What is so scary about thinking, or discovering, your Religion is false?

AfterInfinity
Abrogation. Nuff said.

I had to go look that up. Wow. Interesting. Yep .. that's a big problem.

reply to post by logical7




And if they're BOTH wrong and false? Then what? You'd have to give up your precious "hell" - on which you depend so very much for 'revenge' - SO? THEN WHAT?

Would you start murdering people? Raping women? Eating bacon? Drinking beer? That seems to be the 'way of living' that you detest. I would detest the 'way of living' that you have. If religion died TODAY, I'd carry on the same as I have been all along. WOULD YOU?

:shake my head:

wildtimes
You think that "following rules" is spirituality in action, and I DO NOT.

Thats a problem in Abrahamic religions. They make God into a very legalistic God.
It's like God is out to trick people into ending up in Hell or something.
Either God is a real D*** and he's legalistic, or humans have made Him into a
legalistic mess in order to further their own agendas.

reply to post by FlyersFan


It strikes me that perhaps the reason Christianity is peaceful (or pretends to be) is because it doesn't subscribe to abrogation. Maybe if it had, it would be more like Islam. Mind = blown.

wildtimes
Eating bacon? Drinking beer?

A bit off topic but ..... life without BACON?? YIKES! Everything is better with bacon.
And as for beer ... I used to like a good cold crisp beer. I can't drink it now. (autoimmune).
I miss it.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Thats a problem in Abrahamic religions. They make God into a very legalistic God.
It's like God is out to trick people into ending up in Hell or something.
Either God is a real D*** and he's legalistic, or humans have made Him into a
legalistic mess in order to further their own agendas.

Or maybe humans are legalistic arseholes because that furthers their own agendas.

reply to post by FlyersFan

I'd post your quote in order to make this not a one-word reply, but for some reason the BBC seems to be truncating things and leaving off my own text after typing the quoted bit....

anyway. YES. WHAT YOU SAID.

QUITE!!

AfterInfinity
Or maybe humans are legalistic arseholes because that furthers their own agendas.

that's what I mean ... they've projected their own traits onto God and that's how they present Him ... as a legalistic D**** out to trick people into going to Hell if they don't act follow certain 'laws' exactly.

logical7
killing enemy soldiers in a battle is not murder.

Murder is murder. It doesn't matter if your god told you it isn't and it doesn't matter if you wear matching costumes to make it right. Knowingly taking a life against it's will is called "murder"...end-of-story. I don't care what you've been told to cloud your distinction of this...it's black and white.

The only rape that i can assume anti-islamists can find is a verse telling muslims to approach their wives when they want and thats projected as maritial rape.

So, when they rape journalists at demonstrations, that's just "spreading the love", right?

And yes when you do find an offending verse its an obligation on you to read its explanation and find more rather than pass a quick judgement.
Manytimes reading a few verses above and below the verse in question would give a better and whole meaning.

Translation: "So when I come across something immoral or inexcusable, I do it anyways and ask god to forgive me because I know my neighbor won't."

There's a science of how to understand Qur'an. You need to see all the verses about a certain matter and then it gives a clear understanding.
Using stand alone verses is neither academic nor shows a genuine interest in learning.

So to understand how crappy something is, not only do I have to read ALL the crap and not just stop when I reach a stinky part...but I have to goto a class on how to recognize crap as well?
Sorry Log7 but I know hate when I see it and organized religion is pure vitriolic hate of the worst order...none stand apart from the others if we are measuring in terms of intolerance, hatred and suffering.
Now please...stay on topic or start another thread.

-Amitabha-

reply to post by Eryiedes

So to understand how crappy something is, not only do I have to read ALL the crap and not just stop when I reach a stinky part...but I have to goto a class on how to recognize crap as well?
Sorry Log7 but I know hate when I see it and organized religion is pure vitriolic hate of the worst order...none stand apart from the others if we are measuring in terms of intolerance, hatred and suffering.
Now please...stay on topic or start another thread.

YUP.

That's how he sees it.
As for me, I learned long ago how to not waste my time reading and studying crap. If it stands on its own as crap, it's not worth investigating. RELIGIOSITY, however, is a different subject based in psychology, culture, society, and worldview - and THAT is what interests me. Not the crappy examples of it.

reply to post by wildtimes

It's craps idea of crap. That's how crappy it is.
There ... does that about sum up the 'crap'?

You and Eryiedes have BOTH made me LOL with the above!! Pure gold. Excellent contributions.

log7, where'd you go? I actually wondered what had happened to you over the last week. I'm glad you're back - you're fun to argue with, and we have crap weather right now, so I'm stuck indoors, and too lazy to do housework. So, now I'm having a beer....

oh, maybe he went to prayers. I dunno.....

Still, I hope log7 answers the questions - what if BOTH are wrong, and there really IS no 'hell'?

wildtimes
what if BOTH are wrong, and there really IS no 'hell'?

I think it was Pope John Paul II who said that there is at least some truth in all religions .. and of course the flip side of that is that there is a lot of error in all religions. The near death experiences that I've read (and I've read bunches) all say that none of the religions 'get it right'. If those are accurate ... (and I said 'IF') ... then there are going to be a lot of people in for big surprises when they die ...

reply to post by FlyersFan


I know! Right? It's exciting, I think, to know that one day we shall find out - whether or not we come back to tell the tale. (And even IF we do, knowing not many will "believe" us - no matter how "revealed" the Truth has been to us personally - it's still exciting.)

Tashi Delek,

I realize we are discussing "fear" rather flippantly here on the internet but I wonder how many read what was here but were too afraid to respond at all?
Not seeing the faces of those we interact with is also factor I feel. Discussing this sort of fear is one thing...actually seeing it on someones face while they try to justfy their ideology is quite another.
The most common school yard taunt I heard as a child was: "You're going to he77".
I never knew what to say to that back then but now?
I would say: "You're already in it."

-Amitabha-

reply to post by Eryiedes

I realize we are discussing "fear" rather flippantly here on the internet but I wonder how many read what was here but were too afraid to respond at all?

So do I. Some people, I'm sure, would feel it was blasphemy and dangerous to even indulge the question.

Excellent observation. We've had an interesting discussion with those who WERE brave enough to address it, though!

reply to post by wildtimes

I'm not interested in reading the entire
Koran right now - I'm too negative about the faith that it spawned, just as
much as I'm negative about
Christianity.

i am not asking you to read entire Qur'an and i dont really intend to discuss islam on this thread. I do see the negativity you have and thats what i am questioning, "why prejudging something that you havnt completely understood?" and on top of that criticizing me for being muslim and my saying that you don't understand it all?
The Qur'an is actually a monologue and it asks questions.
The interesting thing is that it clears at the very start that only people who come to it with humility and a real desire for guidance will get it.

reply to post by logical7

The interesting thing is that it clears at the very start that only people who come to it with humility and a real desire for guidance will get it.

Is that double speak for accepting whatever it has to say without question or hesitation? Because that's not guidance. That's dictation.

reply to post by logical7

The interesting thing is that it clears at the very start that only people who come to it with humility and a real desire for guidance will get it.

They said the same thing about the Bible and all other holy texts, including the Tibetan Book of the Dead. Not New.

As for 'judging', the activities going on in the Middle East right now cannot be disputed. The number of refugees in Syria, and the murdering AMONGST each other of the Islamists there are pretty, well, impossible to ignore.

Yes, there are criminals in the West. There are criminals EVERYWHERE. But when a ghetto thug shoots another one in a gang-war, or a kid is killed through the window by a drive-by, it doesn't get plastered all over world news sources.

I think that is the difference. Yes, there are daily/weekly reports of crazy things the Christian Fundies have said, but THEY'RE NOT DESTROYING ENTIRE TOWNS, running people out, poisoning their 'enemies', or cutting off their heads!!

Yes, I'm negative about Islam because of how ISLAM has responded to the current state of the world. Even if 9/11 was an inside job, it doesn't excuse the decades - wait, the CENTURIES -of war and ongoing slaughter of innocents among the tribal populations.

And Islam, as we in the West have now learned, has a bloody, gruesome history (same as Christianity). That behavior among Christians, however, has been MOSTLY STOPPED. Yet Islam carries on with daily suicide or car-bombing, sniping, molatov cocktails being hurled, beheading, honor-killings, and INCESSANT warring between tribes and factions. Your 'peaceful religion' has been anything BUT peaceful for the VAST MAJORITY of its existence.

We in the West read the horror stories of girls burned alive in honor-killings, or acid being put down childrens' throats when they are accused of 'witchcraft' or 'demonic possession,' and the VAST, VAST majority of Westerners are HORRIFIED. Violent fundies probably 'cheer'. I don't know, but those people are generally shut up by others - even with freedom of speech, we are expected to be CIVILIZED.

Even Bah'ais are slaughtered by Muslims!!, for crying out loud. Why? Because the Baha'i aren't worshipping the one God? NO. Because they say they had a prophet AFTER MUHAMMED. And in my opinion - THEY DID. But Muslims kill them because they 'defile the idea that Muhammed was the ultimate, last, and eternally 'real' prophet.

Your culture is FAR too concerned with "justice", "honor," "vengeance", "payback", and other egotistical traits. Sorry. No. That is NOT 'the Truth'.

reply to post by logical7

I do see the negativity you have and thats what i am questioning, "why prejudging something that you havnt completely understood?" and on top of that criticizing me for being muslim and my saying that you don't understand it all?

Then start your own "true Islam" and get the murderous thugs and ignorant Muslims to KNOCK IT OFF.

How am I pre-judging what I see on the news every day? I'm QUESTIONING your 'Muslimicity', and YOU, about your faith. I can do the same with Christians, and often have. The problem is whether or not they, or you, have ever done so!!

You admit yourself that 'they're not practicing Islam'. Well, pal, THEY THINK THEY ARE. And since day ONE of bumping into you here, that's been my call: HEY 'REAL' MUSLIMS! MAKE THOSE FAKERS STOP!!

Has it happened? Nope. Because "those fakers" are caught up in the same "revenge" mode and "honor" mode that YOU harbor. You try to make it about 'politics' and 'economics' and blame the West - when "religion" is supposed to be about personal responsibility.

So...answer the question from earlier - WHAT IF YOU FIND OUT THERE REALLY IS NO HELL?
What will you do then?