Overview of the Necronomicon

"So in essence, both you and your daughter are right, and equally wrong."


I love that. To me that sums up almost everything one needs to know about the occult.

Wandering Scribe
This marks the third time (at least) that an ATS user has recommended "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross" to me. I'll definitely have to keep my eyes peeled for if/when a copy shows up at my local bookstore.

You may be waiting a while, given it's cult status it is seldom found in the shops, you would be better off searching on line. It is an excellent, if controversial, piece of work and well worth reading.

Wandering Scribe
As for the idea of the "U" as an original god... I'm iffy.

Bear in mind that 'U' is merely a phoneme, a component sound in the formation of a word and in that context, Allegro is considering it as a building block of spoken language, then translated into a written form. So, where 'U' appears, it carries an implied spoken meaning that was understood, one of divinity.

Wandering Scribe
If anything, the original veneration was of the Earth as a mother-figure. So, a monotheistic Mother-Goddess worship. But, I don't actually believe that monotheism is the root of religious worship. I believe monotheism is an evolution of religious worship.

Ah ha...Allegro, as much as I admire him, I have all his books, was at core, a Biblical scholar, if a disgraced one, and one with a personal agenda. Therefore Goddess worship is well and truly outside of his remit, he barely even touches upon it. So, when he talks about Monotheism it is in the context of a male deity only, and concerns himself primarily with a critique of the perceived and accepted notions of Trinitarianism and Judaism in one sweep, and their evolution of belief. In essence, if we for the moment ignore the feminine element, he is saying that one male god, encompassing many offices, was divided to become many gods as society became more complex, before contracting to it's original form. He addresses the female role in creation but only with Biblical reference which of course, as all references to Goddess worship had already been expunged from that belief system, does not include female deities.

Wandering Scribe
That's an entirely different topic then the one at hand though, ha ha.

Not at all, it is a side line certainly, but it sheds important light on why we so misunderstand the Ancient texts that are being mentioned here and why I suspect that the Maqlu is a Book of the Dead or has similar intent. Allegro provides a scant indication in that he includes his analysis of the Sumerian pictogram for 'love', a burning torch enclosed in a vessel or container. The gestational process, the consequence of 'love', was associated with heat and fire, which naturally translates into the process of beliefs of rebirth and afterlife. And, much like the male deity has many aspects to it, the feminine is seen as a bridge between life and death, hence her association, in early and pre-history, with medicine, as well as the necromantic arts of the prophet or seer. While it is the male that provides the fertility, the seed, it is only by passing through the heat and fire of the Earth Mother, that that can be given life. They had, initially, equal roles as co-creators, with the growth of more complex society wrought by developing civilisation and conurbation, the feminine role becomes increasingly passive, and eventually redundant. Or alternatively, in regions where the Earth seemed to fail to return life, due to over farming, or took life (as in the case of Mesopotamia) by flash flooding, and fire, 'she' became something to be feared, a punisher and her 'arts' came to be considered as negative or 'demonic'.

Thanks for writing this thread. It sure made for some interesting reading. My friend had a copy of the Necronomicon but I'm not sure which version it was. I used to enjoy reading it; very fascinating stuff. I also liked the artwork you included. H. R. Geiger is one of my favorite artists. The art you selected blends with the subject matter nicely.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout

The gestational process, the consequence of 'love', was associated with heat and fire, which naturally translates into the process of beliefs of rebirth and afterlife. And, much like the male deity has many aspects to it, the feminine is seen as a bridge between life and death, hence her association, in early and pre-history, with medicine, as well as the necromantic arts of the prophet or seer.

This was a very good point, they don't call it Nec-romantic without reason.

Kantzveldt
This was a very good point, they don't call it Nec-romantic without reason.

Funny.

A friend of a friend loaned me the movie Nekromantik once. Even then, with my morbid curiousity at it's peak, I didn't get much further than the half way point.

Call me picky, but any object of my affections really must have a pulse. Nothing romantic about dead dudes.

Silliness aside, and for purposes of my pedantism...

Necro/nekros = Dead/death
Mancy = Divination

As a prefix neither 'Nec' nor 'Ro' has any meaning, Romance is derived from 'Roman', it's 'mance' being merely circumstantial.

I do love me a good bit of etymology

reply to post by KilgoreTrout

Bear in mind that 'U' is merely a phoneme, a component sound in the formation of a word and in that context, Allegro is considering it as a building block of spoken language, then translated into a written form. So, where 'U' appears, it carries an implied spoken meaning that was understood, one of divinity.

What interests me about the above is how the author harmonizes the diverse languages of the world.

Consider the Gaelic language. For a very long time the Gaelic language did not have a phoneme equivalent to what we now understand as the letter P. It was not until the Latinization of the Celtic empire that the letter P entered into Celtic languages.

Does every language on Earth use the letter U?
Does the letter U encompass the same sound in every language?

Obviously I would need to read the book to learn the answer, but, that was one of the first thoughts which struck me when I read your more in-depth synopsis of the book and it's goal.

Ah ha...Allegro, as much as I admire him, I have all his books, was at core, a Biblical scholar, if a disgraced one, and one with a personal agenda.

Ah, see, you should never have told me this, ha ha.

I'll be the first to admit that I look at Biblical religion with suspicion, and, more often than not, disdain. Biblical accounts are rife with historical inaccuracies, scientific mistakes, and borrowed spiritual practices / philosophies. Knowing what Jews, Christians, and Muslims did to the people whose spirituality they borrowed, I often cannot stomach reading the historical revisionism that accompanies the Bible.

Apologies for the mini-rant.

In essence, if we for the moment ignore the feminine element, he is saying that one male god, encompassing many offices, was divided to become many gods as society became more complex, before contracting to it's original form.

Allegro is espousing what is commonly known as a Henotheism. A Henotheism is a philosophy/theology where all lesser divinities are elements of a single greater divinity.

The most popular Henotheism, at least among the ancient Near East, can be found in Egypt's New Kingdom (c. 1567 BCE). After the Egyptian people overthrew the Hyksos invaders, a new worship was established, that of Amun-Rē.

Amun-Rē helped to unite the Temple (Amun) and the Palace (Rē) into a holistic system. Amun represented the invisible world, the realm of faith and spirit, while Rē represented the material world, the realm of flesh and blood. Amun-Rē together represented all of existence in any form which it presented itself. Under the Amun-Rē philosophy all of Egypt's Neters (their deities) were considered to be emanations of the Supreme God, Amun-Rē, who orchestrated and oversaw all things.

Parallel philosophies can be found in late Greek philosophy, where Zeus/Jove is sometimes attributed the title of "Best and Greatest" (a title later applied to Yhvh), implying that he may have, at one period in Greek religious history, become a kind of Demiurge. Gnostic philosophy is very heavily influenced by such thoughts and theories.

If you think I've wrongly attributed Allegro's theory, let me know. I haven't read the book, but from what you explained it does sound very much like Henotheism to me.

Allegro provides a scant indication in that he includes his analysis of the Sumerian pictogram for 'love', a burning torch enclosed in a vessel or container. The gestational process, the consequence of 'love', was associated with heat and fire, which naturally translates into the process of beliefs of rebirth and afterlife. And, much like the male deity has many aspects to it, the feminine is seen as a bridge between life and death, hence her association, in early and pre-history, with medicine, as well as the necromantic arts of the prophet or seer.

This is all spot-on, to me. I don't disagree with a single word of this conclusion. The fact that feminine divinity did have such power, mysticism, and importance in ancient cultures is why I tend to disagree with Henotheism, and, if that is what Allegro is espousing, his work as well.

To me, the U phoneme only makes sense if, as you pointed out, you ignore the feminine, and if you ignore the bountiful examples of important deities lacking the U phoneme.

Consider An, before the Babylonian empire. Or Enlil, who ruled after An. Even Rē and Thoth among the Egyptians. A variety of others, like Il and Baal from Ugaritic mythology even. And that is just looking at the masculine powers. Inanna, Isis, Asherah, Neith, Anat, Kybele, Rhea, Persephone, Hathor, and so on. The world of deities is full of figures who lack the U phoneme.

Where I really see the U phoneme, is in Henotheistic, or monotheistic societies. Marduk in Babylon, which, as I explained, replaced An and Enlil from Sumer. Ba'al-Zebul, in the Ugarit, who replaced El and Yam as Prince of Princes (or, the Supreme God). Amun-Rē, who came to power only after Akhenaten's reign, and the discovery of Egypt by the Greeks. Even among the Greeks, Zeus came to power after the age of the Titans.

The U-god is not the original divinity, but a late-comer who takes over after the previous generation either collapses in on itself, is ousted in a war, or ascends to another spiritual level. Which is why I do not believe that a single All-Father was the source of religious worship, but am perfectly capable of believing that monotheism is an evolutionary turn that we, as a species, took around the time that the nomadic Jews began traveling around the ancient Near East, spreading their new "One God" philosophy.

~ Wandering Scribe

Wandering Scribe
What interests me about the above is how the author harmonizes the diverse languages of the world.

Consider the Gaelic language. For a very long time the Gaelic language did not have a phoneme equivalent to what we now understand as the letter P. It was not until the Latinization of the Celtic empire that the letter P entered into Celtic languages.

Does every language on Earth use the letter U?
Does the letter U encompass the same sound in every language?

Obviously I would need to read the book to learn the answer, but, that was one of the first thoughts which struck me when I read your more in-depth synopsis of the book and it's goal.

I apologise, I don't think I explained myself particularly well, a phoneme is a unit of spoken language, they basically comprise the sounds that humans are capable of forming to create speech. Some are universal, as old as the spoken word itself. Relatively, written language is a modern adaptation, and developed along entirely different principles to spoken language. A pictogram communicates a concept, that pictogram was then assigned a character symbolic of the concept. Written language, based upon more phonetic principles of speech assignation only came into play with the literation of vernacular or spoken language, much later. Soooo...what Allegro is tracing is a unit of speech, the 'U' sound. The differences in language, and the language families, are more to do with the way that spoken words are formed using those phonemes, or basic speech units, or in some cases, for example, the elongation of those sounds, or how sounds are combined. While not every language has the letter 'U', they will have a symbolic representation of that sound, which when the language is broken down into phonemes will be represented as 'U'. 'U' is a sound represented by a letter but is not a letter in the sense of written language...if that makes sense.

Wandering Scribe
Ah, see, you should never have told me this, ha ha.

I'll be the first to admit that I look at Biblical religion with suspicion, and, more often than not, disdain. Biblical accounts are rife with historical inaccuracies, scientific mistakes, and borrowed spiritual practices / philosophies. Knowing what Jews, Christians, and Muslims did to the people whose spirituality they borrowed, I often cannot stomach reading the historical revisionism that accompanies the Bible.

Apologies for the mini-rant.

Allegro was a Biblical scholar in the sense that his academic focus was on the period and places of the Bible. His focus was on archaeology and philology, he doesn't wander off those disciplines all that much, and does not concern himself with spirituality at all. His bias, or agenda, seems to me, having read the breadth of his work, to show the Abrahamic religions as evolving from the same belief systems as all other religions. Not all Biblical scholars are in it to support those belief systems.

Wandering Scribe
Allegro is espousing what is commonly known as a Henotheism. A Henotheism is a philosophy/theology where all lesser divinities are elements of a single greater divinity.

No, not at all. He was not espousing anything, he was simply, as an academic reporting the results of his analysis of the evidence that he had studied, and the conclusions that he drew from that. He does not promote any personal belief at all, I suspect he was an atheist, although he never comes out and says as much.

Wandering Scribe
To me, the U phoneme only makes sense if, as you pointed out, you ignore the feminine, and if you ignore the bountiful examples of important deities lacking the U phoneme.

Consider An, before the Babylonian empire. Or Enlil, who ruled after An. Even Rē and Thoth among the Egyptians. A variety of others, like Il and Baal from Ugaritic mythology even. And that is just looking at the masculine powers. Inanna, Isis, Asherah, Neith, Anat, Kybele, Rhea, Persephone, Hathor, and so on. The world of deities is full of figures who lack the U phoneme.

Where I really see the U phoneme, is in Henotheistic, or monotheistic societies. Marduk in Babylon, which, as I explained, replaced An and Enlil from Sumer. Ba'al-Zebul, in the Ugarit, who replaced El and Yam as Prince of Princes (or, the Supreme God). Amun-Rē, who came to power only after Akhenaten's reign, and the discovery of Egypt by the Greeks. Even among the Greeks, Zeus came to power after the age of the Titans.

The U-god is not the original divinity, but a late-comer who takes over after the previous generation either collapses in on itself, is ousted in a war, or ascends to another spiritual level. Which is why I do not believe that a single All-Father was the source of religious worship, but am perfectly capable of believing that monotheism is an evolutionary turn that we, as a species, took around the time that the nomadic Jews began traveling around the ancient Near East, spreading their new "One God" philosophy.

~ Wandering Scribe

That is why it is important to understand that Allegro had an academic focus, and why I was so interested in your extrapolation in relation to his work in particular. Not only has what you have told me confirmed his linguistic hypothesis in The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, but also his analysis of the texts of Old Testament in relation to migrations and movements, in The Chosen People. That there are gods and goddesses outside of those parametres goes without saying, but aids in the understanding of their demise and/or subsequent redundancy.

I think what may be significant here is who and who wasn't literate during those times and in those places, specifically when it came to changes in the power structure...but now we have veered completely off topic...

Many thanks, fascinating talking to you.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


I'd definitely be interested to see why Allegro believes that the U-phoneme is representative of deity, as opposed to the A, E, I, O, or any other consonant phoneme. I'll keep my eyes peeled for the book so I can read Allegro's own take on it.

Concerning Henotheism: it isn't a specific belief system, like Neopaganism, Christianity, or Hinduism. Henotheism is not restricted to just Amun-Rē. That period of Egyptian history is just one of the most obvious form of Henotheism in religious history; Brahma in Hinduism is another example.

If it helps, consider Polytheism, Henotheism, and Monotheism to be akin to Liberals, Moderates, and Conservatives in political ideology. They are just different ways of defining your overall view of a particular philosophy.

Polytheism believes there are many thousands of deities all acting independently. Henotheism believes there is one God who manifests as many lesser gods. Monotheism believes there is only one God and He manifests only as Himself.

The description you gave of Allegro's stance here:

he is saying that one male god, encompassing many offices, was divided to become many gods as society became more complex, before contracting to it's original form.

Sounds an awful lot like Henotheism to me. Not that I have a stance one way or the other about whether or not Henotheism is any more truthful than Polytheism or Monotheism. I'm just drawing parallels.

Another thing that interested me about Allegro's work was this:

His focus was on archaeology and philology, he doesn't wander off those disciplines all that much, and does not concern himself with spirituality at all.

I can understand the development of our name for God not needing a spiritual study, as it's very easy to see how Zeus from Greece transitioned into Deus in Latin; or, conversely, how the Germanic term Gott transitioned into the modern English God.

However, when looking at how ancient people actually perceived their deities, you do need to include spirituality.

I had a similar discussion with another user on a separate thread. Their claim was that all harvest deities are actually one deity. Their stance was that if you look at their office (harvest god) they're all the same: they all are responsible for the harvest.

I countered that the harvest-god Ninurta (in Sumer) is not the same as Demeter, the harvest-goddess of Greece. My stance was, and is, that to understand what a people believed concerning their deities you have to look at the details they left us concerning them: spiritual, mythological, and religious.

If you only look at what they called their god/s, or what they were the god of, then you're missing a large part of what the people actually believed concerning them.

I find it very, very hard to believe that the Sumerians, when they were worshiping the Anunnaki, were really only worshiping one God who had divided Himself into many male and female offices.

I have the same trouble believing the Tuatha de Danann from Ireland were ever one male God either.

Allegro's theory is, probably, sound for the spread of Abrahamic monotheism, but it falls short when dealing with the natural beliefs which were killed by the spread of Yhvhism.

None-the-less, it has been an interesting discussion, and I will keep an eye out for Allegro's book to see what else he posits concerning the development of man's perception of God.

~ Wandering Scribe

It might be interesting here to look at the relationship in Sumeria and Babylonia between the magic circle and the plan of Divine rule, i'll be drawing on the research from here.

The term for a magic circle was gišhurru... magic circle; plan, design, model, archetype.

Looking at examples of usage it is interesting to note that when the Anzu bird stole the Tablet of Destiny, which granted control of the Universe, then this is termed the gis-hur, the Divine plan.

-Ninurta and the Turtle T.1.6.3 :

When Anzu is struck he loses the divine perogatives he stole and explains:

(Segment B, l.3)
"As I let the divine plan go out of my hand, this divine plan returned to the abzu."

In this case ĝiš-hur is rendered divine plan.



- The lament for Sumer and Urim T.2.2.3

1-2. To overturn the appointed times, to obliterate the divine plans, the storms gather to strike like a flood.

Here ĝiš-hur is rendered divine plans.



-Amar-Suena and Enki's temple (Amar-Suena A) T.2.4.3.1

In the fourth year it remained in ruins, and he did not restore it. Although he had been advised (?) by a sage, he could not realise the plans of the temple.

Here ĝiš-hur is rendered the plans.



-Sîn-iddinam and Iškur (Sîn-iddinam E) T.2.6.6.5

"who puts in order the divine plans of Eridug, who makes perfect offerings to the gods; the wise one who has restored the ancient divine powers, ……"

Here ĝiš-hur is rendered divine plans (Part of the royal praise of a king).

When the creation of a magic circle is described then the term is the same;

The gypsum and bitumen which they smear on the door of the sick man.
:The gypsum is Ninurta. The bitumen is Asakku. Ninurta pursues Asakku.

The circle of flour (zi-sur-ra-a) which surrounds the bed of the sick man.
:Lugalgirra and Meslamtaea.

The three heaps of flour which they cast down.
:Anu, Enlil, and Ea.

. The design (giš-hur-ra) which they draw in front of the bed.
:That is a net and traps Any Evil.

The drum and cymbals which are resplendent at the head of the sick man.
:The drum is Anu. The cymbals are Enlil.

The standards which are set up at the head of the sick man.
:They are Sibitti, the great gods, sons of Išhara.

The scapegoat which is placed at the head of the sick man.
:Ninamaškuga, Enlil's shepherd.

The censor and torch placed in the house of the sick man.
:The censor is Kusu. The torch is Nusku

It would seem probable that the design of the magic circle was thus also associated with the plan of the cosmos, probably inscribed on a wooden drawing board.

Interesting casting Circles! Hmmm I realize this goes off topic, but I have had some syncs to better ancient texts I wish to share...

The Key of Solomon is the most famous and important of all Grimoires, or handbooks of Magic. As A.E. Waite has stated, "At the head of all, and, within certain limits, the inspiration and the source of all, stands the Key of Solomon.

I know the seal of Solomon and Solomanic Magic with his ring he could summon Daemons/Demons and control them. He loaned this ring (precious LOL) to a boy who was constantly harassed by demons. He binds them or seals them within magic circles.


Hmmm where have seen this before?
As starmaps from The Enoch Translations over at FL

One of my favorite paintings by Waterhouse is of drawing magic circles!

I am going to add to the description of the painting with my own interpretation. Notice she is not malevolent only intense. Now some say she is being protected from the Seven Ravens and the Frog, but perhaps she has summed them? Either way she has no fear of them and they are left out. She has been brought or gathered a bouquet of flowers, some of which she will use (in her gown). In her right hand (the male side) She holds a long wand of black wood (walnut?) and in her left (The female side) a sickle or scythe but in the shape of the Crescent moon and her connection to a moon Deity.

Her feet are bare so she is connected to the Earth. Notice there is fire along the circle she draws evident from the smoke that rises. She wears a blue gown and red sash, the light blue is the twilight or morning dawn and the red is possibly the evening or unknown to me and depicts Akkadian or Summerian (not Persian or Greek) warrior who I believe she is empowering. Her hairstyle is like that of an early Anglo-Saxon, and there is no doubt of the beauty of her within this circle.


Finally I am able to remember a bit...But personally if I keep having forgetful charms cast on me!
When I finally wake there will be hell to pay! If only I had Solomon's Ring back (little precious...)

Now I need to remember where I left those KEYS silly keymaster who is forgetful...LOL

Oh and as far as placing Powder around certain sick men's beds, might be useless! Especially if they have Modern Problems...

reply to post by abeverage



I like that painting thanks, and FL do very much concern themselves with what a plan of a magic circle should involve.


Some more thoughts,

Horowitz examines a late Babylonian flake which shows a square (listing the four winds) enclosed by a circle, which "suggests that the winds blew in a circular region," and he cites texts which state (e.g.) kippat šār erbetti "circle of the four winds."

What is involved with a magic circle is in effect the totality of the spiritual winds, quoting from here

What's interesting about these religio-magical phenomena is their consistent visualization in terms of wind; my contention however is that in many cases, the word used which, may carry a connotation of wind, has in many cases the implication of an entity or intelligence.

Of course that is correct, winds were always associated with Divine intelligence.

The South wind which served Ea.
The East wind which served Enlil
The North wind which served Adad and Ninurta.
The West wind which served Anu.

But it is also seen that the wind could carry dust up from the Netherworld such that man could see the spirits;

"Then what did the stormwind bring?
It blew the dust of the mountains into my eyes.
When I tried to wipe the corner of my eyes with my hand, I got some of it out, but was not able to get all of it out. I raised my eyes to the lower land, and saw the high gods of the land where the sun rises. I raised my eyes to the highlands, and saw the exalted gods of the land where the sun sets.
I saw a solitary ghost. I recognized a solitary god by her appearance.
I saw someone who possesses fully the divine powers.
I was looking at someone whose destiny was decided by the gods."

This magic dust is associated with the mountain of the horizon, the place of ascension into the Heavens or descent into the Underworld.

The Sumerian behind the term "dust of the mountain" is sahar kur-ra and occurs in two additional ETCSL texts:

Inanna's descent - the plea to rescue Inanna from her death:
" Father Nanna, don't let anyone kill your daughter in the underworld. Don't let your precious metal be alloyed there with the dirt of the underworld [sahar kur-ra]. "

The Lament for Sumer and Ur - description of the world turned upside down:

" Heaven was darkened, it was covered by a shadow; the mountains roared. Utu lay down at the horizon, dust passed over the mountains [sahar kur-ra]. Nanna lay at the zenith, the
people were afraid. "

And here one see's that the dust of the Earth/Netherworld can indeed be used to summon and see ghosts;

"1 ...
2 ... dust of the earth/netherworld [SAHAR qi2-qi2-ri(?)]....
3 let it (the dust) br[ing] up a ghost to me from the
4 darkness. L[et] the tendons [bring] the dead to life.."

...the ritual accompaniment for this necromantic incantation involves mixing "dust from the crossroads, (and) dust of a jumping cricket (?) of the steppe" with a few other objects and smearing this on the skull - which would then contain the summoned ghost. Presumably the dust of the crossroads and the cricket of the steppe would be the ritual equivalent of the dust of the netherworld - hence it seems to be this substance which empowers the necromantic rite to see the ghost

It is considered that the character Šu-kale-tuda who gets the dust in his eyes and can then see, and violate, Inanna, is representative of the Necromantic arts, from here

And to counter this she becomes as one with the Southern and Northern wind;

Inana was considering what should be done because of her genitals.
She mounted on a cloud, took (?) her seat there and . . .
The south wind and a fearsome storm flood went before her.

She stretched herself like a rainbow across the sky and reached thereby as far as the earth.
She let the south wind pass across, she let the north wind pass across.
From fear, Šu-kale-tuda tried to make himself as tiny as possible,
but the woman had found him among the mountains.

Probably with regards to the negative qualities of those winds;

The south wind, when it blows, dizzies people with dust.
The north wind when mightily blowing splits open the broad land.
The east wind, which has caused the rain above to rain down its lightning
The west wind is evil,* tirelessly brings devastation to the arallû-plains.

Kantzveldt
reply to post by abeverage

 

I like that painting thanks, and FL do very much concern themselves with what a plan of a magic circle should involve.

edit on 23-9-2013 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)

I had hope that you would, like it.

Being the science minded person that I am I remembered her association with Venus and came across some different interpretations. I love this description of her Astral form!

I was repulsed by Šu-kale-tuda and his eluding her. I thought his punishment should have been more severe and as well punish the father for trying to hide him! But who am I to tell a Goddess how to handle her revenge?

She is was sleeping, and it was best just to let her rest!

reply to post by abeverage


It's an interesting enough reconstruction, and of course one of the essentials for any magic circle is generally considered to be the Pentagram which is the division of the ecliptic plane according to 5 rising points of Venus.

Kantzveldt
reply to post by abeverage

 

It's an interesting enough reconstruction, and of course one of the essentials for any magic circle is generally considered to be the Pentagram which is the division of the ecliptic plane according to 5 rising points of Venus.

Ah the pentagram, I wondered if we would circle around to that (yes pun indeed...meh...).
Now when inscribed in a circle the pentagram is then properly known as a Pentacle if anyone is interested. If you are further interested...

Chevy's little duck voice is a nice sync into some more pun I mean fun with Disney esoteric, surly exoteric if it was on Disney? Hmm Donald Duck...

reply to post by abeverage



So then we have pretty much understood what was involved with ritual communication involving the wind and spirits, and the staff that is used to draw the circle in the magical dust is the pure staff of Office given to Ninsubura by Anu, and that she controls access to and from the doors of infinty and beyond, so really all that remains is to open the doors...

Kantzveldt
reply to post by abeverage

 

So then we have pretty much understood what was involved with ritual communication involving the wind and spirits, and the staff that is used to draw the circle in the magical dust is the pure staff of Office given to Ninsubura by Anu, and that she controls access to and from the doors of infinty and beyond, so really all that remains is to open the doors...

And what exactly does it take to open those doors Kantz? Hmmm?

Well...if they are opened how I think? Hehe...

Let's see am I more Peter Venkman...

Or Louis Tully/Vinz Clortho Keymaster...

I suppose I am a little bit of both!

What happens if those doors are opened?

In my example we all know how that turns out! LOL sorry to add a bit a levity, but I a am joker, what can I say? I want to change some perspectives with a grin!

On a serious note, both Harold Ramis and especially Dan Aykroyd pulled the protagonists from ancient Sumerian writing and mythology.

But the brilliance comes from the "Choosing" of the form of the Destructor. Even laughingly as a Giant Marshmallow man!

I happen to believe that humanity has the power to create reality if not completely at least influence out comes at the quantum level. If you pour enough Fear and Terror into the minds of people those personal "Demons" can manifest in all sorts of horrible ways.

It often makes me wonder if some Ancient and Angry Deity should ever come back and just like Ivo Shandor believe that humanity is to sick to continue (who doesn't think that some days?). With all of our entertainment media of DOOM PORN... Comet's/Asteroids/Monsters/Zombies/Nuclear War would we "Choose" our own destruction this way? Are we manipulated to manifesting and bringing about our own destruction?


If it were left to me I probably would think of a Giant Marshmallow man! It's way more interesting to look at the humor of humanity than the horror.
And if I gotta go I am gonna go with a smile!


Life can be to much fun to dwell on the Horror, if we could imagine our Destruction we could just as easily imagine a bright and beautiful future! Adults are made to believe they must give up or loose their imaginations! This is a LIE! Human imaginations are controlled by the media to prop up the lifestyle of the elite! And though they believe themselves Adults they are in fact still children, a bunch of Power hungry Greedy little brats!

I think there is another way...

I think we need to grow up, but not in way we have always been taught! Maturity does not mean having no imagination not having the heart of child! Once I think we have enough people seeing the happiness inside themselves, once they have used a so called "Necronomicon" to excise the Demons that exist within, once they let go of Greed, Power and Control.

Any Alchemy you do, any magik incantations from any Grimoire, will lead you back to the same place the only real power comes from LOVE. Love from within, Loving others as you love yourself not vainly, or with strings. Love from within manifests without and surrounds you, opening your heart to Loves light. Once I see that in people, if I were the solution, if I held the Key...

I will gladly take my key turn the lock and Throw open the Gates!

reply to post by abeverage



I don't know but i don't remember reading anything about key holders in Sumerian literature, can one seriously expect to find answers in popular culture of today, doesn't this have it's own agenda...?

Kantzveldt
reply to post by abeverage

 

I don't know but i don't remember reading anything about key holders in Sumerian literature, can one seriously expect to find answers in popular culture of today, doesn't this have it's own agenda...?

Yes, I suppose it does have it's own agenda. I am poor product of my culture trying to break free I guess?

I thought I remembered a lock being wrenched but unable to be opened in the decent? Perhaps I just assumed any lock must have a key. Maybe this is best left to those seeking the knowledge in these obscure books.

Honestly all I know is nothing.

reply to post by Kantzveldt

I don't know but i don't remember reading anything about key holders in Sumerian literature

Did the Sumerians even have locks? I'm pretty sure they just used door-bars and other non-mechanical technology for securing their cities, grain stores, and homes. Suffice it to say, you don't need a key to "unlock" a door-bar: you need to be on the side with the bar, ha ha.

can one seriously expect to find answers in popular culture of today, doesn't this have it's own agenda...?

A handful of threads I've participated in recently have been using the Ghost Busters franchise as evidence of some kind of supernatural event. Specifically, I think this marks the second time someone has tried to tie it into Sumer and the Anunnaki.

It breaks my heart that people think the Sumerian religion was rampant with demons and monsters and evil. In reality, that was a very small part of the Sumerian way of life, becoming more prevalent in Babylon and extremely prevalent in Judeo-Christian lore.

None-the-less, I suppose people will find evidence of what they seek anywhere they look.



On a different note, I enjoyed the discussion on magic circles. While I tend to think that, more often than not, the reference was to divine plans, the Dup Šimati, or the me. Especially in the myth Ninurta and the Turtle, which takes place after Ninurta has defeated the Imdugud bird and reclaimed the Dup Šimati from him.

It is, however, still fun to hypothesize on whether or not the Babylonians had a concept of the metaphysical space so popular in Medieval and Renaissance magical practices.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

Locking Devices have been known since antiquity. Just because Sumerian is not my forte doesn't mean I do not know how to read, it also doesn't mean I am not learning...


"Gatekeeper, ho, open thy gate!
Open thy gate that I may enter!
If thou openest not the gate to let me enter,
I will break the door, I will wrench the lock,
I will smash the door-posts, I will force the doors.
I will bring up the dead to eat the living.
And the dead will outnumber the living."
The gatekeeper opened his mouth and spoke,
Spoke to the lady Ishtar:
"Desist, O lady, do not destroy it.
I will go and announce thy name to my queen Ereshkigal."

Geez she sounds just so pissed! smashing and using force! Makes you wonder if it was for a lacksidasical husband or something else?

Something tells me however that Ereshkigal the goddess of all Irkalla, might have some pretty powerful locks on the doors that allow access to the Underworld. I have found her similarities to Hel most interesting considering they are two of the most prominent Female propritars of the Underworld beside Hades and The Devil. The fact that Kantz and I have discussed the how these myths populated and spread to the Northern Europe is something I find most intriguing as well. So when I was told to go to HEL I most certainly did. See Hel lived beneath one of the main roots of Yggdrasil tree! Kantz will see the connection momentarily...Yggdrasil links the 9 Worlds as well as the Tree was where Odin the ALL FATHER hung for 9 Nights...The Bifröst or Rainbow Bridge becomes part of the tree and acts as a Portal or StarGate! Now anytime Kantz you want to spend less time In mesopotamia and little time in Asgard let me know and bring a coat it can be cold as HEL.

I thought about not linking this, but this is not casting pearls it is casting circles and I love Rainbows!


I learned so much more esoteric knowledge from Henson, than from any moldy old Tome or recreation of a work of fiction...

I just hope Kermit's message hasn't sank beneath your wisdom like a stone!

You so easily dismiss modern entertainment yet here we sit discussing a fictional book based on another Fictional book based within the fictional universe created by an Author for sci-fi pulp magazines, Many of which I read before I was twelve!

I actually happen to enjoy H.P. Lovecraft and often revisit his writings having written a college paper on him and the effects of horror and science fiction horror on modern popular culture. If anyone would like to debate or discus his works in another thread I would happily do so!

As the universe he created became richer and more pronounced the beings became less ancient god like monsters and more Ancient Bizarre Aliens before humans understood what Aliens could mean. His works were more science fiction horror and Ancient Aliens then it was the gothic horror of how it is portrayed. You were much more likely to get SLIMED or OOZED then bloody or gory LOL

What I try to do is ad levity to the conversation especially when we are talking seriously about Fictional/Fictional book.

Oh and when you call Winds wear deep blue Zephyr dress and a lavender silk scarf it will allow you see, but keep the dust out


If my tone sounds harsh in this reply please do not take it as such.

Yet, I will gladly admit for as much as I know, I still know nothing...