Utah ancient rock: US scouts could face charges

reply to post by Galileo400


I did not imply (above) that I condone this behaviour either, because every (good and well guided) Scout should KNOW to leave nature as they found it when they arrived. It seems to me that the elder leaders enjoyed this fiasco and likely egged them on to cause this damage. THEY should know better and teach better. It also seemed as if they came up with this 'in case the rock endangers someone else in the future' crapola after the event to cover their a$$es. I don't buy it. They were just being destructive with intent of destruction.

Yet, what can we expect from the youth (or the old) when they entire planet (and it's eco-system) is treated like this on a daily basis? Pftttt.

dianashay
reply to post by Cobaltic1978

 

I read in the news today that the Scout leaders are now getting death threats.

Amazing, since the Boy Scouts have had their share of sexual abuse rampant within that system (in the US and Canada) and I didn't see anyone threaten death over THAT, but do so over a rock?

sigh

It was predicted 2,000 years ago that this era would see worship of Creator abandoned

in favor of

worship of the creation.

imho, your example is evidence of that.

. . . regardless of the denials. Evidently . . . for some . . . a rose by any other name is not a rose. LOL.

Incredible.

I think these guys just killed the hibernating queen of an insectoid living on Mars.

Ohw it's just another rock

Sorry wrong thread.

mikelkhall
Ancient Native American Mound To Be Destroyed To Build Sam's Club

Subway Workers In China Accidentally Demolish 3000-Year-Old Tombs

Industry Destroys Part Of The Nazca Lines

Pyramid In Peru Destroyed By Developers

Bulldozers Destroy Maya Ruin In Belize

So yeah, at the end of the day, it was just a rock. If it's ok for a multi-billion dollar company to lay waste to history then what those scout leaders did was nothing.

No, it's worse. They - as Scout Masters - are supposed to represent the ideals of conservation of the BSA. I'm not saying that the actions your links describe are not horrible. They are. But, that is sadly what one can expect of money hungry developers, corporations, etc. The Scouts should idealize the opposite. For that reason, they are doubly accountable.

reply to post by BO XIAN


This isn't the religious forum. We don't need your lecture.

WHAAAAAA a rock moved a few feet, big deal.....lets worry about fixing our economy, or you know helping each other.....every single person in this thread who is butt hurt over a rock that moved needs to........GET A LIFE

Or better yet, i hope a rock 'moves' and falls on you, and a Scout Troop just happens to be by and offer NO assistance. Thats what you would deserve. Seriously.

reply to post by Restricted


Not that nonsensical whine again. Sheesh.

YOU and everyone else

"lecture/s" me from YOUR/their value orientations

But I can't do the same?

How egalitarian!

Sheesh. What gross hypocrisy.

HINT . . . it's impossible to write very significantly about much of anything without expressing, if not pushing one's values.

I encourage you to deal with it. Preferably maturely.

PART OF THE DISCUSSION of the rock incident

involves MOTIVES of the perpetrators

from various perspectives.

My assertions come out of my cosmology AS DO YOURS AND THOSE OF EVERY OTHER POSTER on this thread.

I encourage you to deal with it maturely.

My contention is that the perpetrators get such a harsh blackwashing hereon

BECAUSE folks who have left one type of worship of The CREATOR Deity

HAVE TAKEN ON another type of worship of the CREATION.

That's a perfectly reasonable assertion--BASED ON THE EVIDENCE on this thread.

There is a RELIGIOUS FERVOR type of RELIGIOUS HOSTILITY toward the perpetrators QUITE OUT OF PROPORTION to the deed done. That is ONLY explainable, imho, by my interpretation of the evidence on this thread.

And, it seems to me, I have just as much a right to express that perception as you do expressing your perceptions about the info presented on this thread.

Sheesh.

Haughty smug arrogance is not very attractive, to me.
.
.


.

reply to post by BO XIAN


The inability to intelligently discuss something without god entering into the conversation just shows me that you have no individual identity. You rely on a religious platform to dictate your opinions.

Bible thumping is not attractive to me. I question your maturity in that you haven't grown out of the limitations of organized spirituality.

Bake your bread in the religious forum. This is a natural history issue.

reply to post by Restricted


Thanks for illustrating that you haven't a clue about me.

And, evidently, that you failed to understand the basics of that post about everyone has a cosmology that they speak/write out of--regardless of the topic or venue.

I understand you are allergic to some cosmologies. Whoop-T-Do.

I discussed how the issue of motivation of the perpetrators was an issue and how that intersected with my cosmology. Tough tacos that you are allergic to such a discussion. My grief for your discomfort might equal half a gnat's fart's worth.

Anytime supposedly intelligent folks want to trash several lives over an unremarkable, very much about to fall rock being moved a few feet

is a huge indicator of misplaced priorities, imho, at best . . . and given the

1. attitudes evident in the posts hereon
2. the tones of the posts hereon
3. the word choices of the posts hereon
4. the sentence structure of the posts hereon

IT IS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR to those with sufficient understanding and maybe training in such matters . . .

THAT there is a RELIGIOUS BLOOD THIRSTY WITCH HUNT spirit, attitude, mentality against the perpetrators.

That's just a fact.

It's a demonstrable fact as witnessed by the text in this thread.

You can pretend that it's REASONABLE to DENY whatever slice of the realities of this case that

YOU ARE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH

as though you were the Lord God Almighty of the thread yourself.

I happen to disagree.

BTW, knee jerk reflexes that tend to obsessively label anything of a Biblical cosmology as BIBLE THUMPING is, to me, uninformed, unaware, . . . or worse . . . and comes across as snivelingly unattractive.

And NO. I have no intention of going to the back of the bus just because you're uncomfortable with how I construe reality and naturally talk about it.

BO XIAN
reply to post by Restricted

 

Thanks for illustrating that you haven't a clue about me.

And, evidently, that you failed to understand the basics of that post about everyone has a cosmology that they speak/write out of--regardless of the topic or venue.

I understand you are allergic to some cosmologies. Whoop-T-Do.

I discussed how the issue of motivation of the perpetrators was an issue and how that intersected with my cosmology. Tough tacos that you are allergic to such a discussion. My grief for your discomfort might equal half a gnat's fart's worth.

Anytime supposedly intelligent folks want to trash several lives over an unremarkable, very much about to fall rock being moved a few feet

is a huge indicator of misplaced priorities, imho, at best . . . and given the

1. attitudes evident in the posts hereon
2. the tones of the posts hereon
3. the word choices of the posts hereon
4. the sentence structure of the posts hereon

IT IS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR to those with sufficient understanding and maybe training in such matters . . .

THAT there is a RELIGIOUS BLOOD THIRSTY WITCH HUNT spirit, attitude, mentality against the perpetrators.

That's just a fact.

It's a demonstrable fact as witnessed by the text in this thread.

You can pretend that it's REASONABLE to DENY whatever slice of the realities of this case that

YOU ARE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH

as though you were the Lord God Almighty of the thread yourself.

I happen to disagree.

BTW, knee jerk reflexes that tend to obsessively label anything of a Biblical cosmology as BIBLE THUMPING is, to me, uninformed, unaware, . . . or worse . . . and comes across as snivelingly unattractive.

And NO. I have no intention of going to the back of the bus just because you're uncomfortable with how I construe reality and naturally talk about it.

edit on 20/10/2013 by BO XIAN because: added

edit on 20/10/2013 by BO XIAN because: added

Wow. I think you have managed to insult just about everyone who participated in this thread thus far. Way to go. Maybe you and your cosmology should consult the Bible to see Christ's attitudes about holding one's self in high esteem. You also may want to check for wooden objects in your field of view. Just sayin'. God bless you sir or madam.

reply to post by mantisfortress


I will prayerfully reflect on and ponder your words.

It's not my desire to insult persons or personhood.

I don't mind being fiesty about hostile ideas and assertions slung my way so chronically.

And it gets wearisome when folks seemingly refuse to consider a perspective as though they can't comprehend it . . . then attack the messenger . . . and then whine about the messenger replying stridently in return. Sheesh.

Deal with my points vs attack the messenger, please.

However, I shouldn't be surprised. The blood lust began this thread against the perpetrators. Who was I to even imagine I'd ever be exempt from the same blood lust.

Particularly if, as everyone else on the thread, I dared to write out of my values and the perspective of my constructions on reality. NOPE. Automatically and arbitrarily disallowed by the super reductionists worshiping NATURE. Welll excuse me. .

Over a rock. A dangerously perched rock very very close to falling on its own. . . . a common thing in these parts.


But noooooooo string em up. Imprison them for capital crimes against the mother earth goddess NATURE. Sheesh.

Sigh.

shakes head incredulously.

Wow! I just skimmed through 5 ways of crazy!
And I do respect others opinions in life... That is why I am here.
I want to understand how others process the information they receive, and how they react.
I am agnostic, agree with some points the "tea party" makes, and have been called a tree hugger by my farm family.

I believe our farm is the key to our future. (you all know that is where your food stamps come from right?)

Most of you are 5 ways of crazy and uneducated... And that scares me...

I have spent years studying the decline of the monarch Butterfly on my own... I have not received a government grant like others have. I just did it because I cared... I even spent a few years collecting Caterpillars and taking them into my children's classroom at the request of their teachers...

And then... the school went stupid... every kid got a computer and parents were no longer able to be involved.
The day of 911... I was the one who walked into the school to inform them what was going on that day. (Not a Single child or teacher died that day.) I was just an informed parent.

To tie this all up in a neat little knot.

My baby brother almost died attending "Boy Scout" camp 20+ years ago due to reckless behavior of one of his mentors....

Reckless behavior of an older boy driving some younger Scouts to town... decided to "act cool" and speed like stupid on a gravel road. Lost control of the vehicle and 2 young boys were tossed like dolls out of the vehicle as they were attempting to fasten their seatbelts... To this day.... I wish I knew the details and the seat location of the injured and the 1 fatality.

The Scout Leaders Son was a one of the passengers vehicle that day... He died... But only after a week or two after suffering from a head injury.

The driver walked away with little injury.

I remember seeing another young passenger in the ER that day who had some slight injures... but he was sent home soon after.

My baby Brother spent a month or so in the hospital... it was a scary time for us... His body was broken.. But he overcame his injuries and made an oath to "protect" U.S. a few years later.


I feel like I am living in a generation of idiots. who the heck thinks it is right to destroy stuff just because you can?

Asktheanimals
reply to post by Restricted

 

Prison time? For pushing over a rock?
I agree it was a stupid thing to do, pay a fine, do some service work and use that as example for others to learn from via publicity from the news story. That way everybody comes out ahead. No need for draconian measures here. Had they spray painted some aboriginal rock art well, firing squad comes to mind for that.

In their defense there was a story about a family in Colorado I think that was killed by falling rocks. That may have been in their thoughts.

edit on 19-10-2013 by Asktheanimals because: (no reason given)

What if the rock had slipped the other direction? It would have crushed them. If there was a danger, they should have reported it. What if other people had been below them.

It's like the scouts in France who cleaned up and scrubbed off the grafitti inside the back of a cave. Except it wasn't grafitti, it was some of the oldest prehistoric cave paintings from over 10,000 years ago.

reply to post by mantisfortress

The Scouts should idealize the opposite. For that reason, they are doubly accountable.

Oh for Christ's sake. Walmart is destroying an entire Indian mound to make room for their store and parking lot and all these guys did was push over one rock. How does the fact that they are scout masters make them doubly accountable? In what universe is the worth of one stupid rock more than the history and sanctity of an entire Indian mound?

I have a big problem with this! How dare they move a rock 8 feet? In fact, I think that guy that moved that rock in "127 Hours" (based on a true story) and had to hack off his own arm with a pocket knife should probably get jail time too... As the State Park spokesperson said. "This has been formed for literally millions of years, and it's supposed to last for a long time. It doesn't need individuals doing the work of Mother Nature." Never mind that we let Monsanto make up genetically engineered food that has destroyed through hybridization all organic strains of corn in the U.S. and is on the way to destroy wheat. Pay no attention to the Frankenfish Salmon that would completely destroy ocean environments if they ever got out. Don't worry about the fracking that makes ground water flammable. Let's turn out faces away from all of that because those scientists are smarter than God or Mother Nature that spent literally millions of years to come up with this perfectly balanced ecosystem. Let's worry about some kids that robbed us of another great sequel "128 Hours", where some guy has to chew off his own leg because it was trapped under that particular rock! I sure hope that the comments shaming those boy scouts were done in jest or just trolls, because if not there are more than a few people on these forums that seriously need to take a look at their priorities and gain a little common sense. With this sort of thinking it's no wonder we're all getting robbed blind.

mikelkhall
At the end of the day it's still just a stupid rock.
2nd

Which was formed 198 millions years still what they did was ridicules.

mikelkhall
reply to post by mantisfortress

 

The Scouts should idealize the opposite. For that reason, they are doubly accountable.

Oh for Christ's sake. Walmart is destroying an entire Indian mound to make room for their store and parking lot and all these guys did was push over one rock. How does the fact that they are scout masters make them doubly accountable? In what universe is the worth of one stupid rock more than the history and sanctity of an entire Indian mound?

You can try to remove accountability by making comparisons all you wish. Why should I face prosecution for speeding/dwi/petty theft/whatever, when there are murderers/rapists/child molesters/whatever running free? It is the same weak, spineless argument.

It is a travesty that greedy companies are allowed to do the things you and others have mentioned. What does that have to do with this? Nothing, that's what. Again...Walmart, GM, or whatever "evil" corporations were not created and are not operated with the main goal of nature appreciation or the education of young people about it. That's why they are doubly accountable. If that doesn't make sense to you, I'll make a comparison. You seem to understand those. If a law-enforcement official is found to be guilty of a criminal act, they should be - and often are - held doubly accountable. Because they are entrusted to represent lawfulness.

Furthermore, this thread is not about Walmart or Indian burial mounds. Maybe you should start one. I'll be the first one to jump on your bandwagon. With the methodology you have used here, we could kill the validity of any topic with, "Oh yeah...what about Hitler, bro?"

reply to post by mantisfortress


I have never stated that what these scout masters did was right or justified. I'm just against the lame arrogance of some of the posters in stating that these men should be put in prison or stoned or even worse.

Yes these me did defile a masterpiece of nature and they should be punished but the punishment should fit the crime.

I don't believe a ludicrous fine, that will ruin them for life, is the correct course nor do I believe they should be placed in prison.

I believe perhaps some form of community service and some education on the beauty of Mother Earth would be served best.

mantisfortress

Furthermore, this thread is not about Walmart or Indian burial mounds. Maybe you should start one. I'll be the first one to jump on your bandwagon. With the methodology you have used here, we could kill the validity of any topic with, "Oh yeah...what about Hitler, bro?"

You are correct, this thread is not about Walmart or Indian burial mounds, it's about people destroying ancient landmarks. I do believe that both of those qualify.

mantisfortress

That's why they are doubly accountable. If that doesn't make sense to you, I'll make a comparison. You seem to understand those. If a law-enforcement official is found to be guilty of a criminal act, they should be - and often are - held doubly accountable. Because they are entrusted to represent lawfulness.

I am a police officer and I believe that it is reprehensible when law-enforcement breaks their oath. Once again though I have to disagree with you. How can anyone be held doubly accountable for their actions just because of who or what they are?

If an officer breaks the law and the judge wishes to make an example out of him then that judge may "throw the book" at the officer. What that usually means is that the officer receives the maximum sentence that is available by law. If the crime has a minimum sentence of 3 years in prison and a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison then the judge may sentence the officer to the maximum of 10 years in prison. At no time can the judge just decide to change the law and hold that officer doubly accountable and sentence him to 20 years in prison because that would be illegal.

You can try to remove accountability by making comparisons all you wish. Why should I face prosecution for speeding/dwi/petty theft/whatever, when there are murderers/rapists/child molesters/whatever running free? It is the same weak, spineless argument.

Seeing how you like to compare apples and bananas I will throw your own rhetoric back at you:

Furthermore, this thread is not about speeding/dwi/petty theft/whatever nor is it about murderers/rapist/child molesters/whatever running free. Seems you enjoy using the same weak, spineless arguments.

And pulease...don't bring the douchbag Hitler into this.

reply to post by Agent_USA_Supporter

Which was formed 198 millions years still what they did was ridicules.

What they did was criminal and they should pay, just not with blood. The rock is still there albeit in a different location and not as beautiful balancing as it once was but these men should not be imprisoned or stoned or fined to bankruptcy or worse because they are stupid.