Overview of the Necronomicon

reply to post by abeverage



Yes that's interesting locks date back to Nineveh and the Neo-Babylonian period, from which that Ishtar text would date, so perhaps if the seven Demons that guarded the seven gates into the Underworld upgraded to the new technology perhaps Ishtar figured their security system was now vunerable...


The painting there adapted from the Windflowers is Boreas, the chill North wind, cool blue and grey and bringer of snow, at least around these parts, but i like the way were having had your Ghostbuster analogy rejected you respond with the Muppets.



reply to post by Wandering Scribe



Yes you did need to be on the inside to unbar the doors, in the case of Ninshubur she is within the world and the gate she oversees is that which opens at the Mountain of the horizon were the seven further gates leading down into the Underworld would be found, and the seven that lead into the Heavens, which is why as she had to be in invoked in the Necronomicon as Queen of the East, it's just a gate that leads to the gates.

Wouldn't the turtle that navigates the seven seas have the Divine Plan upon it's shell...?

Kantzveldt
reply to post by abeverage

 

Yes that's interesting locks date back to Nineveh and the Neo-Babylonian period, from which that Ishtar text would date, so perhaps if the seven Demons that guarded the seven gates into the Underworld upgraded to the new technology perhaps Ishtar figured their security system was now vunerable...


The painting there adapted from the Windflowers is Boreas, the chill North wind, cool blue and grey and bringer of snow, at least around these parts, but i like the way were having had your Ghostbuster analogy rejected you respond with the Muppets.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

 

Yes you did need to be on the inside to unbar the doors, in the case of Ninshubur she is within the world and the gate she oversees is that which opens at the Mountain of the horizon were the seven further gates leading down into the Underworld would be found, and the seven that lead into the Heavens, which is why as she had to be in invoked in the Necronomicon as Queen of the East, it's just a gate that leads to the gates.

Wouldn't the turtle that navigates the seven seas have the Divine Plan upon it's shell...?

Oh Well if you don't like Ghostbusters or Muppets perhaps a Cartoon will make you smile? It might be a madding wide grin, but it reminds me of my childhood!

The Adventures of Lil Cthulhu

Lil Cthulhu has fun with all his friend! They have fun reading the Necronomicon! Whoops lil Cthulhu summoned Yog Sothoth Master of The Gates between worlds, He's mad cause lil Cthulhu woke him up. Uh oh Yog Sothoth sent lil Cthulhu to Yuggoth' That is where the Mi-go live!

The Mi-go are like big bees with glowing heads...

Now if you excuse me I need some coffee, I am grumpy this morning and the Gate to Yog Sothoth let in a chill...

reply to post by abeverage

Locking Devices have been known since antiquity. Just because Sumerian is not my forte doesn't mean I do not know how to read, it also doesn't mean I am not learning...

Nineveh is an Assyrian city. The earliest known lock comes from the Assyrian empire. The Assyrians were not the Sumerians. The Assyrians were the ethnic offspring of the Semitic Akkadians. But thanks for the link. As I suspected, the Sumerians did not have mechanical lock-and-key devices.

Geez she sounds just so pissed! smashing and using force! Makes you wonder if it was for a lacksidasical husband or something else?

The reason Ishtar sounds so angry is because Neti, the gate-keeper of the Underworld, is ignoring her request to enter. Her threat to smash the door down had nothing to do with Tammuz (who was already dead at this point).

Something tells me however that Ereshkigal the goddess of all Irkalla, might have some pretty powerful locks on the doors that allow access to the Underworld.

Ereshkigal had door-bars on the gates, sure, but I really think the reason people didn't try to break into the Underworld in Sumer more often had something to do with the whole "once you enter you can never leave again" stipulation.

I have found her similarities to Hel most interesting considering they are two of the most prominent Female propritars of the Underworld beside Hades and The Devil.

You left out the single most influential Underworld goddess of all. * points to Avatar * If you're looking for dominant and powerful Underworld goddesses, Hel and Ereshkigal don't hold a candle to Hecate.

Hel did not earn her right to rule over the Underworld, she was thrown into Helheim by Odin because she was the bestial child of Loki. Same reason Fenrir was bound up, and Jörmungandr cast into the sea: they were disowned by Aesir and Vanir alike.

Ereshkigal's entire existence is one of subjugation. Kur (the monster, not the mountainous land) kidnaps her as a youth and forces her to live in the Underworld. Then, Inanna, Enki, and Ninshubur defy her authority by bringing Inanna, Dumuzi, and Geshtinana back from the dead, annually. And finally, she gets raped by Nergal, who steals her kingdom, and then hands over her role to a nobody goddess named Laz.

Hecate however... well, let's see... Hecate owns one-third of the sea, the sky, and the Underworld, and, because she was Zeus' favorite, she is allowed final say concerning the fate of human beings. She overruled Hades word, and brought Persephone to Eleusis to be reunited with Demeter. There's also the small thing of her savior-cult, her witchcraft-cult, and her Eleusinian and Orphic Mysteries. If you want a dominant, powerful, and lasting Underworld goddess, there is no one who fills the shoes better than Hecate.

Although, if you're interested in Sumerian/Norse overlaps, Ninurta and Thor are very interesting as well. Both are farmer/craftsman deities, in charge of the harvest, who become savior-gods for human beings and receive a magical tool to protect the world with (Ninurta: the mace Sharur; Thor: the hammer Mjolnir). Both of them then go on to slay mountain-giants (Ninurta: Asag / Thor: actual mountain giants). There are other overlaps, not present in classical Greek, Roman, or Celtic myth that only show up in Sumerian and Norse. I had a thread on ATS about it once. I'll link to it when I find it again.

You so easily dismiss modern entertainment yet here we sit discussing a fictional book based on another Fictional book based within the fictional universe created by an Author for sci-fi pulp magazines, Many of which I read before I was twelve!

I dismiss Ghost Busters, not all modern entertainment. Should I be impressed that you can read? I also read Lovecraft's work when I was young, as well as Dante's, Milton's, and Dostoevsky's (among others). I never knew that enjoying literature was something to boast about.

Oh and when you call Winds wear deep blue Zephyr dress and a lavender silk scarf it will allow you see, but keep the dust out

Maybe I prefer to practice my art skyclad...

If my tone sounds harsh in this reply please do not take it as such.

I don't judge another's emotions by their words (unless it's full of swears and ad hominem attacks). I don't know you well enough to know how your speech changes based on your emotions. I just read what you write, and take it at face value; nothing more, nothing less.

~ Wandering Scribe

Wandering Scribe
reply to post by abeverage

 

Nineveh is an Assyrian city. The earliest known lock comes from the Assyrian empire. The Assyrians were not the Sumerians. The Assyrians were the ethnic offspring of the Semitic Akkadians. But thanks for the link. As I suspected, the Sumerians did not have mechanical lock-and-key devices.

The oldest locks are 4,000 years old and were found in Dur-Sharrukin, or present day Khorsabad 20 km south of Nineveh. Nineveh is much older city and like much of the fertile crescent was founded long before the Assyrian Empire. It was assimilated by the Assyrians as was much of the Sumerian cultures in the surrounding area. It is also one of the oldest cities of antiquity. If you would like to offer more than conjecture, I would be happy to review it.

In the Lament Of Sumer during Ningal's plea sanctuary of Ur when Enlil unleashes a destructive storm. The use of the lock is used twice in the latter most intriguingly.
At the begining when Enil decides the fate
to overturn the divine powers of Sumer, to lock up the favourable reign in its home,

And again during the destruction of the temple house
Great bronze latches ...... were torn out. Its hinges ....... Together with its door fittings it (?) wept bitterly like a fugitive. The bolt, the holy lock and the great door were not fastened for it. The noise of the door being fastened had ceased; there was no one to fasten it. The ...... and was put out in the square.


What is the Holy Lock?

Ereshkigal had door-bars on the gates, sure, but I really think the reason people didn't try to break into the Underworld in Sumer more often had something to do with the whole "once you enter you can never leave again" stipulation.

I will break the door, I will wrench the lock, I will smash the door-posts, I will force the doors.

So why does she want to break the LOCKS? lol Why not translate break the bars? So silly to argue this really with no proof to the contrary.

In the lexicon of Sumer the sumerians had several words for locks and it is translated as such, not gates, not bars, but locks they had words for those as well!
ig-šu-úr...DU: to bolt the door
aškud: wedge (as a device to bar a door)
ká-mè: wings of a temple door ('gate' + 'battle').
dag-gi (Lock up)
They also have a word for KEY! ñiš-e: key; door pin ('tool' + 'to exit'). Why have a word for a door pin if it were not a lock??? LOL

You left out the single most influential Underworld goddess of all. * points to Avatar * If you're looking for dominant and powerful Underworld goddesses, Hel and Ereshkigal don't hold a candle to Hecate.

Believe me I have noticed your avatar and while I am no Neo-Pagan, I do have much respect for Hacate. I love Greek Mythology and there was a reason I didn't mention her.

Hecate however... well, let's see... Hecate owns one-third of the sea, the sky, and the Underworld, and, because she was Zeus' favorite, she is allowed final say concerning the fate of human beings. She overruled Hades word, and brought Persephone to Eleusis to be reunited with Demeter. There's also the small thing of her savior-cult, her witchcraft-cult, and her Eleusinian and Orphic Mysteries. If you want a dominant, powerful, and lasting Underworld goddess, there is no one who fills the shoes better than Hecate.

Hecate does not rule the Underworld within the Greek Pantheon. And while a great goddess in her own right she is not head of that dominion. When Zeus begins his war with the Titans to establish the Olympians as the new gods the only one he spared was Hecate because he respected her (which is amazing for this philander). And after the War lots were drawn and Hades got the short stick so to speak and was designated Ruler of the Underworld and all that lies beneath the earth.

Maybe Hecate has timeshare there? LOL

Both Ereshkigal and Hel preside and have dominion over the Underworld. And while the triple-threat Hecate was asked by Hades to live in Hades she does not rule it. Hecate can come and go as she pleases which it restricted to everyone (there are of course exceptions.)
But I am sure you will enlighten me on how I am wrong.

Although, if you're interested in Sumerian/Norse overlaps, Ninurta and Thor are very interesting as well. Both are farmer/craftsman deities, in charge of the harvest, who become savior-gods for human beings and receive a magical tool to protect the world with (Ninurta: the mace Sharur; Thor: the hammer Mjolnir). Both of them then go on to slay mountain-giants (Ninurta: Asag / Thor: actual mountain giants). There are other overlaps, not present in classical Greek, Roman, or Celtic myth that only show up in Sumerian and Norse. I had a thread on ATS about it once. I'll link to it when I find it again.

Oh that does sound interesting! Please do link me!

I admit my Sumerian is completely lacking (although I got a Hel of lot more acquainted in the last few days) But its fun to argue Assyrian or heck...Babylonian or Sumerian I know, I know BIG DIFFERENCE...hehe

reply to post by abeverage


I was going to just pass this one up, as I wasn't really that concerned with the whole history of tumbler locks, but, I figured, since you seem interested in Mesopotamia in general, I could use this as an opportunity to help you out with that as well. So, my apologies if what follows doesn't necessarily relate to locks and keys, I'll do my best to tie it back to that if I can.

1. The difference between Sumerians, Akkadians, Assyrians, and Babylonians.

I admit, this didn't use to be an issue for me. At one point I lived in ignorance, assuming that all four were the same people, just given different names by historians. However, I have since learned that they are ethnically different people, with diverse cultural ideals and origins.

I'm not sure if this analogy will mean anything to you, but, comparing the Sumerians to the Assyrians would be the same as saying that Koreans and Japanese are the same. While they inhabit the same continental area, telling a Korean they're Japanese (or vice-versa) is a good way to get yourself a black eye.

Here's a mini history lesson for you on the differences. My time line follows the middle chronology, which are the dates by which I learned about the cultures. For the long chronology add 64 years to each date, for the short chronology subtract 64 years from each date.

The Sumerians were a non-Semitic people who settled in the fertile crescent between 5000 BCE and 4500 BCE. Non-Semitic means that they had no ethnic relation to the groups which later occupied the area and can be found in Biblical literature. No one actually knows where the Sumerians came from, although a handful of theories exist. Among the contributions from the Sumerians is the invention of the world's first written language: Cuneiform. The Sumerians originally ruled over large portions of Southern Mesopotamia, establishing a handful of city-states, like Eridu, Ur, and Erech. The Sumerian empire originally lasted from roughly 4500 BCE until about 2300 BCE, with the introduction of the next ruling people: the Akkadians.

The Akkadians were a group of Semitic invaders. What this means is that they had no relationship with the Sumerians before them. If it helps, consider the Akkadians like the British colonies who came to America and discovered the native tribes, who would be the Sumerians. The Akkadian empire began in 2340 BCE (+/- 64 years) when Sargon the Great founded the mythical city of Agade (Akkad). The Akkadian empire only lasted until 2200 BCE (+/- 64 years) before another set of people invaded and destabilized their empire. These were known as the Guti. Though the Akkadian empire was short-lived, it was of vital importance to history. The Akkadians and Sumerians blended their cultures together, creating ethnic offspring. Think of this as an Asian and and an Irish-man creating an Asian Irish child. That's what happened when the Sumerians and Akkadians met.

The Gutians aren't really that important. They were, essentially, traveling war bands unrelated to either the Sumerians or Akkadians who liked to conquer people, and gather riches. They didn't last that long. In 2112 BCE (+/- 64 years) the remaining ethnically pure Sumerian people took back Southern Mesopotamia from the Guti, and established what is known as the Sumerian Renaissance. For a little more than a hundred years the Sumerians again ruled Southern Mesopotamia until, in 2004 BCE their king, Ibbi-Sin, was captured and killed by members of the Elamite tribe, another purely Semitic people with no relation to the Sumerians or Akkadians.

The Babylonians were the next big group to have control over a large portion of Southern Mesopotamia. The Babylonians are the genetic descendants of the Akkadians who married Sumerians. They are neither purely Semitic, nor purely Sumerian. Arguably, the most important Babylonian figure
is Hammurabi, the law-giver. In 1792 Hammurabi really put the Babylonians on the map when he defeated numerous other purely Semitic tribes, and conquered much of Southern Mesopotamia. Unfortunately, the pure Babylonian empire only lasted until about 1595 when it was sacked by the Hittites, a people native to Anatolia (modern day Turkey).

Finally, we come to the Assyrians. The Assyrians were, like the Babylonians, the impure descendants of Akkadians and Sumerian marriage. However, instead of ruling over Southern Mesopotamia, like their Babylonian cousins, they ruled over Northern Mesopotamia. Here's where that Korea/Japan metaphor comes back into play: the Assyrians really, really, really disliked their southern cousins, the Babylonians. There was absolutely no kinship between the two cultures, to the point where their mythology even competed, with Ashshur (the Assyrian deity) replacing Marduk (the Babylonian deity) in the Enuma Elish after Babylon had been sacked. The pure Assyrian empire was really short though, lasting for only about 30-50 years, before all of Mesopotamia was again thrown into disarray by invading barbarians, this time known as the Sea People.

Later, in 884 BCE the dynasty of Assurmasipal II established an Assyrian renaissance, which lasted for about 200 years (c. 884 BCE - 612 BCE). After that, the descendants of the Babylonians again tried their hand at ruling Mesopotamia, with dynasties like those of Nebuchadnezzar and Nabonidus, who handed the empire over to Persian invaders. The Babylonian renaissance lasted from 612 BCE until 539 BCE.

So, why is this all important? Well:

In the year 4500 BCE (almost 7000 years ago) the Sumerians arrived.
Nearly 2000 years pass
In the year 2300 BCE (almost 5000 years ago) the Akkadians arrived.
Nearly 500 years pass
In the year 1894 BCE (almost 4000 years ago) the Babylonians arrived.
Nearly 600 years pass
In the year 1234 BCE (about 3000 years ago) the Assyrians arrived.

Historically speaking, the Assyrians are closer to us, modern inhabitants of the Earth, than they are to the Sumerians. To say that the lock and key was Sumerian, because it was invented during the time of the Assyrians, is wrong. It would be more accurate to say it is Muslim, because that group is closer, on the time line, and physically on the map, to the Assyrians than are the Sumerians.

Also, nearly every reference to "lock" in the Sumerian lexicon (an invaluable tool) is a reference to surrounding, laying siege to, enslaving, or, a lock of hair. Except for "giš-e", which means "tool used for exiting", or, in modern English, a key. What a "giš-e" really is, though, is any object used to open a door. So, a tool to lift a door-bar, a tool to remove a door-wedge, etc. It is not a literal deadbolt key, despite the phonetic gloss.

~ Wandering Scribe