Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ'

ltheghost
uk.prweb.com...

Ran across this article today. Thoughts? And what are the ramifications if it is true? Or is this just sloppy research or something to discredit an entire religion?

I'm certain they will make money from it.

The majority of scholars are not going to buy this, because at best it is shaky and based on HIGHLY circumstantial evidence. There is absolutely ZERO direct evidence to support this. It is quite obvious when this guy talks about how he drew his conclusions. And I do not understand some of his claims. For instance, take this passage:

"When the Romans had exhausted conventional means of quashing rebellion, they switched to psychological warfare. They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system. That's when the 'peaceful' Messiah story was invented. Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to 'give onto Caesar' and pay their taxes to Rome."

First of all, the Romans NEVER exhausted conventional means of quashing rebellion. Second, zealous Jewsish missionary activity? Really? Do I even need to explain why that doesn't make any sense? And IF this was some fabricated religion, Christianity, WHY IN THE WORLD did the Romans heavily persecute the religion, multiple times throughout the Roman Empire? And why would they allow the Jews to persecute Christians themselves? Christians were HIGHLY persecuted, CONSTANTLY, until Emperor Constantine. That is a FACT.

And this is not even getting to the other problems that are likely to be present when he continues along this line of reasoning. The truth is that there are enough sources from the 1st century AD to establish that Jesus was most likely a real person. There were so many people connected to Him in one way or another, and so many various pieces of information passed on to others, that the burden of proof is definitely on those who claim Jesus did not exist as an actual historical figure.

But anyway, I am blown away that any actual scholars would take this person seriously, based solely on the discrepencies that I mentioned earlier in this post.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

Atwill sounds like he's about as bright as . . . a slug . . . wellllllll, a bit of hyperbole but he deserves it. LOL.

Here's Christ Putnam's response:

www.logosapologia.org...

.

And this video documents the early Creed that affirms the Resurrection and Shreds Atwill's blather:

Resurrection Evidence: That Amazing Creed in 1 Corinthians 15



I realize that such documentation will only mean something to the truly scholarly and not at all to those who worship at the altar of their own arrogance, biases and hostilities to God, Jesus, Christianity and Christians.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


no idea why the double post.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I was offended at the whole idea of

GODSPELL

initially.

Then . . . finally . . I 'got it.'

And it blessed me.

DeadSeraph
reply to post by ltheghost

 

Here we go again with Joseph Atwill's nonsense. I have spent far too much time looking into his claims and debunking them on ATS, and I have no interest in doing so again. What I have discovered is concrete proof that his claims are completely bogus, but no amount of evidence was good enough for his adherents, and they basically just plugged their ears and screamed as loud as they could no matter which facts were presented to them that effectively dismantled their claims.

Atwill is a snake oil salesman and nothing more. His goal is to sell books, not discuss the truth. All of his claims fall apart under the light of history (history which anyone can research if they are so inclined). The simple fact of the matter is that history indicates that Christ was a real person, and that people willingly went to their deaths in defence of their belief in Him. Nothing Atwill is claiming is "new". All of his claims have already been discussed in his books as well as on threads here at ATS, and I see nothing in the article that indicates he has any "new evidence". Just more of his tired claims that the romans invented Christianity because he says so.

History, logic, and reason all stand opposed to Joseph Atwill and his claims, and the only way it is possible to agree with his conclusions is to abandon all three in favor of Atwill's version of events. This is the textbook definition of confirmation bias, because a person has to want Jesus to be a fable to conclude that Atwill is anything other than a joke. He has basically completely reinvented history to suit his personal agenda. People capable of critical thinking would dismiss him outright because of this, but because he attacks religion people buy his books and parrot his nonsense. If a scientist did this, he'd be out of work and in need of a career change.

All I can say is "THANK YOU". If anyone wants to seek the validity of this guys "claims"... just do a little research on Joseph Atwill... You will get your answer.

reply to post by windword


NONSENSE.

All Creation is not potent enough to destroy Jesus' teachings.

They and He and His blood bought kids will still be standing when this current earth and heavens are no more in existence.

Titus destroys Jerusalem under his father Vespasian and then writes works to replace Torah.

Makes no sense...but write a book with Jesus is the title and you will make money.

reply to post by windword


Evidently you live in an alternate reality with an alternate Paul and alternate letters of Paul.

I see no evidence in any of your posts that you've read a shred of the authentic Paul &/or understood a micro-gram's worth of the wealth therein.

reply to post by boymonkey74


From my perspective, ya'll tend to give abundant evidence

of bowing down worshipfully to brazenly man-made propaganda in virtually every post.

And not just man-made propaganda . . . but rather shallow, foundationless and irrational propaganda, at that.

I'll take Christianity founded on The Rock Jesus The Christ any day over such farcical trash hatched in hell and humans' puny imaginations.

BO XIAN
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

I was offended at the whole idea of

GODSPELL

initially.

Then . . . finally . . I 'got it.'

And it blessed me.

You mean the musical play Godspell, I don't understand but I'm glad that you got it whatever it is. Please clarify, thanks.

BO XIAN
reply to post by windword

 

NONSENSE.

All Creation is not potent enough to destroy Jesus' teachings.

They and He and His blood bought kids will still be standing when this current earth and heavens are no more in existence.

But don't worry, we'll run another creation for the sake of one and all, colors might be a little brighter though, slightly more vibrant and sparkly perhaps.

Jesus Christ - the FREE gift of eternal life that just keeps on giving, in spite of yourself and whether you deserve it, or not! LOL

It's the true state of affairs actually, but we wouldn't know it and would not be able to access it without him and his Great Work and teachings, and neither could we get there on our own steam or by our own doing, it simply had to be done for us so that we might receive it as the free gift that it is, so as to preserve our right relationship with the God of love who it pleased to share his kingdom with all his children.

There's ZERO opportunity for that kind of epiphany however, within the "context" and "framing" of atheism, it's not a possibility, can't even be lost and found again in divinity by losing one's "self" now what a predicament that is, especially when the best you can muster is to shake your fist in anger at God for having the audacity to self-sacrifice and take on full responsibility for the evils of the world while inviting you to join him in eternity already always now and forevermore. What a dilemma. Gee and I used to dislike and loath those cynical atheists, now all I feel is pity, and compassionate sympathetic love and understanding because we're all human and we've all been there done that at one time or another in our ignorance, but God knows how stupid we are and is prepared to forgive us in our ignorance. I can't see him condemning us for things that we could not possibly really know, but then again we do have the Gospel which when you really think of it is as much a curse as it is a great blessing, because it doesn't leave us with any excuses by letting us know what's been accomplished and what is freely offered.

Nevertheless, if I get there, you atheists are coming with me I don't care that you cannot at present begin to fathom it, all the better a surprise it will be for you then, eh?

lupodigubbio

DrReco
reply to post by ltheghost

 

Unconditional love and grace as presented through Jesus Christ is in fact so violent of an act that it causes people to give up their own lives in pursuit of righteousness.

And is this violent act of "courage" exclusive to persecuted Christians? After all, history is full of examples of minorities giving up their lives for their respective ideals. This includes "heathen" like gnostics (which is probably what these persecuted Christians were in the first place), gays, racial minorities, atheists, occultists and pagans of all kinds. I mean, even I would give up my life for certain "righteous" principles.

I guess my point is you don't really need a messianic idol to defend your "truth"

It is not exclusive to Christians or any group of people or religion for that matter. The concept of unconditional love is sewn into the very fiber of mankind, no matter the faith or creed.

What is unique to Christ is the concept of grace. This is why the story of Jesus personally resonates with me. Grace is defined as undeserved salvation. Everything for nothing...

My statement you quoted above was not to highlight the fact that people lose their lives for what they believe is righteous. People willingly lose their lives over all manner of things, foolish or idealistic.

No, I am pointing out that turning the cheek is not a passive act by any stretch. It is a violent act of love as demonstrated by Christ in willfully going to the cross. And if you believe the story, he certainly didn't face that humiliation for himself. No, it was for something far more personal and pressing!

So no, I don't necessarily need a messiah to show me how to love, but I surely need one to cover up the fact that even when I love fiercely, it is still imperfect. Christ doesn't resonate with me just because he was righteous. He resonates with me because I am unrighteous.

I am violently and lovingly confronted each day with my sin, and yet given hope that there is nothing I can do to make God love me less or more. Maybe this is all bull#, but I certainly hope not.

Holy Christ on a bicycle. No one will see this, but I found it appropriate... for maybe the first two pages.

I'll prompt it with, I'm am agnostic, and you are free to believe whatever you want. No judgement.

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by SuperFrog


You are simply wholesale wrong.

Dr Gary Habermas has correctly noted that 70-85% of the QUALITY SCHOLARLY HISTORIANS DISAGREE

with your construction on reality about such matters.

He lists traceable skeptics who disagree generally with Christianity as valid yet firmly disagree with y'all's silly constructions on reality vis a vis the text; the accuracy of the text in describing historical events etc.

You are simply WRONG--VERY WRONG, INACCURATE, OFF THE MARK, . . . you have bet on the wrong horse. Actually, your horse died and never made the finish line.

reply to post by AutumnWitch657


No. I can't say that

BECAUSE I KNOW THAT THE FACTS ARE OTHERWISE.

Our faith is built on a very solid, historically accurate, logical, documentable, durable foundation.

reply to post by BO XIAN


Again mixing up fact with faith....

BruceSleuth

Jesus WAS most hostile against "Religion", but it was because of the HIPPOCRASY of the "religious" he always called into question. And he made a point of that at every opportunity! Pure religion and undefiled before God, the Bible says, is to visit the widows and the orphans in their affliction.

Religion saves NO ONE. Only a personal "relationship" with the Lord Jesus Christ. Then he, by the power of his Holy Spirit, can change you from the inside out. "Religions of Men" can only change the outside! No matter how you dress up the outside of a trash can, wax it, polish it, put robes on it, place it on an alter, lift the lid, and it is STILL a trash can.

Come to Christ Jesus, and let HIM take out the trash!

Grace and peace.

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

He died that we might have RELATIONSHIP with the Father restored.

. . . that we might be joint heirs with Him. . . . giving up . . . as the missionary (can't think of his name at the moment--I met his wife in Taipei--precious saint of The Lord . . . ) killed and eaten said . . .

"He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Right.

I got from it that Christ was and is JOY personified.

He was quite hostile toward the starchy, stiff, narrow, rigid, prissy, arrogant RELIGIOUS PROFESSIONALS of His dusty pathed days.

Anyway--it was a great revelation for one with overmuch OCD. LOL.

curiousme333
Can we be absolutely certain that what is written in the bible to be accurate? Are the scholars and historians who spent years documenting recorded personal accounts of Jesus ways of life true to word? It is said that it is acknowledged that he was a real person, but as to his abilities to perform miracles, there is still some question. WHY!,WHY!,WHY! How is it that this great man who claimed to be THE son of God is still such a mystery??? After all this time and all the study and all the money spent on trying to confirm these histories of the man named Jesus seems to show that maybe history written then, as it is being written today, is orchestrated to show what is needed to maintain a certain degree of civility in man, even though that civility includes self sacrifice, lies, death, and destruction.

Can we be certain? Yes we can, so long as we have eyes to see and ears to hear....but unfortunately most of us are living in a worldly body and only understand/see/hear the things of the world....

It's been said that God "grows" us...much like a farmer....
Worldly farming requires water, earth, wind and light...God's farming requires faith, hope, love, and knowledge.

Faith is our earth - where we're rooted
Hope is our water - nourishment
Love is wind - growth
and for my main point...
Knowledge is light - how we ripen....

To get to that last point of knowledge (which is truth)...You have to have first been planted, watered, and fertilized/pollinated....and then you will ripen

A2D