Enoch's Dudael

a reply to: undo

Wtf?! Adam Seth Enosh Kenan Mahalalel Jared Enoch Methuselah Lamech Noah=> Man appointed mortal sorrow; The Blessed God shall come down teaching - it's Death shall bring the despairing, rest in comfort...
Now i'll be busy all day pulling my head out of my ass again.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: undo

Wtf?! Adam Seth Enosh Kenan Mahalalel Jared Enoch Methuselah Lamech Noah=> Man appointed mortal sorrow; The Blessed God shall come down teaching - it's Death shall bring the despairing, rest in comfort...
Now i'll be busy all day pulling my head out of my ass again.

what happened, where, who did it? lol
i guess i don't know why you're surprised

a reply to: undo

Well it's one thing to pray for water when you're thirsty and wandering through the desert and another when it suddenly washes over you. Just amazing and surprising, but beautiful.

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

but that doesn't address the following:

- that the gate for entrance into the area is under the euphrates river and the gated entrance is covering a place called the abyss.

The Earth is round, right? LA and Euphrates are nearly 180° apart in longitude, meaning that about 12000 km below the Euphrates you'll find the studios where your Stargate shows are made. The gate could simply be the Atlantic Ocean (which would be referred to as Atlantis to the ancient Greeks) or the different gates (straits and passes etc) you'd have to pass to get out on open ocean, like Gibraltar, the mouths of the Mesopotamian rivers, the Khyber pass, or to be allowed to travel along the Nile, travel through Bosphoros etc. all of which are literal gates to "other worlds".

Also look at the shape of the Americas, think of it as a dragon, where Greenland is the head. Then think that one day Greenland melts, and the dragon spews out water towards the British Isles (which looks somewhat like a woman with child) and Europe (with her twelve stars)....

- that the gate in question is holding back 4 angels/locust creatures, who are released from the abyss, when the gate is opened by the other angel that comes down from the sky with the key and unlocks it

You have to reread the part of Revelation you refer to. The four angels who are loosened aren't the locust-guys. That would be Abaddon in the Fifth trumpet event (Gulf war). The Sixth trumpet starts in verse 13 and is a separate event from the Fifth trumpet. Sixth Trumpet could very well be the following War on Terror. The two witnesses being the Twin Towers. The text doesn't actually say that 1/3 of the world's population is killed, only that the four angels have that intent. Having an intent of killing all Christians and Jews would mean that they would have to kill nearly 1/3rd of the world populace.

- that fire and smoke issue from the abyss gate when it's opened.

Quite a bit of smoke coming up from the oil wells Saddam's troops torched. It filled the whole sky with thick black smoke, literally turning day into night. And through the smoke came the locust, thousands of US Apache helicopters....

- that abyss derives from abzu (absu/apsu). if you don't believe me, just read what happens in enuma elish when tiamat mates with kingu instead of abzu. those beings coming out of tiamat+kingu gate would've come out of tiamat+abzu gate if enki hadn't closed it (the closing of the abzu gate is what is referred to as the killing of abzu. enki didn't kill abzu, he locked the abzu gate. cause abzu was never an actual god. it's always been the gate of the abyss. you can see a similar concept in the chaining of fenrir in norse mythos. )

I don't know the Mesopotamian lore well enough to argue here, but if Apsu/Abyss is simply the Americas, they could have forbidden people to travel over the Atlantic, or traveling the seven seas. Lock away all knowledge of the American continent and the knowledge that says the Earth is a globe and that most of their world seems to have been unmapped. The Kingu-Tiamat union is somewhat odd. Not only did Kingu kill Apsu his father, but he seems to have taken his bed and his lover too, sharing bed with his mother, Tiamat. I never understood this part and exactly what Kingu is representing. It's somewhat confusing. Anyway they all seem to be slain by Marduk at some point and hurled into Hades/Ereskigal.

- there's more than one abzu and they vary in size.

Yes, the Mesopotamian stories are rather tangled up I think. Like Wandering Scribe says, the many conflicting issues with the(se) religion(s) shifted with the political climate. As the kings conquered each other they also conquered the priesthood, and the rule seems to have been to rewrite the old stories ground up, over and over in order to favour the conquering warlords. Knowing the time and place is alfa and omega in Mesopotamian religion. Everything there seems to changes drastically over time, and rather unpredictably it seems. I wolud love to hear the Wandering Scribe's take on this.

enlil had an abyss in his e.kur temple. the e.kur temple had a heaven-earth bond.

"Enlil , holy Urac is favoured with beauty for you; you are greatly suited for the Abzu, the holy throne ; you refresh yourself in the deep underworld, the holy chamber. " (excerpt from Enlil in the E.kur)

"Enki, lord of plenty of the Anuna gods, Nudimmud, mighty one of the E-kur, strong one of heaven and earth! Your great house is founded in the Abzu, the great mooring-post of heaven and earth" (excerpt from Enki and the World Order)

the mooring post of heaven and earth is the heaven-earth bond, called the abzu (and the duranki). lol
babel means gate of god (or babilu, gate of gods). why did babel get destroyed? it was a stairway to heaven. if the idea of destroying the tower, was to keep people from getting close to the sky, he neglected to destroy much taller mts. or other ziggurat temples, for that matter. this is where enki is said to have killed abzu (the babel gate was buried by the debris of the destroyed tower)

" The lord established a shrine, a holy shrine, whose interior is elaborately constructed. He established a shrine in the sea, a holy shrine, whose interior is elaborately constructed. The shrine, whose interior is a tangled thread, is beyond understanding. The shrine's emplacement is situated by the constellation the Field, the holy upper shrine's emplacement faces towards the Chariot constellation." (excerpt from Enki and the World Order) (this is the big abzu that was in the persian gulf, now covered by the silt deposition from the euphrates river)

so how's the abzu have an emplacement in the field constellation? (the field is I.Iku, the great square of pegasus).

enki's eridu temple had a door that "snatches a man". what the sam hill kind of door is that? lol

now you got me started.

a reply to: undo

The part about God destroying the tower of Babel doesn't find support in the Bible. Genesis only claims God confused their languages, like you have noted, how in the Mesopotamian languages at some point z becomes s and b becomes p and so on, and new dialects and languages developed. And the narrative also says that the people eventually quit building on it, they simply gave up.

A ziggurat is built like a mound along a spiralling vortex (like a rolled up piece of paper and you pull out the inner corner and you get sort of a cork-screw), building it from down centre and up and for every yard or so the tower would extend, the whole construction would need to be further supported. The whole spiralling staircase would need to be raised, and you can only get that high before the curve flattens out, so there is a limit to how high you can build a ziggurat (well, not really, you could theoretically reach space, but they soon figured out that even the clouds are barely closer at 100 meters' elevation and continue building would be meaningless. When you have reached let's say 100 meters up, you would have to add so many millions of tons of bricks to support just one extra meter upwards that nobody would be able to defend further building within the limits of sense. And God is supposed to represent sense and rational thinking though saying he still does have a few issues related to said sense-- would be an understatement of course.

I never managed to find the main source for the midrash where God destroys the Babylon ziggurat, for apparently it was still standing by the time Herodotus wrote about it, claiming he saw it, so I suspect the destruction part is some kind of later propaganda from around the time of the building of the Second Temple, or what does the Mesopotamian texts say about this? It's a bit embarrassing that I don't know the Mesopotamian texts well enough, I should know this. But I never came across a good source for the destruction of the Tower of Babel.

ETA: According to the Babylon Tower's wikipedia page, «The already decayed Great Ziggurat of Babylon was finally destroyed by Alexander the Great in an attempt to rebuild it. He managed to move the tiles of the tower to another location, but his death stopped the reconstruction.»

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

where does it say it was built like a corkscrew? need this one answered before i read the rest of your post

babel = etemenanki? (according to the researcher at the link, he thinks herodotus is full of it. you might find this very interesting)

www.livius.org...

a reply to: undo

This is funny, my (in lack of a better term) alien-friend-spiritual-hitch-hikers-guide-or-some-thing-or-other says his name is Nimrod. Maybe i heard that wrong and it is Nudimmud, which would fit, because my spiritual name is Ishtar-Innana, i'm a temple... Also when we joke around he calls me "Voll-Pfosten" That's German -means something similar to idiot, but the word is translated: full-post. And i am full-filling the duty of my temple... Urch this is a really bad day for stuff like that, already have a few delusional-schizophrenic-feelings-heartbroken-#ty things in my head, so it might be dangerous to follow that further today. Funny enough it is because of a guy best described as "awesome vessel of entertainment" born in Bahrain...
And you # my head when you repeat world-order all the time. Which is exactly the kind of fairy tale i entertain myself with in times like this: I could destroy the ma'at from my bed without even lifting a finger. And i kind of try to and do.
Now you got me started!

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Sorry to disapoint you, but they found the foundations of the tower and it was a rectangle

a reply to: undo

Well, apparently it was still standing by the time Alexander the Great, in an attempt at fixing it, managed to destroy it. I may be wrong, but it is described like a winding staircase, with a small shrine on top, according to Herodotus, where the Baal-Ishtar union was supposed to happen.

originally posted by: undo
babel = etemenanki? (according to the researcher at the link, he thinks herodotus is full of it. you might find this very interesting)

www.livius.org...

Yes, Herodotus made many claims that sounds spurious to modern historians, but like I said, it was supposed to have been destroyed by Alexander the Great, not God. And Herodotus is one of the only "Western" sources we have. So we don't really have much to base our assumptions upon. It's like with the hanging gardens and all those other wonders, we can only assume. However most such ziggurats that we can study the remains from, seem to have been step pyramids with massive ramps, anyway, winding staircase or not, it's built like a mound, and artificial mountain if you like, to allow the people of the great plains of Mesopotamia to elevate themselves towards heaven just like the people further north and east, where sacred mountains filled the same purpose. Below is the Wiki page for the Ziggurat of Ur:

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: Peeple

Like I said, the cork-screw shape isn't really important, the point is that in order to support a rising tower built by brickwork, you will have to build outwards for structural support in order to distribute the weight of the entire structure. I used the cork-screw example since it is the shape made popular through biblical art and such. It is the elevation and ground support which is essential here as well as the bricks used in the area, which the Bible describes as terracotta bricks in Gen 11:3.

You are probably right that it was rectangular, it is much simpler to build a step pyramid than such a winding staircase structure even.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: undo

Well, apparently it was still standing by the time Alexander the Great, in an attempt at fixing it, managed to destroy it. I may be wrong, but it is described like a winding staircase, with a small shrine on top, according to Herodotus, where the Baal-Ishtar union was supposed to happen.

i 'm not trying to be difficult, but could you give me a source for that? i want to be accurate. the guy at the livius.org link brings up a good point - just because the building was located in babylon, doesn't mean it's the tower of babel. i think what has happened is historians and assyriologists have clung to the notion that all ancient buildings of that magnitude (such as the pyramid of khufu /cheops) were built with spiral ramps. further research has shown a spiral ramp of that magnitude would take longer to build than the structure itself. (dang you read fast)

have you ever read the namshub of enki?

peeple

never considered that nudimmud could be nimrod. doh, now i have to go do more research. hehe

originally posted by: undo

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: undo

Well, apparently it was still standing by the time Alexander the Great, in an attempt at fixing it, managed to destroy it. I may be wrong, but it is described like a winding staircase, with a small shrine on top, according to Herodotus, where the Baal-Ishtar union was supposed to happen.

i 'm not trying to be difficult, but could you give me a source for that? i want to be accurate.

Herodotus Histories Book 1 Chapter 181:

...the temple of Zeus Belos with bronze gates, and this exists still up to my time and measures two furlongs each way, being of a square shape: and in the midst of the temple is built a solid tower measuring a furlong both in length and in breadth, and on this tower another tower has been erected, and another again upon this, and so on up to the number of eight towers. An ascent to these has been built running outside round about all the towers; and when one reaches about the middle of the ascent one finds a stopping-place and seats to rest upon, on which those who ascend sit down and rest: and on the top of the last tower there is a large cell

In my Oxford University Press edition, the italics above says (page 79, ISBN 978-0-19-953566-8):

A stairway has been constructed to wind its way up the outside of all the towers

Further down the page a temple is used instead of cell above:

In the last tower there is a huge temple

the guy at the livius.org link brings up a good point - just because the building was located in babylon, doesn't mean it's the tower of babel. i think what has happened is historians and assyriologists have clung to the notion that all ancient buildings of that magnitude (such as the pyramid of khufu /cheops) were built with spiral ramps. further research has shown a spiral ramp of that magnitude would take longer to build than the structure itself.

Like I said we don't have much to rely on other than some remains that aren't even ruins, they're more like ruined ruins, and Herodotus who describes it in the excerpt I quoted above. We can only assume that he was telling the truth, but like I said he makes some incredible claims about among other the near astronomical dimensions of Lake Moeris I mentioned earlier and also other things. A general skeptic approach towards such claims is fundamental, but just because his claims are fantastic at times, I still mean it's the best we've got and work from there.

(dang you read fast)

Hehe, not really, I'm an incredibly slow reader actually, but I'm quite analytic and I skim sections of the books and scan for key words and phrases like names or other words standing out, checking context and I normally write as well as reading not merely taking notes, but making short essay-ish notes, like the thread op's here. I also use google and other search engines alongside browsing books, I buy lots of these books, ancient history and religion is sort of my hobby, and I love the function in google where if you write ex. zeus:sacred-texs.com in the search field, you search is limited to sacred-texts.com. Great function.

have you ever read the namshub of enki?

Nope, I'm afraid not. Anything in particular I should look for?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

it's the tower of babel account in ENMERKAR AND THE LORD OF ARRATA (enmerkar is the biblical nimrod and the egyptian narmer (who started the pharaonic dynasty at abydos, egypt)

my nudimmud research has run headlong into a huge problem: it says nudimmud is enki. and related stories, make it sound as if enki is adam. here's a possible way to resolve that:

atum (adam) was the god of creation in egyptian accounts. the egyptian accounts were presumably from ham (son of noah), who's name is egypt (khem is the land of egypt and khem=ham). in effect, the land was named after ham. so ham took the mesopotamian account of creation to egypt with him.

why does ham say that atum is the creator? the reference to enki being adam, clears that right up. however, it doesn't clear up how adam the god becomes adam the man, at least not without reading the text carefully. the answer is: the created adam were named after their creator - so the first race of adam (males and females created in the images of the elohim (a plural word meaning "gods") were named atum, as they were duplicates/copies of the original elohim. you're probably thinking - well then why didnt he call them elohim instead of adam then? answer is: he did. it's the same word. i know it doesn't look the same but it is! observe:

the first name on the sumerian king's list is alulim. alulim is adam/atum. in fact, it's a whole race, not just one guy and one lady, but a whole bunch of alulim (afterall, it's a plural word! see the suffix? -im = plural). remember language variants and cultural drift. alulim is also elohim, just later in the timeline and primarily in mesopotamia rather than in egypt.

so alulim=atum/adam/elohim

hope i explained that clearly

there is still one creator but he created the alulim/atum/adam/elohim in the images of other alulim/atum/adam/elohim. and these were survivors from the earth prior to the cataclysm we know as the ice age.

a reply to: undo

I'm not familiar with that book, unfortunately, there are lit. hundreds of them. The quotes I made were from the nine vol. book named Histories by the Greek historian Herodotus, written down some 2500+ years ago.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

12000 km below the Euphrates you'll find the studios where your Stargate shows are made.

well you'll have to go north about 1275 miles, to find where the SG 1 series was filmed in Vancouver, Canada.