Prophecy proves God

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

I just had to stop the vid after the prayer to post.
I'm no fan of Hagee or large western religion, but I am
true to my Father in Heaven and love Christ and
do know truth when I hear it. This is good.

Anyone who wants to rag on believers should just move
on cause we have some thingss to discuss here among ourselves.
and this is posted in the right place.

Leaving you in the wrong place. Literally !

edit on 30-8-2013 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

I'll agree he is over theatric, but his facts in this video are sound, and the study I have is amazing.

Originally posted by scojak

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb
www.youtube.com...

If you are going to comment I suggest you watch the whole video.

Suggestion noted.

I have a more in depth comment on this, however, I unfortunately cannot post this.

There is to much information that is interrelated if I post some and not all it makes the argument appear weaker than it is. I tried my best above to summarize

Originally posted by Lone12

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb
reply to post by Lone12

 

If you would like proven prophecies I would love to tell you some of them.

- not that i need proven prophecies to get me convinced - i m convinced already

...but yes, do show some of them

regards,

What is the mathematical possibility of just one man accidentally fulfilling, or maybe even purposefully manipulating over 300 predictions written hundreds of years before his birth?
What is the likelihood of a person predicting today the exact city in which the birth of a future leader would take place? This is indeed what the prophet Micah did 700 years before the Messiah. Further, what is the likelihood of predicting the precise manner of death that a new, unknown religious leader would experience, a thousand years from now - a manner of death presently unknown, and to remain unknown for hundreds of years? Yet, this is what David did in 1000 B.C.
Again, what is the likelihood of predicting the specific date of the appearance of some great future leader, hundreds of years in advance? This is what Daniel did, 530 years before Christ.
If one were to conceive 50 specific prophecies about a person in the future, whom one had never met, just what's the likelihood that this person will fulfill all 50 of the predictions? How much less would this likelihood be if 25 of these predictions were about what other people would do to him, and were completely beyond his control?
For example, how does someone "arrange" to be born in a specific family?
How does one "arrange" to be born in a specified city, in which their parents don't actually live? How does one "arrange" their own death - and specifically by crucifixion, with two others, and then "arrange" to have their executioners gamble for his clothing? How does one "arrange" to be betrayed in advance? How does one "arrange" to have the executioners carry out the regular practice of breaking the legs of the two victims on either side, but not their own? Finally, how does one "arrange" to escape from a grave and appear to people after having been killed?
Indeed, it may be possible for someone to fake one or two of the Messianic prophecies, but it would be impossible for any one person to arrange and fulfill all of these prophecies.
The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given event will occur. The value and accuracy of the science of probability has been well established beyond doubt - for example, insurance rates are fixed according to statistical probabilities.
Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different classes representing some 600 university students. The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous agreement even among the most skeptical students.
However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even more conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make their own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American Scientific Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented.
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average population of Bethlehem from the time of Micah to the present; then they divided it by the average population of the earth during the same period.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one in 300,000
After examining eight different prophecies in a similar fashion they combined the probabilities and conservatively estimated there is one chance in 10^17 (one, followed by 17 zeros) of a single person fulfilling them all.
ore than three hundred prophecies from the Old Testament which deal with the first advent of Christ have been listed. Every one of them was completely fulfilled by Jesus Christ. (4)
From these figures, Professor Stoner, concludes the fulfillment of only these eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of the prophecies. However this is only eight prophecies. How about one person fulfilling just 48 of the over 300 prophecies? Stoner calculated these odds at one chance in 10^157

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

But the argument...especially by Hagee....is already weak. Its not the message....but who you are getting it from.

The Bible says...beware of false prophets...and here you are citing one. We arent supposed to listen to these people. Im hoping that becomes clear to you down the road.

We have yet to see anything...anything at all...come to pass from any other the "doomsday" tv-vid preachers. Nothing. We are still waiting....

With that, I hope you understand..

Originally posted by Lone12

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb
reply to post by Lone12

 

If you would like proven prophecies I would love to tell you some of them.

- not that i need proven prophecies to get me convinced - i m convinced already

...but yes, do show some of them

regards,

. DANIEL'S AMAZING PROPHECY - THE MESSIAH TIMEFRAME
When Isaiah uttered the prophecy that Cyrus would be God's instrument for rebuilding Jerusalem and the temple, both were intact and standing. How did Isaiah know they would be destroyed? Even if he got lucky in predicting the destruction, how did he know they would be rebuilt? If that is not convincing enough, how did the prophets know the rebuilding would occur after 70 years and be authorized by someone named Cyrus who would not even be born for more than a century? This is not a vague, imprecise Nostradamus-like prediction. Isaiah prophesied the rebuilding and who would be responsible, all of which came to pass, demonstrating that Isaiah was speaking for God and once again proving the incredible accuracy of Bible prophecy.
However, despite Cyrus being the first to issue the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, most scholars believe the fourth decree of Artaxerxes is the one by which Daniel was referring to. It provides the most compelling evidence for fulfilling all the requirements predicted by Daniel. We are told the date for this decree was issued in the month of Nissan without a specific day, however many scholars argue that when the day of the month is not given in Jewish chronologies it is assumed that the first day is meant. If that is the case then we have an exact date for this decree. The 1st of Nisan, in the 20th year of King Artaxerxes of Babylon which corresponds to March 14, 445 BC. Sixty-nine weeks, or 483 years later, the Messiah would come.
To figure out this time frame on our own calendar we need to examine how biblical years are calculated in relationship to our Gregorian calendar system. Several places in scripture (Genesis 7:11,24, 8:3-4, Revelation 12:6,14 ) give us clear examples of a calendar system based upon 360 days per year. With this in mind we can be more precise and find out the exact day that the Messiah was predicted to come. 360 days times 69 years gives us 173,880 days. If we add that number to March 14, 445 BC we come to April 6, 32AD. This date (including leap year calculations) was confirmed through astronomical calculations at the British Royal Observatory and reported by Sir Robert Anderson in his famous work "The Coming Prince" (12)
What is so special about April 6, 32AD?
We are told this is the time period until the Messiah "comes" but comes to where? Is this referring to his birth, his baptism or something else? The entire prophecy is focused on the Jews and Jerusalem, so we can conclude that the Messiah would "come" to Jerusalem. Furthermore, he is referred to as "the Anointed One, the Messiah, the Prince" so from this we know that he would come as a ruler or King. The prophet Zechariah predicted the manner in which this would take place saying, "Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter
of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey..." (Zechariah 9:9).

Originally posted by mysterioustranger
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

But the argument...especially by Hagee....is already weak. Its not the message....but who you are getting it from.

The Bible says...beware of false prophets...and here you are citing one. We arent supposed to listen to these people. Im hoping that becomes clear to you down the road.

We have yet to see anything...anything at all...come to pass from any other the "doomsday" tv-vid preachers. Nothing. We are still waiting....

With that, I hope you understand..

Lol he isn't a prophet first off. He is just a man, and just because he has a bad public reputation, and been wrong before doesn't mean he doesn't have facts.

I am not saying the argument is strong cause it comes from him, and trust me the argument is not weak if you look into it, and some of the other signs, such as the rebirth of Israel in 1948 being the start of the clock ticking for the time frame.

However, I would like to say that even though I believe God is the one who leads me in my research that I am human, and this very well could be dead wrong. There have been more than enough prophecies fulfilled in the past such as the destruction of tyre, and if you think it wasn't specific in detail people should refer to the original language to clear up any doubt. Cyrus mentioned above was called out by name hundreds of years before he was born, and people still want to try and argue....

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

Im reminded of an event where the room was filled with 1000 Christians. On the right of them was 1,000 Muslems. In the middle were 1000 Hebrews. And all on the periphery were Buddists, Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormans and 1000's of other denominations. Each sat with their own respect Holy Books in their laps.

Could you prove the point of prophecy that would apply to all of them? Would it be addressing with respect...and the fact that you werent trying to convert them....the fact that they have their own belief systems and Gods in fact?

Would that make your point to each in their respective ways of thinking? If some laughed as some raised their hands in praise...would you be upset?

You see...my way of thinking...even as a Christian...is that I dont care if they dont believe. And thats because I too would have to take a seat and listen to them about their Gods and the validity of their prophecies. And...if I wanted to be taken seriously...I would have to accept their RIGHT to belief their ways, their "GOD" and not be sidetracked by which is right or not. They have as much a right to not-believe, or call their God and Gods by whatever deity name they choose.

So, as long as you arent talking about any "specific" GOD (the Hindus have dozens!), prophecy may or may bot be acceptable to them. You have to direct this to them all...and not just go to the Bible...or Koran....or Talmud.

So in closing, I think youre addressing only Christians here, about the Christian God. It maybe better served to find your conclusions here in all of the Holy Books no matter the religion. Then you'd really have made your point!!

Blessings to you....MS

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

Perhaps this will make you think too. If one goes into a bookstore and asks the clerk where the Bible is....the clerk usually responds with "WHICH one 'you lookin' for? The St. James VERSION? The Concordia? The Catholic Bible? The Mormon Bible? So you want the new edition? The regular edition? The annotated edition?"

It does make you think when one considers the Holy Bible as "the literal word-of-GOD"? Funny how that is....so one does have to be careful when consulting and quoting from it. Folks could well ask you..."Which one is THAT from"??

reply to post by mysterioustranger


I am on a trip I will respond when I reach my destination around twelve tonight central time

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

not necessary...but if you wish! Safe trip to you! Peace...out

Originally posted by mysterioustranger
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

Im reminded of an event where the room was filled with 1000 Christians. On the right of them was 1,000 Muslems. In the middle were 1000 Hebrews. And all on the periphery were Buddists, Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormans and 1000's of other denominations. Each sat with their own respect Holy Books in their laps.

Could you prove the point of prophecy that would apply to all of them? Would it be addressing with respect...and the fact that you werent trying to convert them....the fact that they have their own belief systems and Gods in fact?

Would that make your point to each in their respective ways of thinking? If some laughed as some raised their hands in praise...would you be upset?

You see...my way of thinking...even as a Christian...is that I dont care if they dont believe. And thats because I too would have to take a seat and listen to them about their Gods and the validity of their prophecies. And...if I wanted to be taken seriously...I would have to accept their RIGHT to belief their ways, their "GOD" and not be sidetracked by which is right or not. They have as much a right to not-believe, or call their God and Gods by whatever deity name they choose.

So, as long as you arent talking about any "specific" GOD (the Hindus have dozens!), prophecy may or may bot be acceptable to them. You have to direct this to them all...and not just go to the Bible...or Koran....or Talmud.

So in closing, I think youre addressing only Christians here, about the Christian God. It maybe better served to find your conclusions here in all of the Holy Books no matter the religion. Then you'd really have made your point!!

Blessings to you....MS

Prophecy doesn't apply to every book only the Bible was inspired by God.

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb

What is the mathematical possibility of just one man accidentally fulfilling, or maybe even purposefully manipulating over 300 predictions written hundreds of years before his birth?

What is the mathematical probability that a race of people who were definitely around at the time and from whom this mythology/predictions were largely borrowed, don't believe it? Could be a good reason for that.

What is the mathematical probability that a certain person, said to fulfill certain prophecies, is entirely a myth made up of many stories to do just that. When you also take into account that there isn't anything in a historical sense (outside of fabrication and religious mythology) to indicate he existed to begin with? When you also factor in likeness to other mythology and that obviously many of the claims are not possible (and thus have exactly 0% chance of ever happening)?

The probability of Christ being a complete myth, or at least a conglomeration of myths attributed to someone, seems very high (somewhere around 100% with a variance of +/- 0%).

Originally posted by mysterioustranger
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

Perhaps this will make you think too. If one goes into a bookstore and asks the clerk where the Bible is....the clerk usually responds with "WHICH one 'you lookin' for? The St. James VERSION? The Concordia? The Catholic Bible? The Mormon Bible? So you want the new edition? The regular edition? The annotated edition?"

It does make you think when one considers the Holy Bible as "the literal word-of-GOD"? Funny how that is....so one does have to be careful when consulting and quoting from it. Folks could well ask you..."Which one is THAT from"??

Ok every translation is pulled from the earliest and most accurate manuscripts, and any English version you get is going to need study because you must understand the original language in order to interpret the Bible literally. The Catholic and Mormon Bible? There Bibles are the same they both use the king james version. The Catholics include a few more books, but its very easy to see why these have been thrown out by other denominations. I am not sure what your argument is here

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

see...my point exactly....but not all believe the bible....and there are atheists as well....who have opinions.

you would have to listen to them too...if you want them to consider your opinion...unless you consider them in-valid as a religionor theological way of thinking and believing....

if you are just preaching Christianity, its point of view and Holy Book, then you evangelizing for Christians...and that means youre missing 2/3 of the rest of them...where Im sure that they believe differently...and from their good books...

that's my only point...

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

Yes I am a Christian...my only argument is you are sourcing from the Bible...but in a broader sense...you are not reaching those who have their own books...(at least TRY to go forth and minister to all the world...that's where convert come from.)

Belief and faith aside...it would be better if said... that prophecy from ALL religious...proves God. Otherwise, youre just referring to the Christian God, and are missing a whole ton of potential converts.

That's just my opinion...and the St. James VERSION title has always bothered me too....(please no explaining it to me.)

I just always wondered how an Earthly King can change and omit what is supposed to be the "literal word-of-god"

"VERSION" has always got me. (yes yes, I know about the Council of Nicea).

Thanx for the responses...going forward...Im out....Peace

Originally posted by mysterioustranger
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

Yes I am a Christian...my only argument is you are sourcing from the Bible...but in a broader sense...you are not reaching those who have their own books...(at least TRY to go forth and minister to all the world...that's where convert come from.)

Belief and faith aside...it would be better if said... that prophecy from ALL religious...proves God. Otherwise, youre just referring to the Christian God, and are missing a whole ton of potential converts.

That's just my opinion...and the St. James VERSION title has always bothered me too....(please no explaining it to me.)

I just always wondered how an Earthly King can change and omit what is supposed to be the "literal word-of-god"

"VERSION" has always got me. (yes yes, I know about the Council of Nicea).

Thanx for the responses...going forward...Im out....Peace

Well my brother or sister in Christ let me leave you with this. The prophecies in the other books won't and haven't came true, and the all teach different a different gospel than the Bible which Galatians 1:6-10 says is the sign of a false prophet. If I tried to include prophecies in Gods plan that were not written by God it would not fit, do you see? If you are Christian you should understand that God calls false idols to predict the future in Isaiah 41:21-23. The fact that he can predicting future in specific detail is aspect of the creator of the universe God and he has only done so in the Bible is why I believe its prophecies are the way to prove God While I love the people from other religions and want them to know the truth if we tell them that their books to have the truth then we are lying to them. I in good faith cannot lie to them knowing it would cost them their souls.

Originally posted by Cogito, Ergo Sum

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb

What is the mathematical possibility of just one man accidentally fulfilling, or maybe even purposefully manipulating over 300 predictions written hundreds of years before his birth?

What is the mathematical probability that a race of people who were definitely around at the time and from whom this mythology/predictions were largely borrowed, don't believe it? Could be a good reason for that.

What is the mathematical probability that a certain person, said to fulfill certain prophecies, is entirely a myth made up of many stories to do just that. When you also take into account that there isn't anything in a historical sense (outside of fabrication and religious mythology) to indicate he existed to begin with? When you also factor in likeness to other mythology and that obviously many of the claims are not possible (and thus have exactly 0% chance of ever happening)?

The probability of Christ being a complete myth, or at least a conglomeration of myths attributed to someone, seems very high (somewhere around 100% with a variance of +/- 0%).

edit on 31-8-2013 by Cogito, Ergo Sum because: for the heck of it.

Lol questioning Jesus as a person always a good last line of defense for someone who has no factual information.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


respectfully, If you dont believe it then why you in this thread?

This states it is for believers to discus.

Create your own thread if you want to discus your dis belief.

Much respect

Next time you attempt to give probabilities, you should study some Probablility Theory and how Causality affects it.

If a group of religious people expect something to happen at a certain point in time, or during a specific "event", their eyes will be open for it. "This is the sign!" and "Oh look! There it is!".

You nicely provided 483 years (I believe it was), and referred to a section in the bible as a source, but it did not state that. I wonder what kind of arithmetic is required to put the pieces together to suit one's needs.

When it comes to "what are the chances that this person was born in Bethlehem at that exact point in time?"
What is the chance that Maria travels to Bethlehem from Nazareth to fulfill a prophecy in order to stick to the story? Could it be 100%?
Also, please understand that the time when Jesus was born was definitely not the "right time", if it was, there would be no jews, because they would have no reason to doubt Jesus to be...Jesus.
But if we ignore that fact, Maria still used the opportunity to try get away / solve the problem that she cheated, got raped or got raped while unconscious, by among other things, delivering the baby in Bethlehem to fulfill the prophecy.

What is the likelihood that Jesus got killed? The same as for all other who claimed to be their savior but who wasn't taken to be that.

Please understand that your figures are fundamentally flawed.

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb
Lol questioning Jesus as a person always a good last line of defense for someone who has no factual information.

Never my last line, it is the first thing that should be pointed out to religious zealots. Where christ is concerned, there is no factual information. No more than there is for Romulus or Osiris, probably less than for Robin and his merry men, or King Arthur. I take it the lol is the limit of facts you are able to supply. There is plenty that is claimed to be factual, by people who don't understand the difference between fact and belief.