What is so scary about thinking, or discovering, your Religion is false?

reply to post by logical7

You are squirming.
The quotes from the Qu'ran are direct .... beat the women.
And Imams today teach men how to 'properly beat women'.
And the quotes from the Qu'ran are direct ... women aren't worth what a man is in a court of law.
And the quotes from the Qu'ran are direct ... don't have non-believers as friends,
and in fact ... go kill them.

So no ... Your statement that 'the message in Qur'an is simple, Worship only God, respect parents, feed the hungry, take care of orphans, give charity etc' IS HOGWASH. We know better than that ... so don't even try to pass that off.

The only 'hate propaganda' is the Qu'ran itself.

YOU STILL HAVEN'T ADDRESSED THE ISSUE - You say that the accounts of Jesus from his time period aren't trustworthy and yet you buy into the fiction written almost 700 years later by a madman named Muhammad. How exactly is that logical?

reply to post by logical7

ah!!
You took the example too literally.
Freedom corrupts? Thats interesting but i never said it.
I said freedom diminishes as knowledge increases along with responsibility to act on it.
Maybe our interpretation of the word "freedom" are different.

I didn't take it "too literally", I grabbed it and ran with it. You missed the point.

As knowledge increases, certain OPTIONS are passed over due to experience. An inexperienced (or fresh-karma reincarnated person with no memory) will MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES.

A KNOWLEDGEABLE soul will say, "oh, no, that's NOT an option." Narrows the field down a LOT.

Someone who's never learned what DOESN'T work is doomed to repeat it.

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

But why should i when i get the answers?

LOL!!!!

How do you KNOW the 'answers' you get are CORRECT AND TRUE? Answer: YOU DON'T.

very objectively yes I DON'T
but it still provides complete unconflicting explanations(that click with one another like a giant puzzle) about everything unlike christianity or your beliefs.
And believe me it is a very wow to experience that clicks.

reply to post by logical7

And believe me it is a very wow to experience that clicks.

lol Engrish funny.....

Yes, it is very 'wow' when an experience stunningly clicks in. I've had a number of them. But I'm not chained to any specific ancient text or religion, because ALL of those experiences happened OUTSIDE of any 'religious expectation' or 'rigid belief' on my part.

it still provides complete unconflicting explanations(that click with one another like a giant puzzle) about everything unlike christianity or your beliefs.

WHAT!!! ??????

Oh, that one almost made me choke, I was laughing so hard!! My 'beliefs' answer and explain my reality with unconflicting sense, dude. You don't (and aren't expected to) have to 'get it.' It's okay.

Still, I'M NOT THE ONE IN CHAINS.

reply to post by FlyersFan

FlyersFan
reply to post by logical7

 

You are squirming.
The quotes from the Qu'ran are direct .... beat the women.
And Imams today teach men how to 'properly beat women'.
And the quotes from the Qu'ran are direct ... women aren't worth what a man is in a court of law.
And the quotes from the Qu'ran are direct ... don't have non-believers as friends,
and in fact ... go kill them.

So no ... Your statement that 'the message in Qur'an is simple, Worship only God, respect parents, feed the hungry, take care of orphans, give charity etc' IS HOGWASH. We know better than that ... so don't even try to pass that off.

The only 'hate propaganda' is the Qu'ran itself.

YOU STILL HAVEN'T ADDRESSED THE ISSUE - You say that the accounts of Jesus from his time period aren't trustworthy and yet you buy into the fiction written almost 700 years later by a madman named Muhammad. How exactly is that logical?

edit on 11/6/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

because i unlike you am not stuck on Jesus pbuh. I believe in One Creator and Qur'an affirms that.

You ignored the trickery and lies that i pointed in the copy paste you did.

Even if i was not a muslim, i wouldnt believe Jesus pbuh to be god like many others and many here actually would and do agree to Qur'an's idea of Jesus pbuh.

what i am trying to say is that maligning Islam does not make you belief more true. Its still based on a lot of faith.
And according to me, making a man into god on authority of unverifiable and evidently tampered texts is a big leap of faith!

reply to post by logical7


I gave direct Quran quotes that prove you wrong.
Islam isn't some nice peaceful little religion.
It's a lie and it's bad for humanity.

YOU STILL HAVEN'T ADDRESSED THE ISSUE - You say that the accounts of Jesus from his time period aren't trustworthy and yet you buy into the fiction written almost 700 years later by a madman named Muhammad. How exactly is that logical?

reply to post by FlyersFan


Logical also gave you a quote revealing your quote to be a skewed paraphrasing of the original. In other words, someone twisted the scripture into something similar but different. Grass, branch, beat the woman, strike herewith, and don't break the oath. Small changes transformed it from an obscure but harmless line into a vicious instruction of cruelty.

You may want to cross-check and make sure the same thing didn't happen to the rest of your quotes.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Here is how Imams interpret that quote

In his book Women in Islam, published four years ago, Mustafa wrote that verbal warnings followed by a period of sexual inactivity could be used to discipline a disobedient wife. If that failed, he argued that according to Islamic law, beatings could be judiciously administered. “The blows should be concentrated on the hands and feet using a rod that is thin and light so that it does not leave scars or bruises on the body,” he wrote.

He's not alone. This has been taught by Imams around the world based on those Qu'ran quotes. And Logical ignored the rest of the quotes. He picked one .... but it's obvious that the Qu'ran isn't just a bunch of 'be nice to orphans' quotes like he tried to make it out to be.

The Qur'an .. the Old Testament .. neither is exactly 'nice' ... ya' know??

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

ah!!
You took the example too literally.
Freedom corrupts? Thats interesting but i never said it.
I said freedom diminishes as knowledge increases along with responsibility to act on it.
Maybe our interpretation of the word "freedom" are different.

I didn't take it "too literally", I grabbed it and ran with it. You missed the point.

As knowledge increases, certain OPTIONS are passed over due to experience. An inexperienced (or fresh-karma reincarnated person with no memory) will MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES.

A KNOWLEDGEABLE soul will say, "oh, no, that's NOT an option." Narrows the field down a LOT.

Someone who's never learned what DOESN'T work is doomed to repeat it.

sounds like a rephrasing of limited freedom. And knowledge does not only come from making one's own mistakes, it can come from advice, books, observations etc. I don't have to murder and bear its karma to learn that its wrong and you may claim that my soul already did it and learnt etc but that as you admit is just speculation. The same applies to you. You learnt many things without actually having to go through making mistakes.
And yes coming up with a speculative explanation does not mean it completely makes sense.
You have not answered my long back questions about origin of soul and is it blank or on naturally programmed morality, i think you would agree to the later. Then the believe you have starts raising many questions.
Isn't it futile to bring a pure soul on earth and then make it suffer till it becomes pure again!!?
A pure 1st time soul should not get any karma, yet bad things happen to everyone, so what was that?
I would continue but now i have to go. Cu tomorrow. Tc.

FlyersFan
reply to post by logical7

FlyersFan
You are squirming.
The quotes from the Qu'ran are direct .... beat the women.
And Imams today teach men how to 'properly beat women'.
And the quotes from the Qu'ran are direct ... women aren't worth what a man is in a court of law.
And the quotes from the Qu'ran are direct ... don't have non-believers as friends,and in fact ... go kill them.

Whos interpretation (next publication) of the Q'uran exactly? Those that overlay Sharia law to it, warping and contaminating it. Two distinct ideaforms. AfterInfinity is correct, broad metaphor can and has been twisted. Id never imagine a Holy person such as Mohammed (women friendly actually) would/could abide by this interpretation of his message. Reminds me of Paul "the masogynist" in the same manner of tweeking the 'Jesus' message to suite his needs. Two major religions dealing with a similar corruption by OTHERS engaged in powerplays and usership.

flyersfan
So no ... Your statement that 'the message in Qur'an is simple, Worship only God, respect parents, feed the hungry, take care of orphans, give charity etc' IS HOGWASH. We know better than that ... so don't even try to pass that off.
The only 'hate propaganda' is the Qu'ran itself.

The message of/within the Q'uran is simple, its a direct nod to Confusionism (how can that be!) another major doctrine imitating/duplicating itself elsewere in a different time period. The Q'uran is a system of living by "these" standards (or as never before) unwritten LAWS; essencially meant to express a standard of living; "treat each other with decency and respect". Sharia Law (NOTE THE WORD LAW) negated the original Q'urans message and has been trying to override its authority for many years.

reply to post by logical7

And knowledge does not only come from making one's own mistakes, it can come from advice, books, observations etc. I don't have to murder and bear its karma to learn that its wrong

Absolutely true, you can listen to advice, books, observations, etc. But to REALLY understand HOW WRONG IT IS, yes - you have to endure the consequences PERSONALLY. Reading about it, and LIVING IT, are two very different things. And those two things, (reading, hearing it vs EXPERIENCING it) are NOT the same.

Yes, my daughter has told me, "Mom, I learned from watching and listening to you about the mistakes you've made! I'm glad you told me, and didn't keep it quiet or secret from me! I think about those, and weigh them against other options, and try not to make the same ones."

PERFECT. GOOD!! That's why I TOLD her about those 'mistakes.' But - can she TRULY understand the pain? No. She can't, until she herself lives through those episodes. Just like I can try to explain to her what childbirth is like, or what raising babies/children is like.....

she won't TOTALLY get it until she's experienced it herself, no matter HOW MUCH she has practiced (as a day-care teacher, or a baby-sitter, or a nanny, or listened to me).....SHE HAS TO LIVE IT TO GET IT.

But, whatever, log7. Okay then.

reply to post by wildtimes


Theoretically, if enough generations passed in such a manner as one father/mother explaining their mistakes and lessons to the next, there would come a generation that made no mistakes at all. What would come of that? What would they learn? What would they accomplish? The simple answer: nothing. They would learn, accomplish, and triumph over nothing, because they took no risks. They tried nothing new. And therefore, they will know no victory. They will have no dreams. They will have no joy. They will stagnate. They will take strides to sustain exactly what they have until they are no longer around to have it. But no more.

Is that the future we wish for our children?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Theoretically, if enough generations passed in such a manner as one father/mother explaining their mistakes and lessons to the next, there would come a generation that made no mistakes at all.

That's precisely the point! But here's the caveat: the 'generation that makes no mistakes at all' has to have lived with the consequences of making those mistakes previously, because they can't TRULY understand what the consequences are 'like' by just reading about, or listening to, the travails, regrets, and disappointments of the sufferer. Ugh. I don't know if I'm being coherent here or not.....
No, one has to LIVE IT ONESELF to truly get it.


Therefore, THE INDIVIDUAL "soul" has to live enough lifetimes ITSELF so that its past experiences are truly as painful as a 'father's/mother's' "report" says they were, will, or might be....THEN that soul UNDERSTANDS why not to make those mistakes. Not just that they SHOULD not make those mistakes, but WHY.

Which = ENLIGHTENMENT, and release from the cycle of do-overs (reincarnation), as in: graduation from the school.

Makes perfect sense to me. Unlike "eternal torture in hell" for things done without having experienced the consequences first.

That is just bald-faced FEAR. NO ONE GROWS if motivated by FEAR. They might survive, they might die without being besmirched by having tested the boundaries...but they will NOT have GROWN to it.

It is mere lip-service and blind obedience under the threat of being 'cast into eternal hellfire.'

reply to post by wildtimes


I think there should come a point at which an old soul graduates and becomes a young soul again. And repeats the whole process. What other point is there to existing?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I think there should come a point at which an old soul graduates and becomes a young soul again. And repeats the whole process. What other point is there to existing?

Maybe becomes a 'young soul' again IN ANOTHER DIMENSION. That's what I think the goal is. To proceed through the various dimensions, not just come back to this one over and over with no clue how to behave.

No. Once the 'process' is complete, one moves on to OTHER REALMS and dimensions....to begin grad-level courses.....that no Earth-bound undergrad soul has yet 'earned.'

reply to post by wildtimes


I'm talking about Law of One, where you graduate through 8 dimensions before restarting and doing it all over again. In the end, everyone becomes king before starting over as a peasant again.

reply to post by FlyersFan

I gave direct Quran quotes that prove
you wrong.
Islam isn't some nice peaceful little
religion.
It's a lie and it's bad for humanity.

you gave quotes with very choosy language used in translation and other stand alone verses. The only thing it clears is your intention to falsify islam rather than a genuine desire to learn Islam.
At least admit that the verses about pure monotheism, caring for parents, kin and orphans, feeding the poor exist.
I admit that the verses you quoted are in Qur'an but the proof does not stop there, on a little further open minded investigation those verses fall into place and don't appear barberic.
The verse says how to fight when required and tells believers to not be the agressors or not to exceed in retaliation more than its required to establish peace and safety.
It can be seen same as the Geneva regulations for war. Does it mean the UN encourages war if it laid down some humanitarian rules about how to conduct war and treat PoWs?

So please dont attempt to shock me by flinging these verses at me. You think i have not already investigated and sought satisfactory explanations?
If what you say was true do you think people in west would convert after reading the Qur'an?

Little knowledge makes an individual very certain and sometimes arrogant but when knowledge and understanding increases, humility takes over!

YOU STILL HAVEN'T ADDRESSED THE
ISSUE - You say that the accounts of
Jesus from his time period aren't
trustworthy and yet you buy into the
fiction written almost 700 years later
by a madman named Muhammad. How exactly is that logical?

i have answered it twice and this would be the 3rd.

To me the idea that God sent prophets from Adam to Muhammad peace be upon them all uniformly to preach the same message of One God makes more sense than a sudden glitch where one of that messenger is made god by texts of unverifiable authorship and confirmed tampering.
Its not secret how the church kept the bible exclusive for priests and how only 4 gospels out of many were choosen and stamped as cannonical. You may ignore this all on faith, i can't. There are christians who actually believe that all those people in church and later editors etc were all guided by the Spirit even when they had selfish motives and so the Bible is still authentic!

So i hope you got the answer why i choose Islam rather than the creed that was literally forced down people's throats and which demands faith in the extreme UPrightness of the early Church.

logical7i have answered it twice and this would be the 3rd.

No. You haven't.

You say that the accounts of Jesus from his time period aren't trustworthy and yet you buy into the
fiction written almost 700 years later by a madman named Muhammad. How exactly is that logical?

You keep saying 'it's because Islam preaches ONE GOD and that God can't become man' ... or some such thing.

But that's NOT the question. Read it carefully ...

You completely disregard the gospels because you think that they are supposedly tainted and unreliable.

But nearly 700 years later, Muhammad MADE UP STORIES ... completely faked stories about 'prophets' and bible figures and others ... Stories that are easily debunked .. and yet you believe them to be true. Even though they are easily proven false, you still cling to them.

WHY? Because the FAKE stories say there is one God and that Jesus isn't God incarnate? That's it? So anyone could make up fake stories about bible characters and claim to have visions from heaven ... and as long as those fake visions say that there is one God then you'll buy it?? If so - then you are the muslim version of Colbe. Totally illogical.

This is absolutely surreal.
I'm hearing christianity claiming they are genuine and islam claiming it's genuine...and they both smack the word "logic" around like a badminton bird.
Based on the arguements I'm hearing, neither group can lay claim they even know what that word means.
The amount of "handwavium" going back and forth here is staggering.

-Amitabha-

logical7
you gave quotes with very choosy language used in translation and other stand alone verses.

No ... they are just quotes from the Qu'ran and I even showed that Imams do indeed interpret them as that Muslim men can, and should, beat women. And the rest are there as well. Do not take non-Muslims as friends. How do you square THAT ONE with you supposedly being engaged to a Christian??

I admit that the verses you quoted are in Qur'an but ...

No 'but's .. they are there. They are followed literally by the Imams.
The verses aren't all 'help orphans and widows' like you tried to paint it.

The 'God' of the Old Testament is a mess.
The 'God' of the Qu'ran is just awful as well.


SIde note - I"m still ignoring out-of-place interjected (and highly erroneous) trolling comments.
DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.