Do You Follow Aristotlean or Platonic Philosophical Thought Processes In Religious Understanding?

wildtimes
reply to post by windword

 

OMG!!!
Those were hilarious. Thanks for playing

(Aristotle himself would have been pissed off that it took us this long to question him!)
LOL

edit on 10/6/13 by wildtimes because: correct the quote from the vid. LOL!!

So.....
what happened to the OP? Indy??? Are you done here??
*old puzzly face emoticon*

edit on 10/6/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

I am here. I was in and out today. Some ladies invited me to a party for selling some kind of scented wax, but they said it would only work if I bought the warmer....

BTW, the movie I saw last night was Gravity and it was pretty good for 3D.

I was commenting a lot about the Washington DC shooting victim Miriam Carey. I just don't know what to think of that. It really is sad.

I didn't get time to watch the videos on here, but I will.

I don't think I have ever told you what my particular religious denomination is anyway. I believe in Christian mysticism, I don't follow mainstream denominations even though sometimes my parents took us to an independent Pentecostal church. We weren't Oneness, but I have relatives who are snake handlers....

But as far as Christian mysticism is, I believe that one experiences God inwardly. The difference between you and I then would be our perception of God. But as far as extreme fundamentalism, I am not that far. I do have relatives who are.

And no, I am not one of those crazy people who follow all the "Such and Such Blessings" like Toronto or some of the others. I don't believe in the gold pixie dust falling from the sky and giving us gold teeth. I'm not mainstream at all, or what you would think of as Orthodox. Maybe a little Orthodox Quaker.

I don't celebrate any commercial aspects of Easter or Christmas, and I don't celebrate Halloween. People around where I live all decorate and it seems a little disrespectful to Celtic Pagans to commercialize their holiday as well. My brother informed me that he is not Wiccan, he is Celtic Pagan. We have discussions all the time about life, religion and other things. Last night we had a Guinness after the movie. We both commented that the singer last night at that place was not that very good.

Does it surprise you that I am Christian mystic? Well, I don't wear the purple sashes like some do. So all of this mysticism, I already understood, but I think because of the Christian label, it throws people off. But in my view, I believe in God as being a separate and transcendent being that does interact with His creation. I believe that we can experience Him inwardly. That's really the only difference in you and I.

I am glad we all have lives outside of ATS. It's good not to be chained to our computers.

reply to post by wildtimes


As this is a very long post, I will answer only one point. No, I am not angry or irritated in the least. People will tell you that it takes a whole lot to make me angry. You probably would have to drive over my dog everyday to get me angry.

And plus, this is the internet, we can only know each other by our usernames. BTW, my username comes from the TV show Hot in Cleveland. I am from Ohio but currently live in Indiana. But since Hot was taken, I decided that I am almost hot, so it means I may not be hot, but I'm pretty warm.

I did think it was interesting your mom took you to Woodstock, there's not a lot of people who can claim that.

reply to post by windword


Would you believe I have never seen a video of William Lane Craig? I'm such an anti-bandwagon person that I haven't even seen Twilight even though my brother keeps saying I should.

I understand what Aristotle was saying. That's kind of like my example of bricks in a field. But as far as Plato, I don't think in those mathematical terms at all. He seems too rigid to me.

Wildtimes asked me about Indigo Children and Star Children, I simply do not know what to say about them.

The reason I think I identify with Aristotle is that thinking outside the box. From the many experiences I have had in my life, it has led me to my favorite Shakespeare quote "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy".

My experiences with God causes me to know there is God who does love me and cares for me. I spent a lot of years as an angry young adult, but one incident reminds me so much of God. One time I had been fighting and struggling with believing in God and finally when I gave in and accepted, something happened that to this day I always remember and feel.

I got up one morning and decided to pray. I kept hearing the name Varner over and over and I didn't know anyone with that name. I went to work and kept hearing it get more and more impressive and suddenly I felt to pray for Varner right now. So I prayed the only way I could, I simply asked God to help whoever this Varner person was and at that moment I felt something hit my right shoulder and my stomach and it was so powerful it almost knocked me over. I was suddenly overwhelmed by a great sadness to the point I had to go cry in the restroom. Later that day when I got off work and was driving home, I was listening to the news about the school shooting in Jonesboro, Arkansas. When they said the name Brittany Anne Varner, I had to stop driving. I had felt what she felt but was to pray for her that morning. Something had reached me for me to feel her. As tragic as it was, I believe she went to heaven, but her parents would have known that great sorrow.

I said "God, if this is the gift you chose for me, I can't handle it." Another time at the same job work had slowed down so there was very little for me to do. So to pass some time I decided to doodle. I drew a picture of a plane exploding from the nose and said it was TWA. Later that evening when the next shift came in, they were talking about TWA 800.

You have to know I didn't go seeking to build a gift or even researched anything about it. I just didn't want to know anything about it before that. It is so much responsibility that I was not able to process it then, but now I am older and can think more clearly. And these are just two examples that led me to the conclusion that there is God. I don't know why it was ordained for little Brittany Anne Varner to die like she did or why TWA should explode and all the passengers died.

To think outside the box to me means that there is no distance in prayer and the veil between the natural and supernatural is very thin. My mom taught me that one. She might not have taught me anything else useful, but that was the one thing she said that was true.

reply to post by windword


May I rebut here.....



Like sand through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives....dust, wind, dude....

reply to post by WarminIndy


I have also have mystical experiences like the ones you've mentioned, only they are in a dream state and I actually am at the scene. Once, I "died" in a plane crash. It was a fancy private jet, and I was among friends and family. I could see the ground as it appeared to be rising up toward us. We knew we were going to die, and we all held hands and prayed. In my dream, I woke up a tiny baby boy in a crib in Germany. Both my parents were math professors, I had two older brothers, and I was going to be an astronaut!

Another time I was a woman in East Turkey hosting a birthday party for my daughter, who was napping while I was sprinkling powdered sugar on her cake. From the window I saw a black SUV pull up and 5 armed men wearing masks jumped out. I yelled to get all the kids out the back door and threw my sleeping daughter out the back door, into my sister's arms. They got away, but I didn't. I was brutally raped then tied to a chair and a grenade was forced into my mouth. One of the men held his gun to my head and told me "Today is your lucky day, you're going to die". He then pulled the grenade pin and ran. My last thought was "Cowards!"

A few years later, there was a journalist on Oprah who described the attack. She said that the woman's teeth were found embedded in the stove.

I don't know why I'm placed at these events, but I'm guessing it's because the victim shouldn't bear such things alone.

Like sand through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives....dust, wind, dude....

Except, the soul is eternal.

reply to post by WarminIndy


I thought I would point out that Plato believed in the abstract, and Aristotle in the concrete - although I guess it depends on the definition you are using, I think that there has been some shift in the last few years with a lot of definitions.

I am reading Aristotle right now, his book "Politics," and I want to get his book "Ethics." In addition, I need to pick up Plato's "The Republic." Most of Western society is built on Aristotle. He strongly supports a patriarchal system that includes slavery of some sort (although technology like computers especially would fill that role, he even admits this).

I think it is good that both philosophers wrote extensively on what seem to be basically opposite worldviews. I think both exist.

Also, Euclid has a good book called "Elements" that is a text on Geometry - however, it is a great example of how to lay out good arguments, and I think that it is even better that it is based on mathematics (also Geometry is a visual math, so that's a bigger plus for some people) because unlike philosophy, mathematics is less disputed and can help one learn to argue for any side.

P.S. I recommend buying those three books off e-bay and reading them. I have "Politics" unabridged, and it is not too hard of a read.

reply to post by windword


I suppose that's right. They should not have to bear such things alone. I would like to think someone would bear for me if I were to die in a tragic event. Sometimes I wish the cruel people would feel the pain they put others through.

Those must have been some frightening experiences you had. But I have learned in this life that it's not so much about the whats but the whys. It's not for us to know all the whys.

darkbake
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

I thought I would point out that Plato believed in the abstract, and Aristotle in the concrete - although I guess it depends on the definition you are using, I think that there has been some shift in the last few years with a lot of definitions.

Sometimes even philosophers change their minds. Even Jack Kerouac saw different scenery when he was on the road.

By the way the title post is phrased it implies a duality of either /or...Aristotlean or Platoic method however neither(or any ism,anity,ology ete etc) will lead to know the truth of God.

For clarification religion can know nothing of God because it's mechanism is faith/belief.Faith/belief is the opposite of knowing.I am not saying faith/belief is not necessary but that it is impossible to "know" God "by"faith/belief because the mechanism is ill suited.

God is not a man of flesh and blood and cannot be understood by carnal means through the brain.Man can only know God by God revealing through spirit.There is no method for that at all.No religion,philosophy,psychology, science etc...etc... can perceive God.

Not that all of those are useless(except religion being very close) science is as close as it gets to "knowing" Pythagoras would have been closer to the truth if he would have dropped the philosophy/religion.The fact is all of these methods are paths but none lead directly to God and none of them reveal God by their methods.

Again science(and its mechanism of math) is as close as it gets.Math is the bones of spirit.It holds everything together.It is perfect in it's structure and mechanism.God has made everything by math.There is nothing that can't be explained with math except knowing.

Pythagoras flaw was making doctrines of philosophy with his math. Just as religions great flaw is doctrines.Gods purpose is to have man know God,not believe in doctrines of religion or philosophy etc.Those are what separate and are speculative and based in belief.God can only be known.

Faith/belief is a path that leads to a dead end.Gods purpose is to destroy our belief systems with religion being paramount.As long as you believe ....it is impossible to know.Most that are "seeking" God are doing it through faith/belief by religion,philosophy,psychology,science.They all have a purpose by proxy but none of them can cause knowing.Only God can.God is the cause of all things....and that's the rub.Faith/belief systems can't know that.Their perception is the path they are on is the way.In one sense it is because they all lead to the dead end of destruction.... but it doesn't and can't take them home.

This the great mystery of it all.Man cannot know God by their effort because mankind is blind, deaf and dumb.It is all elephant part guessing by belief and calling it fact.Mankind lives in an illusion even when some of those facts are known they deny it.

Quantum physics consistently proves what we perceive as solid mass in a fixed place and time are made of particles that are 99.999999999999999% empty space and those particle have no definite position in space/time or velocity until they are observed and measured.The upside is math is tipping it's hand and at the same time will not let us see behind the veil because it can't.Math is as close to knowing there is but it is missing the catalyst. Revelation by God...knowing.

The greatest mind of our time (and probably ever) Nicola Tesla understood this phenomenon. He said he never invented anything he only discovered them.They "came" to him in fully formed pictures.The greatest music composer Mozart essentially said the same thing.Tesla's in pictures, Mozart's in sound.

Gods revelation is not limited to the great masters.God is revealing himself all the time.Especially in the way 99.9999999999% of all humanity rejects.Through his sovereign will.God is causing everything to happen from a quark in every atom to spiral galaxy formation and the expansion of the known universe.It is futile to believe anything less.Yet the majority of everyone does because it is impossible to "know" unless God reveals it.

There are billions that "say" they believe in God and they do but they don't believe God and infinitely more importantly they don't know God.I am not faulting or judging anyone that's just the way it is.God will cause all to know God.That's Gods ultimate purpose and Gods will WILL be done.It just won't be how mankind "believes"...and that's a VERY good thing.Mankind is blind, deaf, dumb..and very very ignorant of the Truth.

reply to post by WarminIndy

I did think it was interesting your mom took you to Woodstock, there's not a lot of people who can claim that.

Woodstock??

Wow. No. My mom took me to see The Monkees, and their opening act was The 5th Dimension who sang The Age of Aquarius. In Wichita, Kansas.

Holy cow *facepalm* *shakes head*. Quite a difference. Perhaps read more closely. And not sure why you offered up an explanation of your username, but apparently you take the username very seriously; mine was because of the chaos and high strangeness going on in our world at this time. These are wild times. Has nothing to do with my personality or childhood.

Your spiritual/metaphysical experiences were quite interesting. When you think about them, doesn't that lend a tiny bit of wonder to the fact that YOU knew/felt what was going on? THIS is the 'divine spark' that I talk about, that you deny.

YOU knew, in your deepest inner self, about "Varner" and "TWA"....you were connected to those incidents in a profound way. We are ALL CONNECTED. We are the manifestation of God, each and every one of us.

wildtimes
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

I did think it was interesting your mom took you to Woodstock, there's not a lot of people who can claim that.

Woodstock??

Wow. No. My mom took me to see The Monkees, and their opening act was The 5th Dimension who sang The Age of Aquarius. In Wichita, Kansas.

I read that you had missed the Hendrix performance.

These are wild times. Has nothing to do with my personality or childhood.

Reminded me of this...

THIS is the 'divine spark' that I talk about, that you deny.

I deny the definition of a divine spark that makes us God. As I believe that God is a separate and transcendent being, I don't believe that we can ever be God. God is God.

YOU knew, in your deepest inner self, about "Varner" and "TWA"....you were connected to those incidents in a profound way. We are ALL CONNECTED. We are the manifestation of God, each and every one of us.

edit on 10/7/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

We are not all connected, but some have been gifted. And how you use the gift is what matters. In my understanding, we don't all have the same gifts, but as we are part of the body of Christ, then we each have a different function, but not all are in the body of Christ. Which doesn't mean His literal body. But isn't that what some Catholics believe? That through the eating of the bread and drinking the wine that have become literal, that we are a part of a literal body? I always thought it was symbolic, but I'm not Catholic.

If you mean divine spark as in "We are all gods" as in spirits, then that would be a different meaning to me because God is God. Even though God is a spirit, God is still God. even the witch of Endor said "I see gods ascending" to Saul when he asked her to bring Samuel back.

The difference is this God is singular, gods are plural. In that definition, God can only be one transcendent, separate being that has a name and a voice. Jesus was the express image of God, not gods. That's where I stand, I know deeply and intimately who God is.

Genesis 18 proves to me the echad of God. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost appeared to Abraham by his tent in Mamre. Abraham by faith went to search for a city whose builder and maker is God.

The problem that I have with Orthodox Christianity is that they took out Mother Wisdom. I do believe that she is also part of the Godhead, and that she did have a voice. Some people call her Sophia, but her Hebrew name was Hochmah. I am not a Jewish mystic and don't understand the Sephirot, but even they have trouble with accepting a female in the Godhead. They had her at one time but reduced her to non-existence, except for the verses in the Bible that they forgot about her.

In my understanding, why would God create a female that He includes in their image, if there were no female to derive that from? Then they say "God has female and male aspects". Then why call Wisdom a Mother?

So when I refer to God, I am talking about the Godhead. A transcendent being that does not have form like humans, but comprised of a Father, a Mother and a Child. Oh darn, now other Christians are going to get me because I said there is a woman in the Godhead. Oh well.

Jesus said "my mother is she who keeps the will of God". I do not believe for one moment He denied His earthly mother, but that He was saying as God is His Father, He also has a Mother. That is Hochmah. That's how I see it. And even today, Jews still invite the Queen of the Sabbath, I was informed by my Conservative Jewish friend, that the Queen of the Sabbath, was a goddess. SHHH, don't tell them I said that though.

Now people are going to say I am a Gnostic because I mentioned Sophia. OK, now the thread must invite Gnostics.

reply to post by WarminIndy


Yep, Jesus most certainly did have a Mother, it was Earth and physicality, though the church wiped almost any mention of her from Jesus' teachings. How do the powerful become rich? By exploiting Mother nature and selling her resources. By removing her from Jesus' teachings, they secured their ability to take advantage of her and turn her into the whore of Babylon, the one who freely gives herself up for the pleasure of others.

God the Father is consciousness, God the Mother is Earth, and God the Son is the mind. When you have both a body (Mother) and spirit (Father), you get the Son (mind). We are the Word (Father) made flesh (Mother). Jesus was pointing to all of us when he spoke of himself.

Sophia is the physical world, with which we gain wisdom from. Song of Songs is a story about the relationship between the physical and Spiritual. "She" in the story is the physical world while "He" is consciousness.

reply to post by WarminIndy

We are not all connected, but some have been gifted. And how you use the gift is what matters.

It's a pity, in my opinion, that you told God that "you couldn't handle" your gift.

In my understanding, we don't all have the same gifts, but as we are part of the body of Christ, then we each have a different function, but not all are in the body of Christ.

I agree with Plato, that we always knew everything, and that we have forgotten. All learning is remembering. We were "with" God before, and are "with" God here on earth, and we will return to be "with" God after this life, again.

How can we call ourselves children of God, if we see God as a separate entity that dwells outside of existence? You are made in your earthly father's image, as well as your earthly mother's, but you are not your parents. If you did a DNA analysis, traced your genealogy, you would find that, indeed, we are all connected.

So it is with our heavenly father. Our souls are made from the father's breath, and will return to our father on the "inhale". Are souls are always "with" the father, and our bodies are an expression of the father in his physical sense. The entire universe is an expression of the physical body of God.

To me, in my opinion, "Christ" is the oversoul, the great body, of humanity's one soul. No kitty cats need apply. We humans are all part of the body of Christ, in spirit. Christ's body remains fractured, for the time being, as we try to tame our animal nature to align with our spiritual destiny, to be one in Christ. When that happens, look out universe!

Double post

reply to post by WarminIndy


Hmmm.

Interesting ideas, and I, too agree that there is a feminine aspect that has too long been ignored - often denigrated - and frequently "blamed" for mankind's situation. That is one of the MAJOR problems I have with the Abrahamic religions - to relegate the female and feminine to "the cause of the downfall of the human race" is ridiculous, disrespectful, and WRONG on ALL LEVELS.

Your gnostic leanings are interesting - I'd not have expected that, thanks for sharing it.

I stand by my conviction that we ARE all connected, and that we ALL have a spark of the Divine - and that the world (indeed the universe) is a manifestation of God - an emanation - God expressing and experiencing itself.

(The Hendrix performance was ONE OF SEVERAL opening acts that toured with The Monkees that summer. I have very little interest in his music, and I only know of Woodstock from popular culture. My mom would have dropped dead before she'd have taken me to see that!! LOL)

reply to post by windword

No kitty cats need apply.

Wut? I just buried my oldest kitty cat on Friday - and I'm certain he has now joined the other furry companions that I've had and lost over the years. He was to turn 19 on Christmas. I miss him, but I'm relieved for him that he's out of pain and no longer having to sleep in his own urine, or tip over when he tries to walk, or suffer from failing kidneys and hyperthyroidism.

It was painful to make the decision to send him on ahead - but I know I will see him when my time comes - and he'll see me coming across Rainbow Bridge for our reunion.

If my beloved animals aren't with me in the afterlife - that's just cruel. I think all sentient creatures (not bugs, probably not fish) have souls...

Anyhoo. sorry for thread drift.

reply to post by wildtimes


Bugs may be gross but they do have souls I believe, so do fish. Anything that moves and breathes has a soul.

Sorry to hear about your cat. I have a cat on his last leg too, so I know what you mean as far as his condition.

reply to post by wildtimes


I never meant to say that animals don''t have souls or that their essence doesn't continue or isn't a piece of GOD. I just meant to say that "Christ" is all about humanity and the essence of humanity as a collective spiritual body within it's own right.

I believe all animals, and life in general have collective oversouls, and that all oversouls are just a another manifestation of GOD.

I'm sure that your, and my kitties are also "with" God.

reply to post by windword


Okay. Just checking. I thought so, but glad you clarified for me.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Bugs may be gross but they do have souls I believe, so do fish. Anything that moves and breathes has a soul.

Sorry to hear about your cat.

I have a cat on his last leg too, so I know what you mean as far as his condition.

edit on 7-10-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

OH my goodness, so that's why we have a bed bug epidemic in this country. Well I am arachnaphobic and can't even watch them on television.

About Plato saying we forget, that's a part of Genetic Memory that Carl Jung explored. I do believe in Genetic Memory. Even our cellular structure contains memories of our ancestors experiences. Genetic Memory in Science and Carl Jung

I don't have a cat, I have a dog.