euthanasia for psychological distress

EllaMarinaThey could be coerced into assisted suicide by a parent who hates them, despite wanting to stay alive.

You mean, kinda like Hannibal Lector talked his jail cell neighbor next door into swallowing his own tongue?


Yeah?



Ok.




- SN

reply to post by SadistNocturne


I guess I just wouldn't put it past them, that's all.

reply to post by SadistNocturne

So, you feel that you are fully qualified to tell an individual suffering psychological pain that they should try harder? Day after day?

I never said that, you're misrepresenting me.

But, by inference, you would presumably tell such an individual to give up?

Wow. I sure hope you aren't a nurse.

You do realize that you are setting yourself up as Judge and Jury there, right? You're actually sentencing someone to a LIFE of pain.

How do you figure that?

I'm sorry but that's bollocks.

Life is what they've got; how can I "sentence" someone to live? They can always choose to end their life, of course. That option is open to all of us.

You however would sentence them to DEATH.

That makes you Judge, Jury, and Executioner.


I was actually discussing with another poster (before you decided to wade in with your size 15 clauds) the subject of assisted suicide, which I actually support for terminally ill people who can't physically off themselves.

I don't support assisted suicide for the non-terminally ill, able-bodied.

There's no justifiable reason why such individuals should seek - or expect - assistance to end their lives from disinterested third parties, sorry.

SadistNocturne

Personally though, I feel that if a person is in that much pain, they should be allowed to do what they see fit. I realize this pretty much goes along with what you said, and I'm not trying to be combative, I'm just asserting my position on this.

I agree with you. But I do also believe that in most cases, a person who has taken that choice, should be able to do it themselves and not pass the burden on to someone else like a doctor or nurse.

I also believe, that in cases such as mine. Where there are plenty of chances of a good life, if you only try hard and make yourself a life that you like. Suicide should not be an option, at least not an assisted one. Depression and other psychological diseases which are manageable, should never have assisted suicide as an option or way out. Do it yourself if you want it, as said, dont put that burden on someone else, when you actually have a chance of making it.

Terminal diseases, painful diseases and such is another thing.

SadistNocturne

Is it safe to say you were a minor when this happened and your parents found you?

As I wrote, I was 20, so not a minor no. I was immature though. The day after, when I woke up in the hospital and my parents where there, looking at me. I grew up quite fast. The shame I felt when I saw the sadness and fear in my parents eyes was horrible.
So I promised myself no matter what. No matter how sad I am, no matter how much I suck. I will not kill myself until my parents have both passed on.
And now as I said, 5 years later. Suicide is never on my mind. I like my life.

SadistNocturne

I wonder if a person with such a limited experience at living truly has the "toolkit" necessary to handle such a situation. If I were in your parents situation, and one of my children (I have two daughters) took their life, I'd lament the fact that I either didn't realize the extent of the situation or that there wasn't much at all that I could have done effectively (other than providing access to psychiatry, medications, therapy, etc. until such a time that they were able to develop that "toolkit" on their own). Naturally, if there were *any* sign that I was aware of, I'd do everything I could. I have a relative who is a psychologist, and I'd immediately start there.

I surely did not have the maturity or "toolkit" to make that decision with a clear mind. I know that today. My parents never saw it comming. I have never been an emotional person, always been quiet. (I have been living with some bad stuff in the back of my head for all my life. Things that luckily does not matter much to me anymore. There are bad days ofc. But most of the time its all good.)

Things to lookout for? I can only speak from my personal experience. Change in personality. Suddenly being very quiet and closed in. Becomming less and less social, untill the point where you never go see your friends anymore. A growing use of hash/weed. As I became more and more depressed and wanted it to stop, I turned to smoking joints regularly. A joint now and then is no biggie. But several joints a week is a bad sign. A frequent use of weed is usualy a sign of the person needing to escape something. Any abuse(misuse?) of any drug or alchohol is a bad sign(but we all know that.)
Now the really bad thing in a situation where you are depressed is alchohol. Trust me weed is much better in this situation. Alchohol will highten your emotions. In this case the depression will have a field day. At least it did for me. Everything was released at once.
Another thing to watch for is lies. No really, lies. I lied alot. I made up whole stories and scenarios that were believable and which people around me believed. I was quite good at it. I still sometimes catch myself telling a grand lie. That is another way to escape reality. By making your life out to be more interresting and/or better than it actually is, in hopes that someday it will either be true or you will fool yourself into believing the lie. Today I actually have some "memories" that I am not sure are real or one of my many past lies (I blame the mix of depression, lots of lies and weed for these "false memories" mostly weed though).

Lastly:
No I am not villifying weed, I still smoke a joint on rare occasions, It is quite fun with a few mates. There is use and abuse(misuse?)

EllaMarina
reply to post by SadistNocturne

 

I guess I just wouldn't put it past them, that's all.

Ehh, considering the abusage rate of children, I suppose you're right....


Sad, ain't it?




- SN

d

needlenight

I agree with you. But I do also believe that in most cases, a person who has taken that choice, should be able to do it themselves and not pass the burden on to someone else like a doctor or nurse.

I also believe, that in cases such as mine. Where there are plenty of chances of a good life, if you only try hard and make yourself a life that you like. Suicide should not be an option, at least not an assisted one. Depression and other psychological diseases which are manageable, should never have assisted suicide as an option or way out. Do it yourself if you want it, as said, dont put that burden on someone else, when you actually have a chance of making it.

Terminal diseases, painful diseases and such is another thing.

I cannot hope but think that we do agree a fair bit on this topic.

I have contemplated suicide in the past. Given the outcome of my life as it is today, with the blessings (and I am *not* a religious man, but that's the only way I can describe it) of a partner in a wife that NEVER ceases to amaze me and a child that is simply precious, I definitely relate to where you are coming from when you promote perseverance.

My main thought about this though, is that who are we to judge as a society what an individual is going through. Have they hit the wall at the one mile marker on the Marathon, or the 26th ?

Can a personal choice turn out to be the wrong one? Absolutely, but nobody can make that choice for you or but you. Are their consequences to our most mundane actions? Unequivocally so. Is this clean from impacting the lives and emotional state of others? No, it is not that clean.

With regards to assisted suicide, here goes.

I am a computer programmer. My job is to ease the burden of business users mired in their work. What once would have taken an abacus, a heap of dead trees and a writing implement, now can be accomplished with a text interface from a third party, interpreted and massaged, into anything from vouchers to pay bills to a request for paid time off from work. That is my job, I help people.

Much as I see my business partners struggling with their tasks, and offer an easier, simpler and far cleaner solution, I see this as the compassionate role of medical professionals that would assist one with suicide. Where I write code, I am offering the user advice. Where I perform massive queries with the stroke of a keyboard, they can prevent someone from merely achieving a bungled and most likely painful effort that leads to even greater confusion, pain, and chaos in their life and the lives of everyone around them. Imagine going through the pains of attempting to end everything, planning, setup, and execution, only to find out that you missed the target by a fraction of a degree. You were one of the lucky ones, you got to live.

I find it abhorrent that someone who has suffered inflagration (self induced or otherwise) covered head to toe with third degree burns, is "saved". What life is there other than constant agony and pain to look forward to? What if someone thought that was their most expedient and efficient way to end it all? Condemn them to compounded pain? Or let them pass gently.

Much as I am a programmer and help people, were I a medical professional and someone was brave enough and showed the conviction to ask me for help, help I would. I would do it in as respectful, expedient, painless, and foolproof of a manner as possible. Not unlike the few months before my mother died and she granted me full legal medical authority over her in a medical crisis because she knew that nobody else would honor her wishes. Not quite the same, but I cannot help but see it as being strikingly similar.

Is a medical professional that refrains from assisting in suicide a bad person? Absolutely not. We are all comparatively frail humans with relatively fractured psyches. But I cannot help but realize that the absolute act of compassion comes into play for those that take it upon themselves to assist in such a way.


Wordy and long, yes. But 100% my opinion and feelings on the matter. To be taken with a liberal dose of salt.




- SN

CJCrawley
reply to post by SadistNocturne

 

So, you feel that you are fully qualified to tell an individual suffering psychological pain that they should try harder? Day after day?

I never said that, you're misrepresenting me.

But, by inference, you would presumably tell such an individual to give up?

Wow. I sure hope you aren't a nurse.

You do realize that you are setting yourself up as Judge and Jury there, right? You're actually sentencing someone to a LIFE of pain.

How do you figure that?

I'm sorry but that's bollocks.

Life is what they've got; how can I "sentence" someone to live? They can always choose to end their life, of course. That option is open to all of us.

You however would sentence them to DEATH.

That makes you Judge, Jury, and Executioner.


I was actually discussing with another poster (before you decided to wade in with your size 15 clauds) the subject of assisted suicide, which I actually support for terminally ill people who can't physically off themselves.

I don't support assisted suicide for the non-terminally ill, able-bodied.

There's no justifiable reason why such individuals should seek - or expect - assistance to end their lives from disinterested third parties, sorry.

In your humble opinion, it is not ok. I accept that. I do however disagree.

What you see as a gift of life, can easily be seen by the giftee as continued damnation.

What you see in a person assisting suicide as someone who is condemning the person to death, I see as someone who realizes a person is at their point of absolute exhaustion and simply helping usher in the inevitable within controlled parameters.

Odd that you refer to my feet as being size 15...as I wear a 15EEEEE shoe. Big body, big mind, big heart. I couldn't help but laugh when I read you saying that Sorry I've made you feel as though I've interrupted your conversation. I simply don't see this subject the same way you do.

I am perfectly ok with that.



- SN

reply to post by SadistNocturne


I agree with you 100% on the assisted suicide. Especially the part of wether a person chooses to help someone die or not, it makes them no less of a better person or a bad person.
It takes alot of bravery to take the life of another person, alot. It is not something everyone can simply bring themself to do. Some can for the right reasons, others can not do so at all, some can for the wrong reasons. But helping -as your scenario- someone with third degree burns over the entire body, is the right reason. And I would do it aswell. When there is no chance at all but a life of pain and sadness then death may aswell and as wished come quick, painfree and easy.

reply to post by SadistNocturne

What you see in a person assisting suicide as someone who is condemning the person to death, I see as someone who realizes a person is at their point of absolute exhaustion and simply helping usher in the inevitable within controlled parameters.

And that happens a lot for the suicidal terminally-ill, and something we both agree with.

But it doesn't apply to otherwise healthy individuals who want to die.

There aren't all these psychologically tormented people who should be offed by medics....that seems to be what you and others believe, but it's just not true.

There is no malady of the mind that can't be greatly improved by medical intervention.

People kill themselves because they aren't accessing that intervention, that's all.

needlenight
reply to post by SadistNocturne

 

I agree with you 100% on the assisted suicide. Especially the part of wether a person chooses to help someone die or not, it makes them no less of a better person or a bad person.
It takes alot of bravery to take the life of another person, alot. It is not something everyone can simply bring themself to do. Some can for the right reasons, others can not do so at all, some can for the wrong reasons. But helping -as your scenario- someone with third degree burns over the entire body, is the right reason. And I would do it aswell. When there is no chance at all but a life of pain and sadness then death may aswell and as wished come quick, painfree and easy.

I'm glad that we agree there, but otherwise I think we're going to have to be ok with disagreeing.

On a quick note, Kavorkian specifically made (all the time to my knowledge, but might have started out differently) a machine mechanism that was 100% under the control of the person wishing to die. He made the machine, and would stay present when the person was going to perform the action. It was always the person who wanted to die (again, to the best of my knowledge, I am no expert on the topic) who pushed the button to kick off the process. Therefore, it is 100% unnecessary for a medical professional to commit murder in the eyes of anyone. Rather, they are providing their knowledge and guidance to guarantee someone who wants to die that they will die, that they will die quickly and without unnecessary additional pain, and that the effort will be effective. In my eyes, this is facilitation through knowledge to curtail unnecessary pain and suffering, not anything more or less.

To me, mental anguish, although it not only has a high possibility, if not probability, of being relatively "temporary", is 100% identical to physical anguish. When I used the analogy of a marathon runner hitting the wall at 5 miles vs one hitting the wall at oh say 26 miles, it was to illustrate the point and the idea that not everyone has the same capability or potential for pain thresholds. And to top that off, we as "outsiders", do not have even the slightest of a chance of divining what anothers "wall" point may be.

Hypothetical situation. Let's say, you are someone who has managed to stave off the suicidal feelings from the point of not actually acting on them, but those feelings, as well as the issues and feelings involved in creating that scenario for you in the first place is still there. Year after year. No help in sight. Now, let's advance the timeline. Let's say you're 45, and you've been clinically depressed since your teenage years. Some days are bad, some are good, but all in all, it takes it's toll. Maybe a new trial drug makes itself available. You try it after having been sold a bevy of reports promising gold at the end of the rainbow. You even took the medication for an exceeding amount of time, let's say a year, which I personally have had to do to have an SNRI become fully effective. And after that time, you realize it. You realize, it just won't work. The meds aren't helping. Maybe some, but damnit, the pain and misery and self loathing is still there. The anxiety of day in day out grind with no sign of any relief on the horizon. You don't know that a real cure (lets say, a true miracle procedure or drug previously unknown to us, as well as unknown now) is going to be available tomorrow. You take your own life.

Ironic ? Sad ? Unfortunate? A tragedy ? Too little too late? If only? You shoulda? I coulda?

I just feel, having personally experienced at least half or more of what I've described, that if someone WERE to decide to take their life in that situation, that I for one could not blame them in the slightest, let alone feel that it should be "against the law".

I'm not hoping to change your mind, I just thought I'd take a final attempt to put out there what I see as a valid situation. Maybe you'll better understand where I am coming from and understand why I am saying this. Which is the best scenario available between two people when they cannot come to terms of total agreement.

And speaking of which, I commend you for not only coming forward with clearly painful information about your past, but in obviously wanting to help others. It speaks volumes to your character.


- SN

CJCrawley
reply to post by SadistNocturne

 

What you see in a person assisting suicide as someone who is condemning the person to death, I see as someone who realizes a person is at their point of absolute exhaustion and simply helping usher in the inevitable within controlled parameters.

And that happens a lot for the suicidal terminally-ill, and something we both agree with.

But it doesn't apply to otherwise healthy individuals who want to die.

There aren't all these psychologically tormented people who should be offed by medics....that seems to be what you and others believe, but it's just not true.

There is no malady of the mind that can't be greatly improved by medical intervention.

People kill themselves because they aren't accessing that intervention, that's all.

Ok.

Good luck with that approach. I hope you never experience the kind of mental anguish I am describing. It is absolutely debilitating. I've personally dealt with it off and on my entire life. It has destroyed parts of my life utterly and completely. It has made incredible difficulties in keeping my career afloat, let alone in keeping company with those I love.

I consider myself to be in a very special place. But I am also painfully aware of how quickly the tides can turn in this situation. How quickly anxiety and pain can overwhelm. I believe that being so aware of it is what helps me be, in some shape or form, "proactive". I believe that the relationship I have fostered with the one person in the world who refuses to judge me, and simply be there for me, is *THE* single factor in making my life the positive one it is today.

I don't begin to believe that I can make anyone else "convert to my church" of belief. I feel that what we (folks who have experienced the kind of pain I am describing either off and on like I have over long periods of time, or those who have hit their own limit and felt there was no other option available to them) are the members of a club that only those who have experienced this pain can become members of.

I'm happy for you that you are not a member of this exclusive club. That means you have a happier life. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

So, thanks for the chat, but we need to accept that there is no easy answer here. The best we can do is come to a better understanding of each other and why we feel the way we do. That is all.


- SN

What I've read so far, doesn't pick up on "ugly."

Does it occur to anyone that being ugly, in and of itself, the dysmorphia of that, in our world today, is more than most can bear????

My point is what does this tell us, currently, about the space we inhabit and its value? If being ugly, in such a simplistic, surface and topical world can undo someone, what are we worth, then? What we see in the mirror.

I am reminded of being married: when I had a ring on my left hand as a woman, the treatment I received in the world at large was completely different than when I didn't have that ring, and wasn't married: as if to say, some man wanted and claimed you; therefore, you have value.
Just sayin'....
Tetra50

In case anyone is wondering, yes, I agree, it's friggin awful in this current paradigm to be either or both, old and ugly. But, my point is in case anyone missed it, is how sad it is that this is the primary quanta we are judged by, for value, in society. There is something inherently skewed to that.

tetra50
What I've read so far, doesn't pick up on "ugly."

Does it occur to anyone that being ugly, in and of itself, the dysmorphia of that, in our world today, is more than most can bear????

My point is what does this tell us, currently, about the space we inhabit and its value? If being ugly, in such a simplistic, surface and topical world can undo someone, what are we worth, then? What we see in the mirror.

I am reminded of being married: when I had a ring on my left hand as a woman, the treatment I received in the world at large was completely different than when I didn't have that ring, and wasn't married: as if to say, some man wanted and claimed you; therefore, you have value.
Just sayin'....
Tetra50

In case anyone is wondering, yes, I agree, it's friggin awful in this current paradigm to be either or both, old and ugly. But, my point is in case anyone missed it, is how sad it is that this is the primary quanta we are judged by, for value, in society. There is something inherently skewed to that.

edit on 3-10-2013 by tetra50 because: (no reason given)

Uh, is this part of the conversation? Is it germaine to the topic at hand? I've re read your comments, and just don't see the connection....



- SN

SadistNocturne

tetra50
What I've read so far, doesn't pick up on "ugly."

Does it occur to anyone that being ugly, in and of itself, the dysmorphia of that, in our world today, is more than most can bear????

My point is what does this tell us, currently, about the space we inhabit and its value? If being ugly, in such a simplistic, surface and topical world can undo someone, what are we worth, then? What we see in the mirror.

I am reminded of being married: when I had a ring on my left hand as a woman, the treatment I received in the world at large was completely different than when I didn't have that ring, and wasn't married: as if to say, some man wanted and claimed you; therefore, you have value.
Just sayin'....
Tetra50

In case anyone is wondering, yes, I agree, it's friggin awful in this current paradigm to be either or both, old and ugly. But, my point is in case anyone missed it, is how sad it is that this is the primary quanta we are judged by, for value, in society. There is something inherently skewed to that.

edit on 3-10-2013 by tetra50 because: (no reason given)

Uh, is this part of the conversation? Is it germaine to the topic at hand? I've re read your comments, and just don't see the connection....
SN

Dear SadistNocturne:

I am quoting from the OP here:

I had prepared dragees for my new birth, but the first time I saw myself in the mirror, I felt disgusted by my new body. I still had breast and my penis was a fail. I had some happy moments, but finally it became unbearable. I have lived 44 years and it's 44 years too many.


In Belgium, the law allows for the possibility to practice euthanasia in case of psychological distress. But personally I find it hard for someone to actually estimate 'psychological distress', even psychiatrists. I don't think we have the knowledge to really estimate that.

This is what her/his mother said :

When I saw Nancy for the first time, it broke my dream. She was so ugly. I gave birth to a monster, a ghost. I feel no pain and no remorse. For me, this chapter is over, I don't care about her death. I feel no pain, no doubt, no remorse. She was never part of our family, thus in cannot be broken.

So, I hope this answers your question. If it doesn't, well, I can't do any more than that to explain it to you. Hope that's germaine enough to the topic for you. Interesting, your criticisms seem almost like you are the thread author. However, I checked, and you're not. And no one else seemed to have a difficult time understanding where I was coming from with my reply. In fact, it seems this was a pivotal reason for the distress of the individual whose story we were given to introduce the topic at hand, does it not? What did you think this person's psychological distress from the quoted story came from? Hope I have clarified it enough for you to understand, as it is specifically mentioned in the OP.
Thanks,
Tetra50

tetra50

SadistNocturn
So, I hope this answers your question. If it doesn't, well, I can't do any more than that to explain it to you. Hope that's germaine enough to the topic for you. Interesting, your criticisms seem almost like you are the thread author. However, I checked, and you're not. And no one else seemed to have a difficult time understanding where I was coming from with my reply. In fact, it seems this was a pivotal reason for the distress of the individual whose story we were given to introduce the topic at hand, does it not? What did you think this person's psychological distress from the quoted story came from? Hope I have clarified it enough for you to understand, as it is specifically mentioned in the OP.
Thanks,
Tetra50

I genuinely believe I must have offended you in a previous life, as you seem truly on the attack here, where I simply asked a straightforward, honest, and non threatening question.

I did not immediately see the correlation between your post and the OP. I now see how you link it, and truthfully I had forgotten the precise original case behind this thread. Overall, the thread had taken a direction specifically discussing suicide and assisted suicide, not simply addressing anyone feeling unattractive, or the plight of anyone's end result after having gender reassignment surgery.

Now, whereas your comment seemed to merely address issues of physical appearance, I did not immediately draw a connection between this and suicide or assisted suicide. Also, I think you are taking the idea that the transgendered person committed suicide simply over their appearance (yes, they did say after seeing their penis and breast they felt they were a "fail", ie, it wasn't quite the way they had imagined it, a disappointment, they were surprisingly disgusted at what they saw, which was not how they had imagined it would be), but I took a little more from that.

"I had prepared dragees for my new birth, but the first time I saw myself in the mirror, I felt disgusted by my new body. I still had breast and my penis was a fail. I had some happy moments, but finally it became unbearable. I have lived 44 years and it's 44 years too many."

To me, this is a person who realized that after all it took to go through obtaining a clinical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, then obtaining the money for the surgery, then the arduous surgery and recovery, that the person simply realized it did not do what they had hoped for it to do. I believe they felt that it would be something that would make them feel "right" or "whole", and that was not the result. They later (no idea how long later) took their life. So given this, I just could not see the connection you were going for. Apparently you read it differently. Some folks say tomatO, some folks say tomAto.

Frankly, being considered ugly, or thinking yourself ugly, well...I hadn't ever really thought about that as a cause for one wanting to commit suicide. I have been grossly overweight my whole life, and only now at 44 is that actually changing for me. I do not ever believe, even though I also suffered from depression and anxiety at the same time, that I ever wanted to commit suicide because socially I was often (oh, say 99.9% of the time) considered to be unattractive to almost everyone. I was depressed and felt anxiety over other things consistently throughout my life, but never that. I am not trying to say this isn't enough for someone to feel that way, but I did not, and honestly have never seen it from that point of view. So thank you for opening my mind up to a new potential for thought.

Again, I'd like to address the issue of your response. I truly only meant to ask for a little bit of additional information about your post. I was not attempting to attack you, or make an offensive statement.

If you feel offended or somehow attacked, I apologize. It was NOT my intention.

Perhaps a more subtle response, probing me for why I was asking (considering you believe everyone else understood your post just fine, even though no other person has responded since to this thread, nor commented directly on your post on this thread) might have been a bit more appropriate?

"Interesting, your criticisms almost make you seem as though you are the thread OP"

Uh, well, it's a hot topic. I have sincere beliefs as a libertarian (more than a political affluence, it's a personal philosophy to me), and the people who were discussing this with me, well, we were engaged in a debate. Although I do wish I could go back and tone one or two comments down, I do not believe what I said to anyone could be construed as either direct negative criticism or an attack against any one person. Rather, I was looking to make my point. I was firm in my disagreement. I do believe that you do not have the right to tell me what to do, so long as my actions do not effect you or anyone else. This could be body modifications, use of drugs, sexual preference, or suicide, for that matter, inevitably it is your body, your right, your choice. You might notice, I also agreed to disagree at least once, wherein I blatantly also applauded the person for coming forward with the harrowing story of their own personal experience with a suicide attack. I do not believe anything I have said in this thread makes me a bad person, simply a person with fervent and strong beliefs. Yet you're response to my question made me feel as though you were attempting to have it come across this way.

Now, I've got thick skin, but I'm just trying to understand what felt like an intense sense of you being upset with my asking you to further define or relate your question to the OP. Again, my apologies for not catching about two sentences out of a multi paragraph post as it related to your post by re-reading the original post.

And by the way, the person who said "she was ugly", was the transgendered persons mother, obviously distraught over the fact that the person they thought they had raised was no longer that person *to them*. I see this as adding to the transgendered persons negative situation, and compounding it. This was hardly the person feeling that they themselves were ugly (I do not believe this was their intent in "disgusting", rather meaning it as being appalled with the overall results). I believe it was moreso the point of the persons sorrow that their mother saw them as "dead, as a ghost, a closed chapter". I can only imagine having a parent say this to you would be crushing. I don't think the idea that her mother called her ugly had a ton to do with it, but it may have been the icing on the cake, even though the cake was already pretty extensively thick to begin with.

So, again, I apologize if I offended. I hope you can see my viewpoint as I've tried to understand yours.


- SN