NASA Scientists to Test Warp Drive Theory

0bserver1
The thing about testing this for real I guess is that if you are the test pilot and you have to take it for a spin for one hour at light speed , you will notice that a year have past when you step out of that vehicle...

So don't do it when they say you have to test this for a week or month, because your loved one could be you grandparent...

A ship with a warp drive wouldn't be moving at a substantial speed, relative the space immediately surrounding it. I don't think there would be any significant time dilation effects, such as the 'twin paradox'. This is where an Earth-bound person ages more rapidly than one traveling at a large fraction of the speed of light.
A global or effective speed greater than that of light, which is what a warp drive would accomplish, does not appear to work the same way as literal speed through normal space. A warp drive would apparently isolate a ship from normal space.

reply to post by Ross 54


Time dilation is a seriously NOT understood phenomenon. There are other natural "effects" / phenomenon which may tend to cancel time dilation at velocities near or in excess that of light.

Factors such Doppler effect, and Inertial Frame-dragging may have effects on the "local clock" and offset time dilation to some degree. But, that is yet another way of achieving the same thing; "effective virtual space warp".

Terrestrial Science is going that there is a whole new science / physics at extreme velocity, one that relativity can't predict, but may have been predicted by Heim Space.

SIGH! I wonder what the american government has been doing out in the nevada desert the last 60 odd years......

Never A straight Answer is working on light particles.

EarthCitizen07
SIGH! I wonder what the american government has been doing out in the nevada desert the last 60 odd years......

Never A straight Answer is working on light particles.

Back on page 2 I posted a video: "non-existent off-world hardware"; that would pretty much be what yall are askin' about.

bad click

0bserver1
The thing about testing this for real I guess is that if you are the test pilot and you have to take it for a spin for one hour at light speed , you will notice that a year have past when you step out of that vehicle...

So don't do it when they say you have to test this for a week or month, because your loved one could be you grandparent...

1. There is no engine, vehicle or pilot. What is being talked about is a photon of light.

2. If these were scaled up there would be no time dilation involved since the traveller would not be travelling at relativistic speeds, the space around them would be. Big difference.

3. There would likely be a warp probe before any living human ever got into a warp ship.

Ross 54

0bserver1
The thing about testing this for real I guess is that if you are the test pilot and you have to take it for a spin for one hour at light speed , you will notice that a year have past when you step out of that vehicle...

So don't do it when they say you have to test this for a week or month, because your loved one could be you grandparent...

A ship with a warp drive wouldn't be moving at a substantial speed, relative the space immediately surrounding it. I don't think there would be any significant time dilation effects, such as the 'twin paradox'. This is where an Earth-bound person ages more rapidly than one traveling at a large fraction of the speed of light.

Exactly.

JadeStar

thruthseek3r

JadeStar

thruthseek3r

NASA is not a military agency. If it was they'd be getting a crapload more money and would not have to shut down science programs left and right due to budget cuts (which never seem to affect the black budget by the way).

Well, from my knowledge, NASA, has it's origin from NACA

From the NACA wikipedia page here is a quote:

The National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA) was a U.S. federal agency founded on March 3, 1915, to undertake, promote, and institutionalize aeronautical research. On October 1, 1958, the agency was dissolved, and its assets and personnel transferred to the newly created National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA).

I could be wrong, but from this, I see NASA as being from military origins indirectly of course, but this is part of its history doesn't it?

Thruthseek3r

You would be wrong. NACA was a civilian organization, the FAA came out of it too. No one would argue that the FAA is a military organization.

The National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA) was a U.S. federal agency founded on March 3, 1915, to undertake, promote, and institutionalize aeronautical research. On October 1, 1958, the agency was dissolved, and its assets and personnel transferred to the newly created National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA). NACA was pronounced as individual letters, rather than as an acronym.

edit on 30-10-2013 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)

What about this quote from Wikipedia :

NACA began as an emergency measure during World War I to promote industry/academic/government coordination on war-related projects. It was modeled on similar national agencies found in Europe. Such agencies were the French “L’Etablissement Central de l’Aérostation Militaire” in Meudon (now Office National d'Etudes et de Recherches Aerospatiales), the German “Aerodynamical Laboratory of the University of Göttingen” and the Russian “Aerodynamic Institute of Koutchino”. However, the most influential agency upon which the NACA was based was the British “Advisory Committee for Aeronautics”.

"L’Etablissement Central de l’Aérostation Militaire" translate in english to "The establishment of the Central Military Aerostation". So in it's origin N.A.C.A. has some military inspiration as quoted earlier, does not mean it is all military owned, this would be another topic for discussion which is outside the realm of this thread.

Overall it seems a bit military to me, but what is going on behind the curtain that NASA does not show to the general public, this is the big question.



Thruthseek3r

You went to a French wikipedia page for the history of an American agency? That's grasping. Not to mention wikipedia itself is weak support. You don't have to go to Wikipedia for this stuff anyway, it's a fact that NACA was a civilian agency, so is NASA and so is the FAA. So is the Post Office for that matter. All at some point had a relationship with the military but that does not make them military agencies.


Your microwave oven was "inspired by military radar" so by your logic it is a military device.

Nope, that is not the case concerning the french wikipedia page. Actually I was on the english one, but the name was written in french, here is the quote:

NACA began as an emergency measure during World War I to promote industry/academic/government coordination on war-related projects. It was modeled on similar national agencies found in Europe. Such agencies were the French “L’Etablissement Central de l’Aérostation Militaire” in Meudon (now Office National d'Etudes et de Recherches Aerospatiales), the German “Aerodynamical Laboratory of the University of Göttingen” and the Russian “Aerodynamic Institute of Koutchino”. However, the most influential agency upon which the NACA was based was the British “Advisory Committee for Aeronautics”.

As you can see, it is written in french and I am assuming it is because it is the real name of the organization which is in french.

Here is the link to the Wikipedia page: NACA

Here is another quote from the same page:

On January 14, 1958, Dryden published "A National Research Program for Space Technology," which stated:[9] “ It is of great urgency and importance to our country both from consideration of our prestige as a nation as well as military necessity that this challenge (Sputnik) be met by an energetic program of research and development for the conquest of space.... It is accordingly proposed that the scientific research be the responsibility of a national civilian agency working in close cooperation with the applied research and development groups required for weapon systems development by the military. The pattern to be followed is that already developed by the NACA and the military services.... The NACA is capable, by rapid extension and expansion of its effort, of providing leadership in space technology.

Concerning the part that Wikipedia is a poor source, I would not say it this way. It is true everyone can re-write on this website, but it has also its' very own sources for some of the quotes which can later be verified. If one is to make a quick search, one is to find it simply.



Thruthseek3r

JadeStar

2. If these were scaled up there would be no time dilation involved since the traveller would not be travelling at relativistic speeds, the space around them would be. Big difference.

Speculation!

Firstly; Just how is any movement at all, not relativistic? And, time dilation depends on two main factors; velocity and mass.

Problem is: if I exist I have mass, if I move, I have relativistic velocity. This is true even IF I am in a "warp bubble". Movement of warp bubble constitutes movement of its contents.

Or perhaps that "warp bubble" somehow makes you not exist?

tanka418

JadeStar

2. If these were scaled up there would be no time dilation involved since the traveller would not be travelling at relativistic speeds, the space around them would be. Big difference.

Speculation!

Firstly; Just how is any movement at all, not relativistic? And, time dilation depends on two main factors; velocity and mass.

Problem is: if I exist I have mass, if I move, I have relativistic velocity. This is true even IF I am in a "warp bubble". Movement of warp bubble constitutes movement of its contents.

Or perhaps that "warp bubble" somehow makes you not exist?

edit on 1-11-2013 by tanka418 because: (no reason given)

At low velocities, less than a fairly large fraction of the speed of light, relativistic time dilation effects are so small as to be unimportant, in most instances. GPS satellites are an exception to this. They must maintain an extremely accurate time base to give accurate positional information. Relativistic corrections are applied to their signals
Since a space warp can apparently isolate an object within it from the rest of the universe, It does not seem that its mass would be subject to gravity or inertia. Movement of the warp field does not appear to require movement of an object within it, anymore that a radio transmitter tower must move to send radio waves extending out from itself.

Ross 54
Since a space warp can apparently isolate an object within it from the rest of the universe, It does not seem that its mass would be subject to gravity or inertia. Movement of the warp field does not appear to require movement of an object within it, anymore that a radio transmitter tower must move to send radio waves extending out from itself.

A "warp field" isolating or insulating anything from anything else?!? You got some evidence on that? Any real data at all?

If I am in Earth orbit at 5pm Nov. 1, 2013 and I give the command "Sirius star system, and step on it". I arrive at Sirius just 8 .5 hours later. I have traveled much farther than light can in that time; actually something near 1 ly/hr. Sorta speedy. Now, perhaps I never moved in relation to my warp field, but I did move rather significantly relative to Earth. OH MY!!!!! Relativity just crept in didn't it!

Fortunately at those velocities, time dilation no longer applies, there is a new physics. And, warp field or no we will follow those laws.

How a warp drive would work is entirely in the realm of theory at the moment, of course. I note that Dr. Harold White, who is probably the leading expert in this field, has written on the consequences of warp field theory. He has explained that inside a properly functioning warp field there would be no sense of acceleration.
We already know from General Relativity that gravity and acceleration are not distinguishable, both arising from the curvature of space-time. He has also found that there would be no relativistic time dilation effects, as a result of travel via a space warp.
I think it is a fair statement to make that a mass that experiences the effects of neither inertia, gravity, or relativistic time dilation is, in any meaningful sense of the terms, isolated from the universe. Link to Dr. White's statement on these topics:ntrs.nasa.gov...

tanka418

JadeStar

2. If these were scaled up there would be no time dilation involved since the traveller would not be travelling at relativistic speeds, the space around them would be. Big difference.

Speculation!

Firstly; Just how is any movement at all, not relativistic? And, time dilation depends on two main factors; velocity and mass.

Problem is: if I exist I have mass, if I move, I have relativistic velocity. This is true even IF I am in a "warp bubble". Movement of warp bubble constitutes movement of its contents.

Or perhaps that "warp bubble" somehow makes you not exist?

edit on 1-11-2013 by tanka418 because: (no reason given)

The answer is that the space and -time- around you would also be warped. See what I mean? You have to think of your frame of reference being suspended outside of 4 dimensions (3 space + 1 time) rather than just the 3 dimensions of space.

Space/Time are the same thing remember. Relativity.

Don't blame us. Blame him:

JadeStar

The answer is that the space and -time- around you would also be warped. See what I mean? You have to think of your frame of reference being suspended outside of 4 dimensions (3 space + 1 time) rather than just the 3 dimensions of space.

Space/Time are the same thing remember. Relativity.

Space and time most assuredly are not the same thing. Space is the only real infinite, and time is a side effect of movement within space.

Actually, if One were to build a starship with such a drive system; the ship itself would have to remain in a linear region of space. Otherwise systems on the ship would be incapable of operation due to sub-systems residing in a different "space/time zone" as other sub-systems. Rendering the overall system inoperable.

Yes, outside the normal 4 dimensions, and on into Heim Space; but Albert had little to do with that.

tanka418

JadeStar

The answer is that the space and -time- around you would also be warped. See what I mean? You have to think of your frame of reference being suspended outside of 4 dimensions (3 space + 1 time) rather than just the 3 dimensions of space.

Space/Time are the same thing remember. Relativity.

Space and time most assuredly are not the same thing. Space is the only real infinite, and time is a side effect of movement within space.

Incorrect. I guess you aren't familiar with the results of Gravity Probe B. The geodetic effect and frame dragging are no longer a debate. They are proven facts.


Ker Than
for National Geographic News
Published May 5, 2011

Two key predictions of Albert Einstein's general theory of relativity have been confirmed by NASA's Gravity Probe B mission, scientists announced this week.


"We've completed this landmark experiment testing Einstein's universe, and Einstein survives," principal investigator Francis Everitt, of Stanford University in California, said during a press briefing.


Launched in 2004, the Gravity Probe B mission used four ultraprecise gyroscopes—devices used to measure orientation—housed in a satellite to measure two aspects of Einstein's theory about gravity.

The first is the geodetic effect, which is the warping of space and time—or spacetime—around a gravitational body, such as a planet.

One common way to visualize the geodetic effect is to think of Earth as a bowling ball and spacetime as a trampoline. Earth's gravity warps spacetime the same way a bowling ball weighs down the middle of a trampoline.

The second effect of gravity tested by Gravity Probe B is frame dragging, which is the amount that a spinning object pulls the fabric of spacetime along with it.



news.nationalgeographic.com...

en.wikipedia.org...


Einstein was correct, Space and Time are the same thing and warped by gravity, in this case the Earth's gravity.

Gravity = effect of mass, mass warps space/time. It's simple.

BTW: Your GPS wouldn't work if Einstein was wrong about relativity. Nor would nuclear weapons.

And it is how a warp drive, if it is every built, will work. No "new physics" needed.

As for Heim, most of what got people excited seemed to dry up after 2007-2009 when some tests did not verify the claims made.

Additionally... "The majority of physicists have never heard of Heim theory, and most of those contacted by New Scientist said they couldn't make sense of Dröscher and Häuser's description of the theory behind their proposed experiment...The general consensus seems to be that Dröscher and Häuser's theory is incomplete at best...it has not passed any normal form of peer review."

That doesn't mean Heim like Reich won't be referred to in psuedoscience literature but I prefer to deal in reality than most of that stuff.

reply to post by JadeStar


Yes I know about the Gravity probes...

So the European space agency deals in "psudo-science"? You'll have to provide sources!

I'm not too surprised that many Physicists don't know Heim. But, I find many of todays scientists to be nearly as illogical as everybody else. For instance, it seems to be generally thought, even by Terrestrial science, that ET is millions of years more advanced, and that ET can travel here from anywhere. Neither is true.

Most ETs encountered here on Earth are barely more advanced that Earth, and don't travel more than a handful of light years to get here. Zeta Reticuli, at 39 ly is one of the most distant. They only discovered Earth about 600 years ago, and, at that time, atmospheric operations seem to have been carried out by fuel burning craft.

About space and time being the same...please exercise a wee bit of logic. In the grand scheme of things; space appeared long before time could exist. Time could only become when there was measurable movement.

tanka418
reply to post by JadeStar

 

Yes I know about the Gravity probes...

So the European space agency deals in "psudo-science"? You'll have to provide sources!

I'm not too surprised that many Physicists don't know Heim. But, I find many of todays scientists to be nearly as illogical as everybody else. For instance, it seems to be generally thought, even by Terrestrial science, that ET is millions of years more advanced, and that ET can travel here from anywhere. Neither is true.

Most ETs encountered here on Earth are barely more advanced that Earth, and don't travel more than a handful of light years to get here. Zeta Reticuli, at 39 ly is one of the most distant. They only discovered Earth about 600 years ago, and, at that time, atmospheric operations seem to have been carried out by fuel burning craft.

About space and time being the same...please exercise a wee bit of logic. In the grand scheme of things; space appeared long before time could exist. Time could only become when there was measurable movement.

If space appeared long before time could exist, how could it have been 'long before', which is itself a description of a passage of time? If time could only become when there was measurable movement, it can also be said that this movement requires time within which to occur. This seems to imply that time and space came into being together. Since they seem wholly contingent on one another, describing them as one thing, spacetime, seems quite reasonable.
The idea that extraterrestrial races are typically much older and more advanced than we are also appears quite reasonable. Our Sun seems to be a relative latecomer. The average age of stars in our galaxy appears to be about one billion years older than ours.
Having said that, it is quite possible that we might first meet, or be visited by ET races much nearer our own age. We would very probably have more in common with and be more interesting to a race a few hundred or a few thousand years ahead of us, than something a billion years our senior.
Given the long history of increasing human mobility and territorial expansion, I would be very hesitant to place a limit on how far and how fast a sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial race could travel.

Ross 54
If space appeared long before time could exist, how could it have been 'long before', which is itself a description of a passage of time? If time could only become when there was measurable movement, it can also be said that this movement requires time within which to occur. This seems to imply that time and space came into being together. Since they seem wholly contingent on one another, describing them as one thing, spacetime, seems quite reasonable.

In this case "long before" is more of a conceptual "long before".

A wee bit of metaphysics;

At first there was "nothing", when understood this nothing becomes infinite space, though sterile this becomes the basis of possible "vibration" (see Hermes).

The point manifests, Positive, yet undefinable.

Through reflection it becomes two, each distinguishable from the other.

A third point becomes, distinguishable from 2 others. Note; this is the first point in the "creation" that movement is even detectable. When we had two points we had no way of knowing if either had moved. So, while movement may have been possible, it was undetectable, and thus still non-existent.

At this point we encounter a "ring-pass-not" a sort of region that inhibits the passage of data in either direction. It separates the Ideal from the actual.

So now we have something defined by three points; matter. Now we have something that can move, and we are able to detect that movement. Now, and not before, we can have "Time".

Time and space cannot be the same; Time required space and matter to begin to exist; Space requires nothing (Space IS nothing).

The idea that extraterrestrial races are typically much older and more advanced than we are also appears quite reasonable. Our Sun seems to be a relative latecomer. The average age of stars in our galaxy appears to be about one billion years older than ours.

Actually it seems that stars over the age of around 6 billion have no life. At least there are no mythical ETs from stars that old. Zeta Reticuli is only about 3 billion years (or extremely old...depending). I would say that Sol, Earth has been held back. There have been near extinction event throughout Earth's history.

Another issue is that astronomers seem to have difficulty determining the actual age of many stars.

Having said that, it is quite possible that we might first meet, or be visited by ET races much nearer our own age. We would very probably have more in common with and be more interesting to a race a few hundred or a few thousand years ahead of us, than something a billion years our senior.
Given the long history of increasing human mobility and territorial expansion, I would be very hesitant to place a limit on how far and how fast a sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial race could travel.

Yes, absolutely; significantly greater probability that ET is from near by. In fact, the further the civilization the less probable 'current' contact becomes. Consider this: Around 8000 years ago there was a colonization attempt here on Earth. This occurred in three prime areas; Egypt, Sumer, and India. According to ancient reports they flew in chemical powered craft. The interesting thing with these guys is that all indications say they're from Sirius / Orion. A star that's too young and a constellation that is, for the most part, composed of stars that are too far away.

The next major encounter was around 600 years ago. Reports of air combat from Europe, and other evidence indicates that these two factions both flew, again, in chemical power craft. To day they fly in craft with only slightly improved technology; I say it only slightly improved because, scientifically, everything ET does Terrestrial science can explain or simulate with new(er) or novel science and technologies.

It is my opinion that current terrestrial science / technology is capable of creating a starship, now, with primarily "off-the-shelf" technologies, capable of exploring space within say 15 - 20 light years.

I think, for now, we might want to place distance limits on things. I'm not so convinced that Earth is "late" in any of this, though I do believe that Earth has been tampered with in regards scientific and technological, and perhaps social progress and evolution. Terrestrial technology has been held back, deliberately, nearly 2000 years, much of it is documented in history.

If a warp drive can expand and contract the space between the stars at speeds faster than light, it could also be a means of super-luminal communication. If space is expanded opposite the direction of travel it would presumably accelerate the stray, minute particles in space in that direction, at a comparable speed. These would presumably be detectable at stellar distances as an energetic flux.
I wonder if we might have already detected this, not realizing what we were actually observing. Our own warp drive experiments, if successful, might already have, or be about to announce to the galaxy that we will be out among the stars in the not too distant future.