Was ancient man schizophrenic? Voice of God and Jayne's "bicameral mind"

reply to post by poet1b


I don't agree with this theory. I more favor the theories surrounding the use of Ayahuasca/'___' in the ancient world. It causes hallucinations and in many cases makes you feel as though you're in contact with a god like figure or in a heavenly world. It grows all through the middle east,Africa and south America. And has been smoked,drank and ate for thousands of years along with many other hallucinogenic plants.It was more or less used daily and as the world's predominant religion started to become Christianity people began to use less and less of these plants. Which would explain why world leaders stopped hearing the voices of a god or god's telling them what to do.
Seems a little more realistic to me.

reply to post by ntech


Jayne also references the bible.

From the link in the Op.

www.thecrimson.com...

"Man is liberated by consciousness," Jaynes says, but the resulting loss of some god as a constant companion and adviser creates new dilemmas that modern man must face. "Without the gods to tell us what to do, problems of ethics and of identity" abound, Jaynes says. "Man hungers to get back the lost voices," and in modern society these primordial yearnings persist in churchgoing and the desire to serve God."

And we seem to have lost purpose.

When we see motto's such as "He who dies with the most toys win", clearly we are lost.

KellyPrettyBear

bigfatfurrytexan
The internal dialogue is still there. We just control both aspects of it now.

As mentioned previously, in this line of thought you can see how speech could have forced a change in our brains. Once speech was the mechanism of the internal dialogue, there was a schizm in the mind that became apparent.

But that aside, we still have our internal dialogue.

An excerpt from something I wrote on my blog awhile back:

In this vein, I declare that dogs are highly intelligent beings. Just not in the way we would normally classify. But their ability to process the massive inputs of sensory data related to smell and hearing (standing out among their other 3 normal senses), combined with the increased snesory input from organs such as whiskers, and organs on their paws, increases the workload on a brain that is notably smaller than ours.

I think the key difference here is that dogs are not prone to abstract thought. They are very concrete. The difference being, concrete thought is “here and now”, whereas abstract thought involves conceptualizing the future and making plans around it. This is not something a dog is prone to, although you will see it on occasion.

A good example of this is that most dogs (not all) are very poor at identifying human intent while pointing. If you point at something, they tend to just look at the end of your finger. Some hunting breeds, when in rural areas, may develop such abstract thinking skills (as a by product of rural, hunting life).

I say all of that to get to my point: i have been pondering this difference in thinking, trying to understand a dogs mind more. Trying to figure out how to think like a dog, if you will I think it would be a great exercise in probing my own consciousness.

Today it occured to me what the difference is: the internal dialogue.

All animals have communication. One form or another, they communicate with each other. However, in most animals it is a mix of noise meant to convey a concept, or a scent conveying some information, or maybe a flashy visual cue. The point is, the communication does not provide for deeper concepts. Everything is kind of precanned, with maybe only a couple thousand different expressions possible.

Language, however, allows intricate expression of varied concepts. You don’t have to know a whole lot to start stringing words together.

This is key in how humans thinking differs from other animals. Maybe not all other animals, as dolphins seem to have a well developed language too. But this language skill gives us an ability to take our penchant for abstract thought and apply a linear framework to it.

When you think, you think by “talking” to yourself with an internal dialogue. Maybe its your voice, maybe its not even a voice. Some people think in words that are spelled out visually. Like, instead of listening to an internal narrator, they are reading an internal ticker tape.

Regardless, this is the key difference. This internal dialogue allows a concentration on a linear thought process. Of course, tangential thought has some benefits. But it just does not allow you to think and plan, nor to delve deep topics that require logic.

And logic, truly, is the creme de la creme of linear thought. If you have the ability to think in a linear manner, you have the ability to apply logic to problems, and find solutions.

This is also the key “thought module” that allows for mathmatical skill. And the scientific method.

"The internal dialogue is still there. We just control both aspects of it now."

An excellent observation.

I myself like to use religious metaphor to say something similar. Language
is the tree of good and evil. The 'good' can be logic. The 'evil' is the
proliferation of symbols in the mind, which eventually choke out
all useful communication with the portions of the brain/mind
which don't use those particular symbols.

KPB

Except it isn't evil....but that seems accurate in my estimation. The dog most certainly doesn't consider us by speaking words in its head. Instead, it considers us by seeing us symbolically. Words are just sounds. And I am sure dogs also utilize sounds as internal thoughts. And smells. The memory of smell is very powerful, even to us.

Thinking with words, however....that is a very abstract notion. It is unfortunate in that you then limit your thoughts to your vocabulary (or ability to coin new words for yourself). But the benefit is in the ability to arrange and connect words to concepts. Very powerful.

In your metaphor, "evil" is a word to describe the return to this kind of mindset. It absolutely is not beneficial to anyone...but not quite evil. Having said that, I would bet in the vernacular of the ancient mystic, "evil" might be a good description.

reply to post by poet1b


This mirrors my belief. Your brain is a modem recieving the signal of consciousness. Your brains configuration (i.e., physical limitations and neurochemical composition) are what limits the ability to clearly resolve the "signal". This is highly metaphorical, obviously.

The body has two functions. First, provide sensory input to the brain for processing by consciousness. Second, be a self contained unit to maintain sustained inflow of sensory information (basically, keep itself alive). That is what your vessel does for you.

Behind the haze of cosmic TCP/IP lies a consciousness, peering out through your eyes.

reply to post by Cumingsj


Interesting, but this change of consciousness supposedly happened long before Christianity.

Dionysus was a very popular god around the time Christ lived. The god of wine, and celebration.

From wiki en.wikipedia.org...

His origins are uncertain, and his cults took many forms

In its fully developed form, his central cult imagery shows his triumphant, disorderly arrival or return, as if from some place beyond the borders of the known and civilized. His procession (thiasus) is made up of wild female followers (maenads) and bearded satyrs with erect penises. Some are armed with the thyrsus, some dance or play music. The god himself is drawn in a chariot, usually by exotic beasts such as lions or tigers, and is sometimes attended by a bearded, drunken Silenus. This procession is presumed to be the cult model for the human followers of his Dionysian Mysteries. In his Thracian mysteries, he wears the bassaris or fox-skin, symbolizing a new life. Dionysus is represented by city religions as the protector of those who do not belong to conventional society and thus symbolizes everything which is chaotic, dangerous and unexpected, everything which escapes human reason and which can only be attributed to the unforeseeable action of the gods.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


This is also the direction I am leaning in my belief system.

The living plasma dimension invisible to us.

www.plasmacosmology.net...

poet1b
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

What this makes me wonder, is if, we went through some change, that disconnected us from our higher selves.

In ancient tales, the gods were once amongst us, and then they were gone.

Maybe a kind of field that is usable to the spiritual ones got weaker but it can be restored again. Do not know who made the barrier if it was the humans or the spirits (my guess is that it is a little bit of both).

Does it matter. Some people talk about the three waves of souls that have been born here to change and evolve this place. My guess is that the barrier to what other calls "other side" is now days weaker than before.

Not all humans where connected to what you call higher self even in the past human history as we know it if we talk about the last 6000 years (what happened before that I have no clue).

What is it you want from the gods of old? Humanity need to become self sufficient. It is time to learn to fish.

reply to post by LittleByLittle

When you look within for my point of view you look beneath the ego self to the unconscious soul that seem to be a couple of times smarter than the ego/mind. Sometimes I think we are incredible advanced spirits playing a game thinking like ants compered to what we truelly are and our potential to be.

I have thought like that myself.. lol.. like little ants. Our true potential in my opinion is noted throughout history. A super human being here on Earth and a spirit with no limits (maybe) in the spirit world.

The more that come to the light the easier it will be for all of us.

reply to post by LittleByLittle

What is it you want from the gods of old? Humanity need to become self sufficient. It is time to learn to fish.

Knowledge, of course, to help me continue to evolve.

A higher purpose would be nice. I have been thinking of late, about changing the title of my non-fiction book to "Pursuit of Purpose".

reply to post by MamaJ


I think our imperfection in this plain in which we live is what allows us to evolve. We are Gods experiment, helping him to evolve. What we learn in this life time, helps us in the next. If there is life after death, then either we recycle, until we advance/graduate from this cycle, and advance to the next, where things are even more complex.

poet1b
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

What is it you want from the gods of old? Humanity need to become self sufficient. It is time to learn to fish.

Knowledge, of course, to help me continue to evolve.

A higher purpose would be nice. I have been thinking of late, about changing the title of my non-fiction book to "Pursuit of Purpose".

What kind of evolution/understanding are you after? The bliss? Seeing the hidden reality? Helping peoples bodies have higher level of possibility to heal themselves? Psychic abilities? Being an empath? Lucid dreaming?

they ate alot of strange things with mold on it in thoses days that caused brain alternating behavior

reply to post by LittleByLittle


it is unfortunate that this conversation turned into talk of "evolving" and "higher self". Not saying it has no place here...just that I was hoping for a deeper probe of consciousness.

Although you didn't ask me that question, and I didn't really answer your question.

bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

it is unfortunate that this conversation turned into talk of "evolving" and "higher self". Not saying it has no place here...just that I was hoping for a deeper probe of consciousness.

Although you didn't ask me that question, and I didn't really answer your question.

I do not know if you can make a distinction between consciousness and spirit/unconsciousness.

For instance I am a person that is surrounded by very synchronous events where if I let my unconsciousness decide when to look at clocks see patterns of numbers that are multiples of 11 or mirrors (started with the 11:11 phenomenon). But if I look for the time with my mind saying now I am gonna look at the clock do not get the patterns. It is like my unconsciousness and consciousness are playing a game of look what I can show you if you let me.

And those synchronous events sometimes touch people around me. One example is my mother who could always get me to come home for food when I was younger, by just thinking my name and it is time to come home for food and I would appear with my own reasons why I came home at that moment.

But now we are getting into the world of limited telepathy and limited intent changing the reality around us (using synchronicity to benefit yourself and others).

reply to post by LittleByLittle


I am not opposed to PSI at all. Matter of fact, I am a firm believer in the concept.

But it could just be something as simple as the fractal nature of our universe being seen in our behaviors. We are adept at noticing patterns. So when these behavioral patterns manifest, we are bound to notice them.

Not that there isn't a spiritual "me" guiding some of this....just that the interaction with the physical in this universe would absolutely be a hurdle that the spirit "me" would have to work around. One such hurdle would be the limitations of thought capable to a being that has the rigidity imposed by the fractal nature of the universe.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


an article discussing how fractal geometry can manifest in behavioral patterns:

www.nlpu.com...

bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

I am not opposed to PSI at all. Matter of fact, I am a firm believer in the concept.

But it could just be something as simple as the fractal nature of our universe being seen in our behaviors. We are adept at noticing patterns. So when these behavioral patterns manifest, we are bound to notice them.

Not that there isn't a spiritual "me" guiding some of this....just that the interaction with the physical in this universe would absolutely be a hurdle that the spirit "me" would have to work around. One such hurdle would be the limitations of thought capable to a being that has the rigidity imposed by the fractal nature of the universe.

I have had the spiritual information come to me that have been opposite to the information my mind/ ego self/consciousness wanted to be so I can see the difference between my intention creating reality and reality telling me "what is" despite a lower level counter intention on my part.

I have once in my life been able to come to that state of being where the internal speakers was for a few seconds activated and I could hear inside my head not thru my ears. The message was clearly external and was biblical in nature. And I was at that time very anti christian faith since I only saw it from the dark it creates. I understand know that the bible has layers of understanding that are in fact very interesting to a person who seek higher level understanding of the fractal nature (As above, so below) of "all that is". . Do not judge the readers of a book and their understanding of the book as the true wisdom that can be gained from the book.

If you have not experienced the guiding then you might not have had a need for it .

And to make it clear the message intention was for me to see that even the bible contained higher level understanding. Not that it is the only source.

reply to post by LittleByLittle


Are you asking me what super power I would choose if I could have one? ;-]

How about pattern recognition?

poet1b
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

Are you asking me what super power I would choose if I could have one? ;-]

How about pattern recognition?

From my point of view your choice is very wise. How about the ability to get the information form different sources at the same time so that the patterns seem to be obvious. Train that third eye chakra (the sensor that feels pressure on the forehead).

Yup I believe those people had a connection with God some how and that God guided their steps.

What is so hard to believe about that?

You want to prove God exists or something?

Dude believe it or not, I believe He is and that He told some how its going to be.