A Silent conspiracy of Islam - one extreme opinion

Sahabi
reply to post by Cerridwen

 

Shariah includes all laws, legislation, punishments, and edicts regarding Islam.

Non-Muslims living in Muslim-controlled majorities are forced to pay Jizyah Tax (Non-Muslim Taxation).

By very definition, this single example illustrates Shariah Law being imposed upon non-Muslims.

Your conclusion is incorrect.

Assalaamu alaikum.

The OP was referring to BIGGER consequences, like arms being chopped off, stones being throwned at them and other stuff. I never once dreamt that the OP was merely talking about Jizyah. Hmmm? So pardon me, if the OP only cares about Jizyah, which in English it means TAXES, then please enlighten me - what is the DIFFERENCE between the current TAXES that we ALL have to pay, and the JIZYAH that they are gonna have to pay, in case the Muslims are in the majority? Are you telling, ALL of us, (and YES, ALL means ALL, even MUSLIMS are FORCED to pay TAXES now) are paying TAXES WILLINGLY? Are YOU?

If you are a Muslim, you should not have used the word FORCED. When you do that, you are implying that Muslims are also FORCED to pay ZAKAT. Are we being forced? Are you? You know very well that the monies go to charity - to poor people, to the elders, to people with disability, to pay for the country's infrastructures and so on. So if the Muslims need to pay Zakat, then the non-Muslims should go scott-free? So who's gonna pay for all the facilities that the government provides to you? Only the Muslims? That is fair to you?

Being a Muslim, you should also know that Jizyah is only imposed to non-Muslims WHO CAN AFFORD IT - excluding women, kids and the insanes. And the amount of Jizyah MUST be within the affordability of the said PAYEE. That means, no matter how rich you are, you will NOT be taxed upon your properties, unlike NOW. Now, everyone working adult who gets a certain sum on income per year, must pay tax based on HIS SALARY/INCOME. But in Jizyah, a non-Muslim ONLY pays what he can afford to, and ONLY men have to pay for it. In fact, if he can only afford a small sum, he can pay so. This means, there will definitely be situations whereby the Muslims will have to pay MORE than a non-Muslim, because there is a certain FIXED percentage that Muslims have to pay, per year! And that does not include Zakat that is imposed on gold savings!

So you tell me - you view paying Jizyah as a COERCION? So that means the TAXES that the non-Muslims (and Muslims) are paying now, are NOT in coercion?

As a Muslim, you should also know that when the non-Muslims pay the Jizyah, they are protected by the government/country from any outside raids. They are also protected from any discriminations or intrusions from any parties. No one should force them to convert into Islam. They have EVERY RIGHTS to practice their religion, as much as the Muslims practise theirs.

So this issue of Jizyah, should NOT even be an issue. The Muslims and the non-Muslims, BOTH CONTRIBUTE to the country by paying taxes and zakat, in their own respective ways. Don't tell me you expect ONLY the Muslims to pay for ALL the expenses and then the non-Muslims just use the facilities FREELY, without contributing anything?

If that is so, then you should tell ALL the non-Muslims to stop paying their taxes RIGHT NOW and see where that gets them.

Your understanding of Islam, Mr Sahabi, is FLAWED.

This week I ran into my previous house owner, he is from Turkey and a retired coal mine worker.
(also the very first immigrants 'we did not welcome' to do our dirty jobs we didn't want to do)

His family went to Turkey in the summer holiday like they do every year.
This time his daughter stayed there to marry a guy over there and then he and his
family can come live here, the law here says immigrants have the right to family reunion.

I'm ok with that since my cousin married a Mauritian women, and others of her family
are also married to a Belgian.
But knowing that in time his familly will follow and will do the same bothers me.
They don't socialize with the natives, they look down on you when passing their café
with a can of beer.

I had many muslim friends 20yrs ago, but they stole from me, betrayed me, tried to
steal my car.
I even gave my previous house owner the chance to clean the garage with his friends
when we moved in and my radio got stolen...

@MarioOnTheFly: today Belgium vs Croatia - gl :p

So what if the immigrant population is increasing. The laws of the native land are still the rule of the game.

reply to post by Cerridwen


I am not a Muslim. I used to be a Muslim. I am an Islamic apostate.

In non-Muslim countries, the "concept" of tax is that all shall contribute. (A shame about the loop-holes that the rich and influential sometimes use).

Zakat (Charity) is also practiced by non-Muslims in non-Muslim countries, and they additionally pay taxes.

Muslims are ordained by the 5-Pillars to contribute to charity, but non-Muslims pay tax? So when non-Muslims living under Shariah give charity, their burden is double that of Muslims? This is not conducive of equality.



To illustrate that you are a person of fairness,... will you petition and start a grass-roots movement in non-Muslim countries,.... requesting that all Muslims pay a special religious tax to the non-Muslim governments?





P.S.

Being that I am an apostate of Islam who openly speaks against Islam and the Qur'an,.... does Shariah apply to me? You said it only applies to Muslims. Last I checked, Shariah says that this non-Muslim is punishable by death for leaving the religion and engaging in blasphemy and fitna against Allah and His Messenger.


Assalaamu alaikum

reply to post by laurentius

@MarioOnTheFly: today Belgium vs Croatia - gl :p

Slight off topic...I'm fearful You have a pretty strong team...much stronger than ours. I'm playing x2 at my bookie

reply to post by Sahabi


You prompted me to look up Islam apostates...here is what I found:


Islamic apostates

Who we are:

We are ex-Muslims. Some of us were born and raised in Islam and some of us had converted to Islam at some moment in our lives. We were taught never to question the truth of Islam and to believe in Allah and his messenger with blind faith. We were told that Allah would forgive all sins but the sin of disbelief (Quran 4:48 and 4:116). But we committed the ultimate sin of thinking and questioned the belief that was imposed on us and we came to realize that far from being a religion of truth, Islam is a hoax, it is hallucination of a sick mind and nothing but lies and deceits.

What we believe:

Some of us have embraced other religions but most of us have simply left Islam without believing in any other religion. We believe in humanity. We believe that humans do not need to follow a religion to be good. All we need to follow is the Golden Rule. All we have to do is to treat others the way we expect to be treated. This is the essence of all the goodness. All good religious teachings stem from this eternal principle. This is the ultimate guidance humanity need. This is the Golden Rule.

I wasn't aware of this "group".

I must add...this is sort off my own personal doctrine...which is mentioned on this site...and I agree wholeheartedly...the only rule that needs to be followed. The Golden rule.

You have my applauds for having the strength and courage to search for your own truth.

I will defo read more from the site...


edit:

from the doctrine of Islamic apostates:

We are apostates of Islam. We denounce Islam as a false doctrine of hate and terror. However we are not against Muslims who are our own kin and relatives. We do not advocate hate and violence. Muslims are the main victims of Islam. Our goal is to educate them and let them see the truth. We are against Islam and not the Muslims. We strive to bring the Muslims into the fold of humanity. Eradicate Islam so our people can be liberated, so they can prosper and break away from the pillory of Islam. We would like to see Islamic countries dedicate more time to science and less time to Quran and Sharia. We would like to see them prosper and contribute to human civilization. We would like to see the draconian laws of Islam eliminated and people are treated humanely. We strive for freedom of beliefs, for equality of gender and for oneness of humankind.

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly


I find that every time there is yet another Islamic horror perpetuated somewhere around the world we get on the tv some 'moderate' representative, saying "Oh dear, this isn't Islam" But when it comes down to it, that same moderate will back the perpetrators simply because of the gulf between Islam's follower's beliefs and the Western world they have chosen to come and live in - often to live off the benefits from a Western Society they may not get back where they came from, despite all Islam's good doing.

Unless Islam changes radically and comes into the values of Western society held in 2013, there is only going to be more of the same horrendous mayhem its followers believe in perpetuating in the un-Islamic world. They think they will outbreed us and take over the world, heaven help the world if they do. Anyone for Saudi Royal Family rule? What beggars belief is that hyperthetically were they to outbreed all other societies, nothing would change because Shia would still be fighting Sunni to the death anyway.

There are some good ideas and beautiful art from the Islamic world but before Islam, the Arab world virtually led the word in mathematics and scientific thought I can't help thinking that we would all go backwards under Islam.

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly


Sorry Marioonthefly I meant to post a general comment, not a personal one to your good self. Shiloh

reply to post by Shiloh7

I find that every time there is yet another Islamic horror perpetuated somewhere around the world we get on the tv some 'moderate' representative, saying "Oh dear, this isn't Islam" But when it comes down to it, that same moderate will back the perpetrators simply because of the gulf between Islam's follower's beliefs and the Western world they have chosen to come and live in - often to live off the benefits from a Western Society they may not get back where they came from, despite all Islam's good doing.

That is exactly the bulk of my thread. No, I'm not saying muslims are bad and christians are good or whatever. I'm saying, and Sahabi confirmed from his experience, the moderate ones will stand by and let the extremist have their way..out of fear of a schoolyard bully. This is wastly different in western societies. Extremists are ridiculed and ignored by the mainstream. They have no real power...and they very rarely actually commit anything worth mentioning. Christian extremists are mostly about preaching...we don't allow them to run a mock.

Since the number of muslims is increasing, especially in Europe, one must consider the consequences for the entities in that particular system. Our current way of life is not compatible with the Islamic way of life. And without going in to debate which is better...to each his own.

Cerridwen

MarioOnTheFly
reply to post by Cerridwen

 

You are jumping to conclusions. The issue here is potential over breeding...once the Muslim population reaches majority...there is a danger of civil law being changed. It's how democracy sort of works...if you have the majority...you can change the law.

Nope. You're the one jumping to conclusion. You don't understand how Islam works, even after I have explained it to you. So I'll explain it again for those who do not know, especially you.

You know what? you are right. We Westerners do not understand how Islam works and most of us don't really want to. It is not our religion nor our law.
And here is something else i don't understand. Why are all of these muslims moving to the West if they don't like it? There is plenty of room in Islamic nations. If it was the other way round, a Westerner would be expected to dress accordingly and abide by their laws.
I do however, understand Sharia only applies to Muslims but does Sharia apply to Westerners if they enter an Islamic nation?

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly


Hello again MarioOnTheFly.

Nor was I aware of the group "Apostates of Islam". As a derogatory term, Islam pronounces those who have left the religion as "apostates". Traditionally, the Shariah punishment for apostasy is the death sentence. Thankfully, this ruling has slowly begun to become laxed, as more Muslims are adhering to certain edicts less strictly. Only as Muslims begin to reject parts of their own religion will Islam become less totalitarian, negative, and violent.



I too am a great fan of the 'Golden Rule'. Such a simple concept can change the world instantly, if followed in mass. Personally, I prefer to modify the 'Golden Rule' as, "Love and treat others as you Love and treat yourself, because others are yourself." This slight re-conceptualization is rooted from personal realization,... the basis of the 'Golden Rule' should be more highly encouraged in popular culture. Cheers to hope!

Lumpy79

Cerridwen

MarioOnTheFly
reply to post by Cerridwen

 

You are jumping to conclusions. The issue here is potential over breeding...once the Muslim population reaches majority...there is a danger of civil law being changed. It's how democracy sort of works...if you have the majority...you can change the law.

Nope. You're the one jumping to conclusion. You don't understand how Islam works, even after I have explained it to you. So I'll explain it again for those who do not know, especially you.

You know what? you are right. We Westerners do not understand how Islam works and most of us don't really want to. It is not our religion nor our law.
And here is something else i don't understand. Why are all of these muslims moving to the West if they don't like it? There is plenty of room in Islamic nations. If it was the other way round, a Westerner would be expected to dress accordingly and abide by their laws.
I do however, understand Sharia only applies to Muslims but does Sharia apply to Westerners if they enter an Islamic nation?

Well said lumpy, that is exactly how I feel.

Sahabi
reply to post by Cerridwen

 

I am not a Muslim. I used to be a Muslim. I am an Islamic apostate.

In non-Muslim countries, the "concept" of tax is that all shall contribute. (A shame about the loop-holes that the rich and influential sometimes use).

Zakat (Charity) is also practiced by non-Muslims in non-Muslim countries, and they additionally pay taxes.

Muslims are ordained by the 5-Pillars to contribute to charity, but non-Muslims pay tax? So when non-Muslims living under Shariah give charity, their burden is double that of Muslims? This is not conducive of equality.



To illustrate that you are a person of fairness,... will you petition and start a grass-roots movement in non-Muslim countries,.... requesting that all Muslims pay a special religious tax to the non-Muslim governments?

 

P.S.

Being that I am an apostate of Islam who openly speaks against Islam and the Qur'an,.... does Shariah apply to me? You said it only applies to Muslims. Last I checked, Shariah says that this non-Muslim is punishable by death for leaving the religion and engaging in blasphemy and fitna against Allah and His Messenger.


Assalaamu alaikum

edit on 10/11/13 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)

OHHHHHHHHHHHH. You are an APOSTATE. No wonder you speak BADLY of Islam. LOL. I should have known! No real Muslim would speak badly against his own religion. ;-)

Ok, you want to have a FAIR discussion? Fine by me, but first of all - STOP BEING SLANDEROUS. If you can't show my religion some respect, then at least show ME some respect. Else, this discussion will be futile because no matter what I say, you will still BADMOUTH Islam. And THAT, is a FACT.

First of all, you no longer have the rights to give me a SALAM. That is SPECIAL for MUSLIMS ONLY. So since you are NOT a Muslim anymore, please show my religion some respect by refraining from saying it. If you insist in doing so, I should reply you - ALAIK.

Secondly, I don't know what you had learnt in Islam while you were a Muslim, because you CLEARLY had it wrong. The word ZAKAT, is ONLY usead by Islam and MUSLIMS. No non-Muslims are using the word zakat and NEVER will be. If they are paying monies to the government, theirs are called TAXES, NOT ZAKAT because ZAKAT ARE ONLY FOR MUSLIMS. Taxes are for non-Muslims like YOU. So please get your facts RIGHT before you say something which can be determined as being SLANDEROUS. If you say they also pay monies for charity, then FIND YOUR OWN WORDS for that type of payment AND STOP USING THE WORD ZAKAT. Don't misuse the word.

Thirdly, please tell me which country you are talking about, regarding non-Muslims paying the so-called zakat? And tell me, who established that rule that says THEY MUST PAY TO CHARITY? Muslims pay zakat because their religion says so. If they don't want to pay the zakat, they must then pay taxes (eg. in my country, Muslims who pay zakat are no longer entitled to pay income tax, so they can actually choose either one, but of course, for Muslims, it's supposed to be Zakat, and not taxes).

Fourthly, you said: 'Zakat (Charity) is also practiced by non-Muslims in non-Muslim countries, and they additionally pay taxes.' Ok. So what does this have to do with Islam? They are NON-MUSLIMS, living in a NON-MUSLIM country, so where does Islam fit in this? If their country asks them to pay to charity, why blame the Muslims? BLAME THEIR GOVERNTMENT THEN! What does that have to do with the Muslims??? You can blame the Muslims IF the non-Muslims are living in an Islamic country and they are asked to pay ZAKAT, besides paying taxes. If this EVER happens to non-Muslims living in a Muslim country, then YES, YOU CAN BLAME THE MUSLIMS! But non-Muslims living in a non-Muslim country? What the ...???

Fifthly (is there such an English word as Fifthy? LOL), you said: 'Muslims are ordained by the 5-Pillars to contribute to charity, but non-Muslims pay tax? So when non-Muslims living under Shariah give charity, their burden is double that of Muslims? This is not conducive of equality.'

Yes, the Muslims are ordained to pay Zakat. Non-Muslims pay taxes. This law in itself, already differentiates between the Muslims, and the non-Muslims. What do you want then? Do you want the non-Muslims to pay Zakat too? LOL. And why do you say 'non-Muslims living under Shariah give charity, their burden is double that of Muslims?' What NONSENSE are you talking about? Why do non-Muslims have to pay DOUBLE? Did you not read my lengthy previous post? I just wrote in my previous post that non-muslims do NOT pay Zakat. They only pay Jizyah or taxes. Zakat are only for Muslims. If they want to pay to charity, they must do it under THEIR OWN WILL. The Shariah law does NOT coerce any non-Muslim to pay zakat. So therefore, the non-Muslims and the Muslims, are PAYING EQUALLY. The Muslims pay zakat, the non-Muslims pay taxes. WHERE IS THE DOUBLE STANDARD THAT YOU CLAIMED?

If you were referring to the non-muslim paying to charity WHILE LIVING in a NON-MUSLIM COUNTRY, BRING IT UP TO THEIR RESPECTIVE GOVERNMENT THEN! WHAT DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH ISLAM??? Unless they're living in a Muslim country and are being forced to pay zakat, THEN, we have an issue. Do you understand this???

And I have already explained to you, that if EVER there was to be a REAL Islamic country, and there are non-Muslims living in that country, the jizyah that they pay, may be LOWER than what the Muslims have to pay. Because the Muslims are OBLIGED to pay the zakat and the percentage is based on their whole income for a year. And this zakat is an OBLIGATION to ALL genders, including MEN and WOMEN. But for non-Muslims, ONLY MEN should pay the jizyah.You don't see that this is HEAVIER to Muslims, than to non-Muslims?

Muslims - men and women pay zakat.
Non-muslims - only Men pay jizyah. Women are exempted.

Which one is heavier - men and women, OR men ONLY? If you still have some SENSE and LOGIC in you, of course you would have said, men and women BOTH paying zakat are much more HEAVIER than MEN ONLY (paying jizyah).

Therefore, if a non-Muslim husband and wife are both working, ONLY THE MAN has to pay jizyah. The wife's money is safe and she can then keep the money for other usage. She can help her husband to keep the money for investment (eg.) in fact.

But if a Muslim husband and wife are both working, they BOTH MUST pay zakat. BOTH OF THEM. You don't think this is HEAVIER to the Muslims? So can I say, ISLAM IS NOT FAIR TO THE MUSLIMS???? How come only non-muslim men pay the jizyah, while muslim men and women BOTH need to pay zakat? Furthermore, non-muslim are NOT taxed based on their possession/income/money, but they are INDIVIDUALLY TAXED. The jizyah will NOT even touch whatever possession they have. So even if they are damn rich, the jizyah CANNOT touch their properties! And what it makes it more interesting, if they cannot afford to pay the jizyah, THEY SIMPLY DON'T HAVE TO! This is not FAIR enough to you?

Sahabi
reply to post by Cerridwen

 

I am not a Muslim. I used to be a Muslim. I am an Islamic apostate.

In non-Muslim countries, the "concept" of tax is that all shall contribute. (A shame about the loop-holes that the rich and influential sometimes use).

Zakat (Charity) is also practiced by non-Muslims in non-Muslim countries, and they additionally pay taxes.

Muslims are ordained by the 5-Pillars to contribute to charity, but non-Muslims pay tax? So when non-Muslims living under Shariah give charity, their burden is double that of Muslims? This is not conducive of equality.



To illustrate that you are a person of fairness,... will you petition and start a grass-roots movement in non-Muslim countries,.... requesting that all Muslims pay a special religious tax to the non-Muslim governments?

 

P.S.

Being that I am an apostate of Islam who openly speaks against Islam and the Qur'an,.... does Shariah apply to me? You said it only applies to Muslims. Last I checked, Shariah says that this non-Muslim is punishable by death for leaving the religion and engaging in blasphemy and fitna against Allah and His Messenger.


Assalaamu alaikum

edit on 10/11/13 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)

Now, let's look at the Muslim sides, shall we? The Muslims have to pay NOT only the income zakat, but ALSO a certain percentage of their properties as a whole. If they have a business, then they must pay BUSINESS ZAKAT. If they keep gold as investment, then they MUST pay a certain percentage of zakat for the gold. They don't simply just pay 1 kind of zakat like the non-muslims who only have to pay the jizyah! There are ALL kinds of zakat in Islam! You think these are not heavy for the Muslims???

So, there! Read and WEEP! And you dare to say that there is NO EQUALITY in Islam? You left Islam, that is your problem. But don't you dare to slander the religion just because of your own IGNORANCE of the teaching of Islam, the one that you did NOT give a chance to learn FULLY about.

Next, you say: 'To illustrate that you are a person of fairness,... will you petition and start a grass-roots movement in non-Muslim countries,.... requesting that all Muslims pay a special religious tax to the non-Muslim governments?' And again, I ask you, what is this nonsense you have? Why would I want to intervene in how a government rules their country?

It's up to that country, to do whichever they deem fit. If the non-Muslim government sees it fit that ALL citizens should pay a certain sum of money to charity, regardless of what religion they possess, THEN SO BE IT! Gotta respect the law of others ya know! The government knows what they're doing, let them do their job! If you're not happy about it, go complain to THAT government of that particular country. Go write a petition, as you say!

But if this happens in a Muslim country, whereby the non-muslims are forced to pay the zakat (and have to pay jizyah at the same time), YES, I will petition! In fact, I will protest. Because the non-muslims have their rights, and these rights have been promised unto them. You CANNOT break promises and the rules/laws of Islam, just because the non-muslims are in the minority. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

And last but not least, you say: 'Being that I am an apostate of Islam who openly speaks against Islam and the Qur'an,.... does Shariah apply to me? You said it only applies to Muslims. Last I checked, Shariah says that this non-Muslim is punishable by death for leaving the religion and engaging in blasphemy and fitna against Allah and His Messenger.'

If you want, I can tell you 2 versions of the story. The first version, is the version that is accepted by the majority of Muslims. The second version, is the version that is accepted ONLY by a small number of Muslims.

Now, the first version. According to the hadeeths, the Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) says to kill any apostate who leaves Islam after embracing it. However the person should be given some time to repent. If he refuses to repent, only then, he should be killed. This is because apostasy is most dangerous, to the followers of any religion. If anyone converts to Islam and later leaves Islam at any time as he wishes, then people would not take the religion SERIOUSLY. People would go in and go out of the religion, as they wish. In the end, religion will be treated like a toy, and no one will take it seriously anymore. Eventually, religion itself, will collapse.

Killing apostates is not only mentioned in Islam, but also in CHRISTIANITY and JUDAISM. If you are a Christian, or a Jew, I hope you are not surprised by this FACT.

Now, on to the second version of the story. I am going to share with you excerpts from a link, that can be read HERE. theamericanmuslim.org...

I quote:

'Apostasy has been mentioned several times in the Qur’an, but it never talks of punishment for the crime in this world.” The learned scholar mentions three Ayaat (verses) from Qur’an on apostasy (Al-Baqara 217, Muhammad 25-27 and Al-Maida 54) and then says that none of these Ayaat prescribes any punishment for that though these Ayaat pass strictures on the people who commit it. There are several other Ayaat on the same issue and none of them prescribes either death penalty or any other punishment for apostasy in this world. Apostasy is mentioned repeatedly in Qur’an but no punishment is prescribed.

Misinterpretation of the hadith, Man baddala Dinahu faqtuluh (kill him who changes his religion) has caused the problem. This order has been made to look general and permanent, though it was said in a particular circumstance for a particular group. Shaykh Subhani writes that this order was made to counter a plan prepared by Jews of Madinah. They had premeditated that some of them embrace Islam for some time and then return to their old religion. Then some other people do the same. It was aimed to create restiveness among Muslims against their own leadership so that the strong Muslim unity should start collapsing. It was made clear in Qur’an in (Aal Imran, 3: 72-73).

To oppose this scheme, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) ordered his companions to act in such a manner. Despite this order, extensive investigations were made to determine that the case was true and the person concerned was given sufficient time to make clear before the sentence was carried out.'

*'There was a case at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) where a man came to him in three consecutive days and told him that he wanted to apostate. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never took any action against him, and when the man finally left Madina, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never sent anyone to arrest him, let alone kill him.'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sahabi
reply to post by Cerridwen

 

I am not a Muslim. I used to be a Muslim. I am an Islamic apostate.

In non-Muslim countries, the "concept" of tax is that all shall contribute. (A shame about the loop-holes that the rich and influential sometimes use).

Zakat (Charity) is also practiced by non-Muslims in non-Muslim countries, and they additionally pay taxes.

Muslims are ordained by the 5-Pillars to contribute to charity, but non-Muslims pay tax? So when non-Muslims living under Shariah give charity, their burden is double that of Muslims? This is not conducive of equality.



To illustrate that you are a person of fairness,... will you petition and start a grass-roots movement in non-Muslim countries,.... requesting that all Muslims pay a special religious tax to the non-Muslim governments?

 

P.S.

Being that I am an apostate of Islam who openly speaks against Islam and the Qur'an,.... does Shariah apply to me? You said it only applies to Muslims. Last I checked, Shariah says that this non-Muslim is punishable by death for leaving the religion and engaging in blasphemy and fitna against Allah and His Messenger.


Assalaamu alaikum

edit on 10/11/13 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)

Now, since there are 2 versions of this story, you can choose to believe either one, or neither. It's your choice. I, personally, believe in the second version. I believe that Muslims should NOT kill any apostate/murtadd, because God will definitely deal with them in the hereafter. Also, because the Quran says, the imposition of the death penalty, is ONLY permissible, under 2 conditions.

1. Where the person is guilty of murdering another person (death punishment).
2. Where a person is guilty of creating unrest in the country, like being involved in activities that create unrest in a society, for example activities like terrorism, etc.

The Quran says: 'Whoever kills a person without his being guilty of murder or of creating unrest in the land, is as though he kills the whole of mankind.' (Al-Ma?idah, 5: 32)

You can continue to talk badly about the religion you have left. But the religion itself does not change. The laws still stay the same since more than 1400 years ago. The only difference is, how you view the religion according to YOUR OWN perspective.

Lumpy79


You know what? you are right. We Westerners do not understand how Islam works and most of us don't really want to. It is not our religion nor our law.

Correct. So by that VERY same argument, why JUDGE of something that you have no idea of? It's like claiming apples are sour, but you have never even eaten any!

Lumpy79
And here is something else i don't understand. Why are all of these muslims moving to the West if they don't like it? There is plenty of room in Islamic nations.

For several reasons. Among them are:

1. Wanting to be free from the clutches of Islam (especially the young ones, who don't follow the religion closely).
2. Economy-wise (most of the immigrants come from poor/developing countries). They're hoping to be economically stable, after moving to a western country. If the economy in their country is good or flourishing, why would they want to leave their land in the first place? You think it's easy to leave your home country and be far away from your loved ones? Why don't you try it and let us know how you feel.
3. Education (the western offers better universities, better education. When they come back to their home country, they could teach their people and ensure an educated generation, after generation, for their people. Apart from that, higher education means higher salary. Higher salary means a BETTER LIFE for them).

Lumpy79
If it was the other way round, a Westerner would be expected to dress accordingly and abide by their laws.

If you had Saudi Arabia in your mind when writing that, I'll have you know, I don't agree with A LOT of Islamic practises there. Pardon me for saying this, but the Muslim Saudis are ones of the most hypocrite Muslims in the world.

Lumpy79
I do however, understand Sharia only applies to Muslims but does Sharia apply to Westerners if they enter an Islamic nation?

I have explained this in length in 3 of my previous posts. Do read them up if you wish. Additionally, I'd like to say, if you enter ANY country at all, regardless of whether it's a Muslim country or not, you STILL have to respect the laws in that country, isn't it? Or face penalties or punishment. The same with a Muslim country. You need to respect the laws there. Therefore, dress properly (if you come to my country, you can dress as you wish and no body would have anything against you, UNLESS you show up naked in public places!) and behave as you would, in your own country.

The Shariah laws are NOT applicable to you, UNLESS you plan to stay. Even then, you would only need to pay the jizyah (taxes). But this ONLY happens in a REAL Muslim country. Nowadays, there are NO real Muslim countries that follow the teaching of Islam, COMPLETELY. NONE. Not even my country. However, should ANY Islamic country in particular says that a non-muslim foreigner must pay the jizyah (taxes), then you would have to abide by the law. It's just the same if you would go to any non-muslim country, and they ask you to pay taxes. You would still have to abide by the rules, no?

Like, if you wanna visit New Zealand, you gotta have a return-ticket. If you don't have one, they won't let you in. So ensure that you have a return-ticket, and they'll let you in. Simple as that. The point is, wherever you go, you respect and abide the laws of that specific country, be it a Muslim country or not. It goes to show that we are civilized human beings who know how to give respect and EARN one, in return.

Shiloh7
reply to post by MarioOnTheFly

 

I find that every time there is yet another Islamic horror perpetuated somewhere around the world we get on the tv some 'moderate' representative, saying "Oh dear, this isn't Islam" But when it comes down to it, that same moderate will back the perpetrators simply because of the gulf between Islam's follower's beliefs and the Western world they have chosen to come and live in - often to live off the benefits from a Western Society they may not get back where they came from, despite all Islam's good doing.

Unless Islam changes radically and comes into the values of Western society held in 2013, there is only going to be more of the same horrendous mayhem its followers believe in perpetuating in the un-Islamic world. They think they will outbreed us and take over the world, heaven help the world if they do. Anyone for Saudi Royal Family rule? What beggars belief is that hyperthetically were they to outbreed all other societies, nothing would change because Shia would still be fighting Sunni to the death anyway.

There are some good ideas and beautiful art from the Islamic world but before Islam, the Arab world virtually led the word in mathematics and scientific thought I can't help thinking that we would all go backwards under Islam.

Oh dear, Please see the similarities in the following statements. I would like you to imagine a pile of pins in rows and columns, all connected by small flexible rods to each other. You see when one pin gets raised all of them will be moved. the nearest will be close to the top while the majority will be forced to stay near the bottom. As you can see this is the system we live under. America being the top pin allows countries like Israel or Britten to be a close second. While their success lays on the back of many other countries to include parts of Africa and the Middle East. Therefor, the countries in the Middle East are actually forced into a lower bracket of living and must continue to do so if America will thrive as it once did. However if you were to try to force a nearby pin (which is near the bottom) to the same level as america, then you can feel the resistance from the original head pin. The same applies in today's world. You might tell yourself that this is not how the world works. Well I would then like you to ask yourself as to where the resources come from which allows each individual American to drink as much Soda in 1 day as an entire family drinks in a week in these other countries? Or how is it possible that most Americans have more food in their fridge/kitchens as to the amount of nearly a months worth in some of these others countries? The resources must come from somewhere, and it comes from the same people we ensure to keep at a low standard of living in order to raise ours.

Thus the teachings of Islam have more merit than any other civil law. This is because following the teachings of Islam will not allow such a system to be put in place. The fact that Queen Elizabeth as enough money to rid the world of hunger and is not doing so goes against Islam. The fact that such a large Majority are fearful of Islam concludes the fact that Islam is misunderstood by the masses. And just like what you see on the news, If the entire media is stating the Obamacare is good and that replublicans are the ones shutting down the govt. well, you can see then that the republicans are willing to negotiate however the president does not wish to do so. Usually when the media is all for something, it isn't any good. And the Media is always against Islam and will continue to be so because of what it can do to this world. It will completely destroy the entire working the NWO and the distribute the wealth of the Elites forcing them the sure "evil" of giving charity and paying fair taxes like normal people.

Cerridwen

Lumpy79


You know what? you are right. We Westerners do not understand how Islam works and most of us don't really want to. It is not our religion nor our law.

Correct. So by that VERY same argument, why JUDGE of something that you have no idea of? It's like claiming apples are sour, but you have never even eaten any!

If i came across as judgmental of Islam i appologise because to me, i didn't try to be.
But what you say in this quote sums it up nicely. We hear every day in the media how Muslims in Britain despise our culture of drinking, partying, the way the women dress, etc. That's fine because i understand it is a culture in which most have not experienced and can be daunting and alien.
This is exactly what you quoted above and we hear it every day. You are JUDGING us without tasting the apples. This argument can go on for ever though, we are culturally miles apart and suddenly squashed together on a tiny island, what else was going to happen?

Thus the teachings of Islam have more merit than any other civil law. This is because following the teachings of Islam will not allow such a system to be put in place. The fact that Queen Elizabeth as enough money to rid the world of hunger and is not doing so goes against Islam.

Oh come on, look here iquranic.com... The Queen has 350million.

The majority of Muslims migrate from their homeland because of poverty, but leading Muslims in those countries have personal wealth of up to 18 billion. Why can't they share the wealth with their Muslim brothers and enrich lives? Is it not the Islamic way as you describe?

No, they don't and you come to the West, which accepts you and you get the life you wanted, so stop the hate.

Lumpy79

Thus the teachings of Islam have more merit than any other civil law. This is because following the teachings of Islam will not allow such a system to be put in place. The fact that Queen Elizabeth as enough money to rid the world of hunger and is not doing so goes against Islam.

Oh come on, look here iquranic.com... The Queen has 350million.

The majority of Muslims migrate from their homeland because of poverty, but leading Muslims in those countries have personal wealth of up to 18 billion. Why can't they share the wealth with their Muslim brothers and enrich lives? Is it not the Islamic way as you describe?

No, they don't and you come to the West, which accepts you and you get the life you wanted, so stop the hate.

Not hating at all, but could you Imagine if they did "share the wealth" where would that place America? Considering that most of the money owned by the Middle East Is RIGHT HERE IN AMERICAN BANKS. I am an American, served my country for 4 years and am a patriot. However the Middle East is a conquered land, all look up to America and the west because of their wealth. However those in power would immediately declare war on any king or person to do such an act, and you know this to be true. If one of those "Muslim brothers" were to share their wealth with their people, it would be a declaration of war against the central banks of the west and the elites. Do you really think the world would allow for such a generous act? Look around you bud, the world is upside down.