Pope Francis: Church's 'obsession' with gays, abortion and contraception means it could 'fall li

Actually, I told you what I would like you to address or did you miss that post? I notice a lack of willingness to really discuss the RCC own statements. We can argue about Mithra a lot because of the lesser amount of evidence in history on it, but there are thousands of statements by the Catholic church and I listed quite a few of them. You can start there.

I am currently looking for more information on the Mithra stuff, and please let's not even bring up Acharya S. as she is a clear propagandist who changes her sources as often as she puts out a new book that shows her sources are post 150 AD.. I will even be happy to give you the Mithra "Pontiff" issue because it is hard to document.

So, deal with:

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

"The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." "The Pope has the authority and often exercised it, to dispense with the command of Christ." Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop. Cap. (The Pope can modify divine law.) Ferraris' Ecclesiastical Dictionary.

"The Pope is of great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even divine laws... The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth." -Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Ribliotheca, "Papa," art. 2, translated.

"The authority of the church could therefore not be bound to the authority of the Scriptures, because the Church had changed...the Sabbath into Sunday, not by command of Christ, but by its own authority." Canon and Tradition, p. 263

We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd ed.

In 1512 Christopher Marcellus said this to Pope Julius II:

Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth (emphasis added).iii

Just recently, in 2004, Bishop Patrick Dunn of Auckland said this:

"It seems that Pope John Paul II now presides over the universal Church from his place upon Christ's cross.iv

The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII says this:

But to believe that our Lord God the Pope the establisher of said decretal, and of this, could not decree, as he did decree, should be accounted heretical (emphasis added).v

Pope Leo XIII said these things about the role of the Papacy and the Roman Church:

Our thoughts went out towards the immense multitude of those who are strangers to the gladness that filled all Catholic hearts: some because they lie in absolute ignorance of the Gospel; others because they dissent from the Catholic belief, though they bear the name of Christians.

This thought has been, and is, a source of deep concern to Us; for it is impossible to think of such a large portion of mankind deviating, as it were, from the right path, as they move away from Us, and not experience a sentiment of innermost grief. But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty...viii


But the supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself.ix

source

So, is the Pope God? Does the Pope have the right to change the bible? Does the Pope tell God what to do?

Priests

A Roman Catholic priest is one who acts in the place of Christ, supposedly making believers into Christians by "baptizing" them. He converts the bread into Christ's flesh in the mass, and he forgives sins in the confessional. In the Bible, all ministers are called elders, bishops or pastors, all referring to the one office, but there is no office of "priest". Christ is our Great High Priest, the only mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5), so there is no need for other priests to mediate for us. Peter never called himself a priest, but did call himself a "fellow elder". (1 Peter 5:1)

In Acts, there is no reference anywhere to a sacrificing priesthood. In Revelation 1:6 ("hath made us kings and priests unto God"), and in 1 Peter 2:5, 9 ("ye are a holy priesthood", "ye are a royal priesthood"), all believers are priests and have direct access to God through Christ. We don't offer an atoning sacrifice because only Christ did this on the cross. The only sacrifices we offer to God are prayers (Ephesians 6:18), praise and money (Hebrews 13:15, 16), and ourselves in service to God (Romans 12:1).

This Biblical truth of the priesthood of all believers was rediscovered in the Protestant Reformation of the 1500's. A pastor's real job is to preach the gospel, teach the Word of God and pray, not to hear confession, or change bread to flesh etc. Peter in 1 Peter 5 when he instructed fellow preachers, made no mention of any Roman Catholic priest's practices of today.

Source

Now, if you don't want to deal with the lie that any man has God's authority and speaks for God against the Scriptures as being wrong, then I ask you to explain the Church's support of murdering MILLIONS of Christians who would not accept their doctrine. I ask you to explain the church supporting Hitler, and it's use of Egyptian Obelisks in St. Peter's square. Can you defend the Church's L.U.C.I.F.E.R. telescope? These are their doings, these are their writings that the Pope cannot be wrong and then you all say it's only Ex Cathedra. I'm sorry, but tell that to the murdered people and conquered lands.

Great song

And to just chuck this into the midst of the discussion on the infallible Pope, just what part of Yeshua /Jesus / God was the Pope representing when Innocent VIII and successors devised how to torture heretics or witches? I am just curious how the Church gets around the "Malleus Maleficarum".

Was it when Yeshua strung up the Pharisees, beat them, ripped their skin from them, or put them on a stretching machine? Really, just what part of being the one speaking for Christ do they justify those 600 years of torture?

Pope Innocent VIII's Role in Persecution During the Inquisition The authors of Malleus Maleficarum (“The Hammer of Witches”) were instructed by the ironically named Pope Innocent VIII to create a handbook for condemning accused witches. Innocent, voted as one of the 25 most evil people of all time, is known for having a strong influence on the vicious tactics used during the Inquisition. The Malleus Maleficarum was so popular that it was published 29 times between 1487 and 1669.

Source

Pope Innocent VIII Bull (portions)

Wherefore We, as is Our duty, being wholly desirous of removing all hindrances and obstacles by which the good work of the Inquisitors may be let and tarded, as also of applying potent remedies to prevent the disease of heresy and other turpitudes diffusing their poison to the destruction of many innocent souls, since Our zeal for the Faith especially incites us, lest that the provinces, townships, dioceses, districts, and territories of Germany, which We had specified, be deprived of the benefits of the Holy Office thereto assigned, by the tenor of these presents in virtue of Our Apostolic authority We decree and enjoin that the aforesaid Inquisitors be empowered to proceed to the just correction, imprisonment, and punishment of any persons, without let or hindrance, in every way as if the provinces, townships, dioceses, districts, territories, yea, even the persons and their crimes in this kind were named and particularly designated in Our letters,

Source

So who drenched themselves for 6 centuries in their lust for power and blood? I do believe Revelation 17 says something about this:



"By your the LOVE you show one to another, they shall know you are my disciples" was what Yeshua said. Do these implements of Catholic torture show the love of Christ?


[snipped]

Judas Chair



Can't you just see Jesus doing this? Yet the infallible popes did it for 600 years... if they were wrong, then your doctrine of Papal infallibility is wrong, and the house of cards falls!

[snipped]

Oh, I am sure the Apostles lined up to help convert the masses this way:

[snipped]




IMPORTANT: Using Content From Other Websites on ATS
MOD NOTE: Posting work written by others

Now, I don't know when or if these issues will be discussed. I want to point out that the Canon Law the church used to justify the inquisition which lasted 600 years is still in effect. Most people just want to chock it up as old history, but the Roman Catholic Church still stands by the Canon law :

" Like any loving parent, Holy Mother Church reserves the right to discipline her errant children, both for their own good and for the good of the community. This principle is reflected in canon 1311 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law now in force: The Church has the innate and proper right to coerce offending members of the Christian faithful with penal sanctions." source

I will leave this here now, and wait for the justifications and / or explanations. I see the ecumenical movement as the Beast rising again in the last days, and we shall see a worldwide movement as the Pope begins to brings all religions into one new religion, taking in their faiths as the RCC did of old. Imagine if history repeats itself.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


Your initial reply to me regarding what you would prefer to discuss listed an unwieldy 8 separate claims about Pope's being equated to God, 3 examples of eisegesis, killings of non-Catholics, supporting Hitler and the Vatican telescope.

You then posted twice more enumerating the killings with various subtopics.

This is sort of why I wanted to discuss what was contained in a single post before moving on to others when I brought up your claims about Mithra.

I broke down your 8 claims about Papal equivalency to God and started doing some research. I'll continue that and will post a response by Monday (I'm helping out at a fundraiser tomorrow, so I can't respond then). I think that is reasonable.

Once I do respond, I hope that we can then deal with those claims and the responses before moving on to other topics. I hope that you would agree that discussing a few items in some depth is more worthwhile than a deluge of scattershot unsubstantiated claims.

Eric

reply to post by EricD


I look forward to your reply. I felt it necessary to elucidate the many claims by the church and it's history. I know it is a lot, but then again, the Catholic Church has done a lot, has it not? As for "unsubstantiated" I do believe the sources were given. I wish you well in your search.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


Yes, I have read about this history, not something I wanted to see before going to bed, made my heart skip a beat.

I don't know how mens minds could ever go to such dark places.

There are no words.

EricD
I hope that you would agree that discussing a few items in some depth is more worthwhile than a deluge of scattershot unsubstantiated claims.

Eric

Which ones were unsubstantiated?
Just trying to learn here.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

"Penal actions" ... as in excommunication.

So what? When a Catholic says they are in favor of abortion or marriage equality (gay marriage) they have already separated themselves from the Church. They excommunicated themselves. And since they don't care about following the Church rules, they certainly won't care about being excommunicated.

The Catholic church isn't advocating stringing someone up on a rack and torturing them.

UnifiedSerenity .. I've gotta ask ... are you getting your information from Jack Chick tracts??



ON TOPIC - Again ... all my Catholic neighbors and relatives support marriage equality. Heck, even the pope himself supported homosexual civil unions when he was a Cardinal in South America. Most Catholics use contraception. Last stat I saw said less than 10% used 'natural family planning'. As for abortion, it's still widely looked down upon by the Catholics I know (with good reason). Some support it. Most others do not.

reply to post by FlyersFan


You know ff, I don't like your implications. Why don't you just go around asking people if they wear tin hats on the UFO forum? You know it's a snide comment and unworthy of a person of your character. Either deal with the quotes from the church or say you can't. The Fed can pick any citizen up they want, hold them indefinitely without council or trial by claiming they are a terrorist. They can declare martial law and take over all workings within the country. They aren't doing it, but they can. They got rid of habeas corpus and posse comitatus. Saying the church isn't stringing people up doesn't mean they cant. If they don't agree with those laws, then why don't they remove them?

The externalization of the gnostic writings, gathered up in the bible, into a fundamental style religion, is the opposite of their meanings and turns God/Goodness into the opposite of Goodness. They are inner metaphors for innerwork, nothing external about them.

Now as for the pope, the chair of peter. Peter was the apostle that represents lower primitive man, so its actually like saying he represents satan or the anti christ. I'm certainly not interested in what any of them say, unless its.....have to disclose a lot of information to you guys, and first of all am very sorry, for all the harm the slavers on this planet have done, via banks, religions and false scarsity economics, and fossil fuels. We were very wrong, and this entire world has suffered so much at our hands.....

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

Dear UnifiedSerenity,

I hope you don't mind if I "butt in" on your conversation, but your most recent post leaves me confused.

You know ff, I don't like your implications. Why don't you just go around asking people if they wear tin hats on the UFO forum? You know it's a snide comment and unworthy of a person of your character.

Are you referring to the comment about Jack Chick? If so, I must say I agree to the extent that I would like to know where you got the idea that:

Saying the church isn't stringing people up doesn't mean they cant. If they don't agree with those laws, then why don't they remove them?

I don't know of any place where there are laws saying the Church can exercise physical violence on an individual for having non-Catholic beliefs. The article you used as a source discusses the penalties available, and there is nothing even remotely close to hanging or jail, or anything like that.

So, I agree, where did you get the idea that hanging is a Church penalty?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


I quoted it and sourced it. It's right there, go back and read it. The canon law was supported in the 80's that was used to justify the inquisition.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

Sadly, I really don't know which one you're referring to. Is it the Bull of Pope Innocent VIII, or the 915 project that has this as the heading:

Like any loving parent, Holy Mother Church reserves the right to discipline her errant children, both for their own good and for the good of the community. This principle is reflected in canon 1311 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law now in force: The Church has the innate and proper right to coerce offending members of the Christian faithful with penal sanctions.

If it's the latter, then my comments still apply.

charles1952
reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

 

Sadly, I really don't know which one you're referring to. Is it the Bull of Pope Innocent VIII, or the 915 project that has this as the heading:

Like any loving parent, Holy Mother Church reserves the right to discipline her errant children, both for their own good and for the good of the community. This principle is reflected in canon 1311 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law now in force: The Church has the innate and proper right to coerce offending members of the Christian faithful with penal sanctions.

If it's the latter, then my comments still apply.

I really don't think it is that complicated. The Church used Innocent the VIII 1311 dictate that, "The Church has the innate and proper right to coerce offending members of the Christian faithful with penal sanctions" to torture and murder both heretical Christians and non-Christians whom they deemed witches. That same law was upheld in 1983, thus the church has never denounced that whichjustifyed their actions. Just because they are not doing it, doesn't mean they can't. Why not just say it is not appropriate instead of saying, "Well, we have the right to excommunicate people". Then just say that and denounce the right to torture or do any physical harm to anyone.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

The Church used Innocent the VIII 1311 dictate

Innocent VIII wasn't even born until 1432, so I don't think he had anything to do with dictates from 1311.

Just because they are not doing it, doesn't mean they can't.

The American government used a doctrine called "Manifest Destiny" to justify the genocide of Native American populations -- I'm not aware that we've ever officially repudiated the concept of Manifest Destiny, so are we to assume that the government will start killing Native Americans in the future?

You seem to be too mired in your dislike and distrust of the Roman Catholic church to even contemplate a rational discussion on the subject. Your argument is far more rooted in the typical anti-Catholic ravings of nut jobs like Jack Chick and the Ku Klux Klan than it is in any reasonable interpretation of what the Pope or the church teaches.

reply to post by adjensen


Ok, So which Pope wrote that Bull? Are you saying it is not part of the Church? I might have gotten which Pope wrote it incorrect, but it's still in the church. What about the other portions which they say the Pope is God? None of you seem to want to touch this post:

Pope is God

UnifiedSerenity
reply to post by adjensen

 

Ok, So which Pope wrote that Bull?

I have no idea, but the Pope in 1311 was Clement V, and the Council held that year was the Council of Vienne which was called to disband the Knights Templar.

Are you saying it is not part of the Church? I might have gotten which Pope wrote it incorrect, but it's still in the church.

I have no idea. Like I said before, your blindly quoting anti-Catholic and Seventh Day Adventist texts shoots your credibility to hell. I've dealt with posters who do that often enough in the past to not waste my time on debunking their posts because a) they're always proven wrong, or at least misguided and b) no one ever seems to accept that, apologize for wasting my time, and find better topics to spend time on.

None of you seem to want to touch this post:
Pope is God

Just based on your text there, I'll tell you why I'm not going to respond -- it's idiotic. No Catholic believes "the Pope is God", and to claim otherwise is nothing more than an insult.

reply to post by adjensen


So, you deny those writings? You deny what the church says even when quoted? Seems like an emotional anti non denominational viewpoint. Typical

In 1512 Christopher Marcellus said this to Pope Julius II: Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth (emphasis added).iii

Just recently, in 2004, Bishop Patrick Dunn of Auckland said this: "It seems that Pope John Paul II now presides over the universal Church from his place upon Christ's cross.iv

The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII says this: But to believe that our Lord God the Pope the establisher of said decretal, and of this, could not decree, as he did decree, should be accounted heretical (emphasis added).v

Pope Leo XIII said these things about the role of the Papacy and the Roman Church: Our thoughts went out towards the immense multitude of those who are strangers to the gladness that filled all Catholic hearts: some because they lie in absolute ignorance of the Gospel; others because they dissent from the Catholic belief, though they bear the name of Christians. This thought has been, and is, a source of deep concern to Us; for it is impossible to think of such a large portion of mankind deviating, as it were, from the right path, as they move away from Us, and not experience a sentiment of innermost grief. But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty...viii

But the supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself.ix

Source

Here are the sources within the source as notated:

iii. Christopher Marcellus addressing Pope Julius II during the Fifth Lateran Council which began in 1512, as quoted in Alexander Hislop, The light of prophecy let in on the dark places of the papacy (London: William Whyte and Co., 1846): 91 and Letters between a Catholic and a Protestant on the doctrines of the Church of Rome originally published in Borrow's Worcester Journal (Worcester Journal, 1827): 29. Find the original Latin version here

iv. "Auckland Bishop Says Pope Presides From the Cross" (Zenit, September 20, 2004).

v. The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, Cum. Inter, title 14, chapter 4, "Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium", Column 140 (Paris, 1685). In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam ("Our Lord God the Pope") can be found in column 153.

viii. Pope Leo XIII, Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae—The Reunion of Christendom (Rome: 1894).

ix. Pope Leo XIII, Sapientiae Christianae: On Christians as Citizens (January 10, 1890).

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

I notice you got all insulting and full of faux indignation ... but you didn't answer
the question. It was very simple .... Do you read and believe the Jack Chick tracts ...
do you get your information from them. It's a very simple question without any
insults or snotty remarks. Very simple .... would you answer the question please.

reply to post by FlyersFan


No, I don't read Jack Chick tracts.