do nothing if the main land were attacked?the commanders have the launch codes and keys to launch independently of the chain of command in the event of a decapitation strike. its the whole point of MAD you nuke us we nuke you.its why most nuclear weapons are not used because if you use them on a nation that has nuclear capability of its own(or allies sworn to protect non nuclear nations) you invite the destruction of your nation. not to mention any nation that tries a surprise nuclear strike will find its self not only with out allies (an assumption i admit) but mostlikely nuked for its trouble
en.wikipedia.org...
TLDR nuclear war is not on the table least with the current players in the game at this time thanks to MAD

reply to post by opethPA


I think US civil defense & military planners underestimate the effect of area bombing/nuclear attack (even a very limited nuclear attack). The US population in an area under attack will respond the same way as the citizens of Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima etc etc. By underestimating that, the US defense posture becomes a bit unbalanced, a but gung ho, a bit bravado, a bit shoot from the hip and out of kilter with what the reality will actually be like. Assumptions, responses will fall by the wayside when faced with the unpredicted & unpredictable.

Like I say, once deterrence fails the game is over. Just my opinion.

I don't have a Red Dawn scenario, unfortunately.

LeBombDiggity
I don't have a Red Dawn scenario, unfortunately.

This is a sad statement..Until this point you were making at least a solid argument but by this statement I realize no amount of logic , reasoning or reality will resonate with you so keep on building your fantasy scenarios.

www.nti.org... this one talks about how china MAY have changed their NO first use policy regarding nuclear weapons but does not exactly prove they changed the policy

en.wikipedia.org...

No first use (NFU) refers to a pledge or a policy by a nuclear power not to use nuclear weapons as a means of warfare unless first attacked by an adversary using nuclear weapons. Earlier, the concept had also been applied to chemical and biological warfare. As of October 2008, China[1] and India[2] have publicly declared their commitment to no first use of nuclear weapons. NATO has repeatedly rejected calls for adopting NFU policy,[3] arguing that preemptive nuclear strike is a key option.[citation needed] In 1993, Russia dropped a pledge given by the former Soviet Union not to use nuclear weapons first.[4] In 2000, a Russian military doctrine stated that Russia reserves the right to use nuclear weapons "in response to a large-scale conventional aggression".[5]

so it seems india and china are the only two who say they wont use them first,but it MAY be changing for china.

thediplomat.com...

reply to post by RalagaNarHallas


You are not thinking about the scenario that I presented. In it I answered your question. The US President must authorize the launch if he is still in command. An EMP attack on the West Coast would not eliminate command and control. A no response scenario is very possible if China played it this way.

reply to post by opethPA


I don't think hesitation under attack is fantasy. I think it's reality. The effect of a sudden bolt from the blue nuclear attack, even on a small scale, would be quite stunning even for a nation which has spent 50 years preparing for such an eventuality. I guess I don't share your certainties.

LeBombDiggity
reply to post by opethPA

 

I don't think hesitation under attack is fantasy. I think it's reality. The effect of a sudden bolt from the blue nuclear attack, even on a small scale, would be quite stunning even for a nation which has spent 50 years preparing for such an eventuality. I guess I don't share your certainties.

Fair enough..
Please tell me how a sudden bolt from the blue nuclear attack happens?
I think one possible way would be the Govt saying to a country "sure come nuke half of the US and we won't do anything"

reply to post by FlyersFan


You'd think with China's proximity to Japan they'd be far more worried about the continued worsening fallout & rapidly deteriorating situation in Fukushima than with publicizing their nuclear subs attack plans on the USA.

Then again, maybe they are...

Bigburgh

ketsuko
reply to post by MysterX

 

That's sort of what I was thinking. It was either a signal that they intend to move in the Pacific and are warning us not to interfere and/or it was our first call from the collection agency.

This is a good point.but other than nuclear annihilation. If they intend to collect dedt. It would be a double lose. Their homeland. And the ports on the west coast that they own.

Yeah, but remember who's running the show now and how it easy it was to get him to blink in Syria. Now, granted, I'm not entirely displeased they backed off over that, but they never should have jumped straight to "bomb Syria" as a first option to begin with, but then, they let Russia intimidate them and run rings around them and basically make them look like fools.

What do you think the Chinese are telling themselves? Likely, they're pushovers and let's take advantage of the situation to grab power for ourselves in the Pacific.

opethPA
Fair enough..
Please tell me how a sudden bolt from the blue nuclear attack happens?
I think one possible way would be the Govt saying to a country "sure come nuke half of the US and we won't do anything"

We're talking on different levels. You're considering defense postures, government positions & the conventions we've lived with during and after the Cold War.

I'm talking more on a human level & how people might react when faced with having to make the most terrible decision of their lives, whether to use nuclear weapons. Especially for people lower down the command chain, people who would never in their worst nightmares have anticipated being caught up in such a terrible situation.

I think human instinct, when faced with such things, would be to hesitate. I think the military response might be to pause & wait for direction from the civilian authorities. But all that depends on who survives the attack, how quickly civilian authority can be restored, lines of succession etc. All that against a nation in absolute chaos, cities burning, fallout spreading throughout, hospitals overwhelmed by casualties, food shortages, looting etc etc.

Tbh I'm not sure whether the US military still has pre-delegated authority to use nuclear weapons in a "launch on warning" type scenario or what their plans are if the chain of command is taken out by an attack. We're both assuming a lot.

reply to post by LeBombDiggity


That's all assuming that our birds wouldn't be in the air before theirs hit. Their subs could probably strike pretty quickly and get some shock value which is why they released this graphic, but any ballistic missiles would have a pretty long flight time. Shock could be overcome in that time, and if it isn't, then we put the wrong people in place to do that job because, frankly, they'll literally be sacrificing all of us.

reply to post by whywhynot


Indeed and more so if there are vested interests inside the American Government that want to see a complete restructuring of the political and cultural meme currently in place.

opethPA

whywhynot
reply to post by opethPA

 

It is not about an invasion, it is about eliminating the competition for world leader. Don't have to invade just disable.

Well put and yet scenarios where someone attacks the US and nothing is done in response just aren't realistic.

Obama really doesn't like America and like all leftists, he believes we should be knocked a peg or two down. He will do like he did with Benghazi and tell us that he'll do everything he can to make sure that China pays, but in the end, nothing will get done. And people will be so busy scrambling to survive that they'll likely let it go by. No one cares about what really happened in Benghazi.

I guess china hasn't figured out that America mastered the usage and design of this thing called a ssn. And each one of their boomers probably have one under hauling them right now and have been for a while.

Although they have pulled stunts like surface in the middle of a American fleet and figured they got away with it. I doubt they did though. We probably watched them the whole time and didn't do anything because it could show our hand and give them an inkling about the stuff they have no inkling over that the us navy has for just those sorts of situations.

You can say letting them do that is a liability but really wtf are they really going to do other than nothing. ##SNIPPED##

reply to post by FlyersFan

It's no secret or at least it shouldn't be that both Russia and China covet North/South America for its natural resources. Russia being their not so secret partner in any planned pre-emptive attack. With the US out of the way the world would be their oyster. I mean who could stop them. Fortunately,I use this word loosely,our ability to strike back even if they launched first would be the end game for those countries as well. With all food production,hospitals,utilities,medicines and so forth no longer available how long would the survivors last. Even with bunkers. Radiation running rampant, missiles fired containing horrid mutated germs and viruses,chemicals released that destroy lungs instantly with one breath and Nuclear winter being a likely consequence. Is this a future China wants with their Russian pals? Well they might not have a choice. At the rate they are destroying their own environments to the point it will no longer support its own people it won't be long until North America and South America look pretty good even after a Nuclear exchange.

reply to post by BASSPLYR

Besides say " ohhh. We catch big American freet with DDR pant down, if we wealy wan to we could beat up big American buwlee. ". I dunno sometimes the Chinese live in fairy tale land with their martial understanding

Goodness, history has no record of a naval fleet being caught with its pants down. (Face palm and walks off)

reply to post by whywhynot


im no fan of obama by far but to think he would stand by and do nothing is asinine,and IF he did do nothing we would have a coup the military would execute him then it would get really scary for a bit for a lot of places as NO one wants a coup to happen to America.and again re your scenario the subs dont need permission to launch they can do so on their own more so in the event of attack on the home land(you dont think a sub commander would launch every thing he had when he found out his wife and kids and all their family were incinerated in nuclear fire?)

en.wikipedia.org...-man_rule two people are needed to launch a SLBM and it goes mostly the same for land based ICBM"S if the xo and the captain decide to launch they launch,granted if they did so on their own with out an attack on the homeland or by violating the chain of command they are soooooooooo screwed its not even funny. but to my knowledge there is nothing that can stop the launch if the holders of they keys concur and decide to launch and per your scenario if they were to find out the president was not ordering a counter strike they could on their own initiative launch all of their SLBM's assuming they were both in agreement (further reading at the link below this clarifies it firther as possibly needing as many as 30 to concur on board the submarine)

books.google.com... mfflfh&sig=BgxTfQKZ_4QNCtJBdKclEli_MhA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hjx0UsupI8S5igKw4IDYAQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=when%20can%20a%20nuclear%20submarine%20captain %20decide%20to%20launch%20his%20SLBMS&f=false

i can not post a snippet from this source as it wont let me highlight texts but its from a book on page 508 on the dangers posed by potential "mad men" in control of nuclear weapons and the title of the book is "The Medical implications of nuclear war"
and to compare it to the UK only the submarine commander and his XO have the codes and the route their sub will take and they do this in case the UK is eliminated
in the case of russia if your scenario were applied to them their dead mans switch (if still active,and working like it was designed to do) would automatically launch a counter attack if certain levels of radioactive isotopes were detected in the area of Moscow i think en.wikipedia.org... now i have no idea if we have our own version but if we do it would be one hell of a nasty surprise but still would require pre targeting so if some one you dont expect nukes you you could in theory launch against the wrong country.....

www.mmo-champion.com... few other interesting links