If there really is a God or some supreme being or superior Alien Civilization....Where are they?

Originally posted by GBP/JPY
reply to post by ItDepends

 

You posted as if you don't know the sunday school story....so read about it! It's great reading and has an answer for anything you wonder about. And don't skip over the part about how it's coming down the pipeline any minute.....

Trust me, I was indoctrinated by all the stories. Is is not fair, logical as we begin to learn more, to question these things? Should one live in fear should we do? Fear of what? That is my point we were told all about these miraculous things and that HE would return.

No one in their logical mind can look and see the pure devastation, the mindless killing of children, torture of our fellow man, and then BELIEVE that a loving GOD would allow this......HIS presence has been absent...Where is HE, or has he forsaken US, just as JESUS on the cross?

I don't mean to turn this thread into a religious or theological discussion....That TOO has been going on for over two thousand years.....a lot of good that has done, more wars, more death, more obscene abuse, hatred, many times in the name of a Higher Power....a GOD....all through our history, prior to AD, the Greeks, Romans...no appearance....How can a GOD stand by and allow all this suffering and abuse and killing??? If there is a GOD where is he?

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Maybe god is all around you, is everything, but it is the finite human mind that cannot understand its true nature. Sure we cant ignore atrocities, but we cant assume that god should be all good either. It is what it is.

Thanks smithjustinb, "is that what it is"? I honestly don't know, but should it be a guess? an uncertainty?

Well, perhaps our humanness can not understand. But God did create us according to some religious and theological beliefs. Does it make sense though, that if he really does exist, that he would create something that would not understand HIM?

My original statement is a simple one....one that man can understand, and through reason, thinking, experiences simply asks, If God exists, where is he?

There are millions of views over our history, especially in the last 2,000 years as to what God meant, from religious scholars. However, in the end, were these teachings, these Holy Documents really Divinely inspired or just the imagination of men who had nothing better to do, just to create, embellish upon one and other. They lacked hope....their lives were forsaken.......Now today....2,000 plus years later, when things seem so bleak, dark, WHERE IS GOD?

If you say he is in us....ok. But apparently if he is, there are a lot of people acting in HIS name, killing people, and even more recently, in the name of GOD a couple allowed their young child die, because the refused medical attention...their belief, if they prayed, GOD would save this child.....he died, all in the name of GOD.

Makes many logical, reasonable people question, would a true loving GOD who supposedly created us, allow this to happen??? Where is GOD?

reply to post by ItDepends


youre dealing with the philosophical question of suffering, esp of the innocent.


is it fair though to start the conversation in the middle of the theme and not at the beginning? If you presuppose theres a God.....after the biblical fashion....then it stands to reason theres a devil. Why is there a God and a devil? As the bible says in revelation there was 'war in heaven'.

so what happens in a war....just among humans? Do innocent suffer and die? yes. so were well acquainted with the idea of collateral damage.

But you think that because God is 'in control' of everything that somehow hes just supposed to step in and stop the suffering of innocents, right? But what if there are rules.....what if there are principles involved in this war? What then? What if the caveat to having 'free will' or 'free choice' means that there MUST be allowed to exist the possibility for one person to take another persons freedom away, no? Otherwise you might have just scrapped the whole idea of free will to begin with....which is what God COULD have done....but he didnt.

so you have a grip with God about suffering of innocents......should he have not created beings with free will at all? Should he have installed a 'governor' that didnt allow them to go beyond a certain point in their freedom of thought and expression? Maybe......but he didnt....so now here we are.

something else to consider.....if God can save.....how do you know that not every single innocent person or animal that has suffered unfairly at the hands of evil men will not be granted a free entry to eternal life? God can do that.....and i know if i were him....thats exactly what i would do.....

Makes many logical, reasonable people question, would a true loving GOD who supposedly created us, allow this to happen??? Where is GOD?

he allows it to happen because it is the necessary consequence of our actions.. how are we expected to learn anything if He doesn't let us make these mistakes and witness the effects of our actions?

if a parent buys their child a pet goldfish and all the equipment required for its care, but the child neglects to feed it properly and the fish dies, can the child turn around and blame their loving parent for allowing such a tragedy to happen? of course not, its the child's fault for not understanding the extent of their actions, and not taking responsibility for what (s)he has control over, and a duty to protect..

humans have this terrible habit of avoiding taking responsibility for what they have/are done/doing.. People often say "God, if you exist, come down here and fix this mess! look at the state of things! don't you love us?".. His reply is always the same, "It's not I who do not love you, it's you guys who do not love each other.. the mess you see is your own, if you want it fixed you'll need to have faith in your ability to fix yourselves"..

It's not a question of "where is he?", it's a question of "where are we looking and what do we expect to find?".. He's been here all along, we just neglect to notice or sense his presence most of the time..

Originally posted by WhiteHat
I'm not a person believing in God, yet I don't reject it either, is kind of hard to put it in words.
In my opinion we are absolutely wrong in our assumption that God is some kind of supervisor over living realm, watching and waiting to interfere at any any moment. We are wrong perceiving God as a personal assistant who failed to do its job, because he exists only to make our life easier. And we are wrong to always put the responsibility on God.

The funny things is that after many years of escaping into eastern religions, which don't have a central god figure I started to understand the fundamental concept of God, beyond the limitation of a theistic religion.

We are of god essence. There is no separation between the ocean and its waves. The waves come and go and the ocean lose nothing; is just the natural movement of life.
But...

We have to recognize that, we have to fully know ourselves.We are like a man sitting on its leg, and wondering why he can't walk. Asking for someone to bring him a leg. We have to see and realize our own potential and immortality.
Shortly, God is waiting within to be discovered, and as long as we are searching for him outside, there's no way we can overcome the difficulties of this life. As long as we are looking for a father we'll never know who we are. And we'll always be helpless and dependent.

Thank you, WhiteHat, for your thoughtful response.

I would have to disagree with some of your current beliefs. You say we are immortal. I on the other hand believe Stars live, then they die, planets are crushed and cease to exist as they enter the great Black Holes in the Universe.

As it is for us, and any living species on our Earth....they live and they die, perish,...life is over. THE END.
Now, a whole other discussion could be made about the afterlife, reincarnation....but that is not why we are here in this thread.

There are marvels to behold for sure. I would agree, that at the end of the day, without proof of a GOD or some superior civilization out in the galaxies of space, we are left with ourselves.....true, mom and dad won't be there for us forever, nor should they be. This is our life, our existence, our path.

I believe we live and we die. We have the internal instinct of what is right and wrong. For those who wish to broaden their minds and not be limited to dogma, they search and find some answers that make sense: love, kindness, compassion, generosity, happiness.....a personal journey.....a personal journey....but found by stripping oneself of the rituals, the commands, the demands of religious and theological chains.

So, if one believes God is in us....then why all the turmoil? why the disgraceful, selfish, down right debauchery of life that we see all across this world. I come back again, the hideous things that happen to the innocent. Even to animals, the cruelty we see. If there really is a Creator of ALL of THIS...How could HE allow this to continue??

It just does not make sense. I slowly move to the seemingly apparent truth...ALL Things Must Pass, there is an end...and that is it. NO GOD, NO other superior civilization. I have searched, and at least for now, am no longer convinced of anything different. If God has shown himself in the past, and if we have been visited in the past.....Well again, WHERE ARE THEY NOW?? Peace!

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by ItDepends

 

Maybe we are the fallen and we are just trying to make our way back up the ladder so to speak. It began with Adam and ended with Christ so basically it's finished. However here in time "as we know it" the story continues. We know how it ends though and it ends good!!

God shows himself through his creation. That is why he is defined as the Word. Communicating through all means necessary to get your attention. He is the brightest light imaginable! If he showed you his true form you would not be able to sustain in the flesh. Even without the flesh your spirit cannot handle the true light that gives life because the energy would wipe you out!

Thank you MamaJ, I follow much of what you say. However, i raise doubt, Do we really know how it ends? I mean that a GOD comes and judges us and some are allowed into his Kingdom or some rendering of that??

Or is it more simple, we just simply end, our lives are over, just like the thousands of generations before us? Or is there simply a cosmic ending? The sun dies, our resources disappear? We kill ourselves, we destroy this planet? Or we are hit by some unknown mystery from space? Some may say if it happens any of those ways so be it!! That is how God wants it!!

I must clarify or be more specific, not only to you, but to everyone, I am not here to debunk GOD or maybe others out their in the vastness of the Universe.

I am simply reducing what seems to be plausible, what we know (sure it could all change in an instance) however the facts are.....GOD is no where, THEY are no where. Have we really changed in 200,000 years??? Sure we have learned, invented, created and developed more creature comforts....but that is for US. WE did it for US. Perhaps we are just an accident....evolution has just happened with no intervention by a GOD or anyone else....is that not a plausible alternative??

I too throughout my life often stopped and looked around at the amazing diversity of this world, its beauty....it just seems so incredible and not to believe that a Power, A Designer a GOD must exist. However, as time moves along....and then you see the horrible acts we as creations do to one and other, it makes you think, and you see how things live and die, just like all the laws of this Universe, Stars are born, but they die....so will WE, and GOD is now where to be found, NO WHERE to save us...it may well rest in ourselves....but we will die too. And in the end.......

If HE really does exist WHERE IS HE? If THEY exist WHERE ARE THEY? Peace!!

God is not an object that exists somewhere. God is everything.

You will find mathematical evidence of God at:

smphillips.8m.com...

Originally posted by instigatah
reply to post by ItDepends

 

youre dealing with the philosophical question of suffering, esp of the innocent.


is it fair though to start the conversation in the middle of the theme and not at the beginning? If you presuppose theres a God.....after the biblical fashion....then it stands to reason theres a devil. Why is there a God and a devil? As the bible says in revelation there was 'war in heaven'.

so what happens in a war....just among humans? Do innocent suffer and die? yes. so were well acquainted with the idea of collateral damage.

But you think that because God is 'in control' of everything that somehow hes just supposed to step in and stop the suffering of innocents, right? But what if there are rules.....what if there are principles involved in this war? What then? What if the caveat to having 'free will' or 'free choice' means that there MUST be allowed to exist the possibility for one person to take another persons freedom away, no? Otherwise you might have just scrapped the whole idea of free will to begin with....which is what God COULD have done....but he didnt.

so you have a grip with God about suffering of innocents......should he have not created beings with free will at all? Should he have installed a 'governor' that didnt allow them to go beyond a certain point in their freedom of thought and expression? Maybe......but he didnt....so now here we are.

something else to consider.....if God can save.....how do you know that not every single innocent person or animal that has suffered unfairly at the hands of evil men will not be granted a free entry to eternal life? God can do that.....and i know if i were him....thats exactly what i would do.....

No doubt these are philosophical questions, and thank you, instigatah for your response.

Is it not reasonable, plausible to think GOD, the devil, eternal life are just manifestions of people thousands of years ago who struggled in similar fashions as we do today? But, it was more in there face, destruction, killings, murders, rape, violent atrocities, the killing a newly born innocence. Would it not possibly be just a manifestation of man to create an artificial power, "you'll get yours in the end" for all those bad things you did? The threat, the fear, that something bad will happen if you do not believe like we do...."?

We see it even today.....the infidels will die if they do not accept our beliefs.

I do not have the answers, my thread was based upon what many, millions believe, that GOD would return. His own image has changed from a fearful GOD to a more loving and accepting GOD, All will be saved if you believe....if you have questions, then what?

Then others who believe there has got to be superior civilizations out there....our understanding that this Universe is 14.5 billion years old...."there's got to be others, with greater knowledge and powers", this is the new paradigm for many who have lost faith.

Just look at all the new wave religions, cults, other ways to try and understand it all. However, for the great majority of us on this earth, over 3.5 Billion of the 7 Billion of us on this planet (Christians and Islam) believe in a God and he is to return.

Well it has been more than 2,000 years Where is He. and even his son Jesus....which accounts seem to be sketchy and many different stories, however, I do believe he existed, but maybe just a well spoken, charismatic individual....but only of earthly origins.

Again, I am not here to debunk GOD or to say that some superior civilzation MAY exist, I just don't know, and have yet to see it....so I simply ask, if they do exist, WHERE ARE THEY??? I humbly question, that if they don't, we shall live and die, just like the stars...and in the end...it is the end. Plausible?

reply to post by ItDepends

Why are we looking around us for "God"? We should be looking in.

Originally posted by micpsi
God is not an object that exists somewhere. God is everything.

You will find mathematical evidence of God at:

smphillips.8m.com...

Thank you for your input, There are many thoughts on HOW to explain the existence of God. They pop up over and over again.....but these are man's manifestations, some way to prove, understand. It is like the mystic codex's of the bible. Scholars spend years, decades looking for hidden meanings.....did GOD make it so hard, so difficult to understand that it had to be hidden in some secret mystical belief?

"The Universe is a thought of the Deity. Since this ideal thought-form has overflowed into actuality, and the world born thereof has realized the plan of its creator, it is the calling of all thinking beings to rediscover in this existent whole the original design."
~ Friedrich Schiller

Just another 'man created' view from your referenced website.

So if GOD exists, WHERE IS HE? Are the atrocities of mankind, the killing of babies, murders, rapes, depravity, insanity, all in the name of god in many instances.....are the answers to be found in math, in some geometrical equation?

I'm sorry, that just sounds like another search for understanding, to try to understand in human terms and if God is all around, as you indicate, HOW can a Creator, a GOD of LOVE, stand by, and witness all of this brutality? How? WHERE IS HE?

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by ItDepends

 

Why are we looking around us for "God"? We should be looking in.

I appreciate your thoughts, intrptr. However, humans are far from perfect. What are they to look inward for? If GOD does exist where is he? HE supposedly came before we were taught. He sent prophets we were told.

Now, many believe the answer is in us, we just need to meditate, to search for goodness. I have no issue with this and have practiced this myself many times.

But the gnawing question....especially in light of a world of humans which seem bent on killing one and other and the planet itself has raised questions. I've said it before, but we are raping the earth of her natural resources, we are creating more and more of us that we cannot feed, wildlife is dying, more recently 100's of dolphins, (there have been other fish, birds, bees, etc.) that are dying., We poison one and other. We steal, kill and in many instances in the name of GOD.

My point is not to argue beliefs, however to question that if there is a GOD, is this something that HE would allow?? To the best of my knowledge no one has heard from him, seen him in over 2,000 years....maybe a fantasy? A desire for hope? I don't know, but it is reasonable to finally ask, if GOD exists, WHERE IS HE?

Originally posted by tachyonmind

Makes many logical, reasonable people question, would a true loving GOD who supposedly created us, allow this to happen??? Where is GOD?

he allows it to happen because it is the necessary consequence of our actions.. how are we expected to learn anything if He doesn't let us make these mistakes and witness the effects of our actions?

It's not a question of "where is he?", it's a question of "where are we looking and what do we expect to find?".. He's been here all along, we just neglect to notice or sense his presence most of the time..

edit on 24-8-2013 by tachyonmind because: (no reason given)

I can understand your logic, we learn by our mistakes. But lessons learned are like bridges burned, you only need to cross them once. Our species seems never to learn, and the same 'actions' repeat generation by generation. Have we learned not to steal, kill, murder, rape, commit adultery.....all basic tenements dating back thousdands of years.

If HE truly is here, HE must see the mistake, the lack of understanding, the imperfect nature of humans to change.....it is a vicious cycle. For many, they have done just as you suggest: take responsibility, be more god-like, even Mother Teresa uttered the words in some fashion questioning whether God existed, in light of all the suffering.

I think today, people are becoming more disenchanted with faith (look at the atrocities of priests acting in the name of god and abusing young boys), over and over again, all through out time, atrocities in the name of GOD have happened.

Is it not reasonable to say enough with this belief stuff, we are here all alone, just oneself, survival of the fittest. NO ONE is coming......this it it!!! Through nature, like all other living things....we are born, live x-amount of years, then we die....is that not possible?

Again, my points are not to be argumentative. Simply provoking, How could a All and Powerful God who created everything, as many believe, allow the pain, suffering and brutality continue to happen. If you believe that his Son came to save us, well nothing has changed....the day of his death and every day since......atrocities have continued and have only gotten more ugly and suffering more painful.

So if HE really does exist, if he really does care, how could he allow this to happen?? WHERE IS GOD?

reply to post by ItDepends

The short answer is that by asking me all those questions you are still looking outward for the answers. I don't have them all either. I am still "in the flesh" too.

But I can tell you that you are on the right track. You are good wood. I can tell because you are asking those very questions. You will get answers to those questions if you are patient. Life is life long. Keep them in mind and above all, be patient.

The most prominent one I hear you ask is where is God? Imagine a giant company and you trying to get to see the CEO... how easy is that? (I know, poor example) He's busy. But a rep will mail you a form letter...

I also heard someone else say, Where is God? No one has seen God. Not one person has ever seen the face of God. How do you walk with God? If you care for those around you then you are walking with God. Also stupid?

How about... we can't fix others or the world, all we can do is set an example for others to follow. Borrring...

ETA: Heres another...

When you were in the womb you were in this world but had little understanding of it. People that saw the bulge in your mothers tummy were waiting for you to come out (be born). They were waiting for that to teach you about the world. Little point in trying to teach you as long as you are still in the womb.

Some would say that we live our whole lives in a womb of sorts before we are born (die) into the next world. Everyone does it. There will be midwives in attendance there too. Just one opinion.

reply to post by ItDepends


put simply,we're on our own, always have been, there is nothing that is coming to help the dire situation created by the badly elected so called leaders through the ages of time..

and it would seem very audacious of man to have the cheek to ask for help if he believes there is something bigger than himself. according to all beliefs we had a free choice and we chose wrongly... game over, we're outa here!!

reply to post by ItDepends


Hi there.

Id quote a line from a film (Initial-D) - I think God is human. He did something spectacular, and became a God.

Don't religious folk say that its God that has given us free will? Letting us rule our own destiny.

All be it, a lot of our lives are now possibly under the control of Goverments, who have the power to send nations to war, even if you protest, you could get taken out by the enemy.

This takes away free will.

But yet we still go on.

If God turned up , what would he do? Flood us all again? Maybe God got board of trying to kill us off and will now leave us to destroy one another.

Or at least learn to finally live with each other... It may be the only way to learn this lesson. Peace born from war.

eee.

Originally posted by instigatah
so lets say God shows up one day and says ok all you skeptics and doubters....here I AM, and im real!


....then what?

you really think human nature will just *boing* change in that instant and everyone will be 'good' and do the right thing now they have this 'proof' God is real? You've got to be kidding me. Can you really be so naive as to think human nature, your nature...mine, will just suddenly change for the better?

think of the countless examples we have in our ordinary lives to prove we are incapable of keeping the 'feeling' alive for very long. The new lovers that promise forever to each other...only a few years later to gradually drift apart...start having affairs....yelling and screaming..then divorce. The new mother or father holding the newborn in their arms...looking into its eyes dreamily and with grandiose visions of how well they will raise that child..how theyll give it the world....only a few years later to be slapping it around the house for sneaking out at night or having the wrong boyfriend, girlfriend etc. The starry eyed young man that joins the police force to make a difference and help people....only later to succumb to peer pressure and start robbing drug dealers and running his own prostitution ring.

I could go on and on....every day we read about the fall of man......how the innocent turn corrupt...how the idealistic become the most hardened pessimists. And you think God showing up will magically change that?
wow.......

Very good observations instigatah!
I follow every thing you have said. I've had the miraculous opportunity to hold that brand new life, that new born in my arms. I've marveled.

However, you indicate that if GOD, A Supreme Being, Creator were to appear for all to see.....the reaction would be something of.....what's on the next channel, ho humm? Absurd analogy, i know, but the essence is, the appearance would still leave many to be skeptical, not to believe. Just his appearance alone, may not make ALL of us to do the next right thing or to change our ways.

I do believe that there is EVIL out there. My simple humble point is, after all these years, our parents, grand parents...the generations upon generations holding on to beliefs, faith, hope that there is something GREATER than ourselves and that in the end, there will be an answer to all these mysteries.....then WHY after all these years, WHY and WHERE IS GOD or HIS other creations...other civilizations???

The answer one could say is, in death we live, we find the answers...simple, but, no proof. NOT even a single thread that this happens. So, again, if there is an Almighty Creator, A GOD, or some Advanced Civilization, why HAVE THEY NOT HERE? Honestly, there is no evidence other than the fantastic minds of men that have created these false gods.

However, I kid you not, billions of people around the world are still waiting the 'return'. If there has never been a better time, then why not now, or at least an indication.....WHERE IS GOD, WHERE ARE THE ADVANCED CIVILIZATIONS?????? Or, humbly, are we simply alone, yet to understand, or possibly we have found that we are just an accident by chance as many do believe.........

Originally posted by flipflop
reply to post by ItDepends

 

put simply,we're on our own, always have been, there is nothing that is coming to help the dire situation created by the badly elected so called leaders through the ages of time..

and it would seem very audacious of man to have the cheek to ask for help if he believes there is something bigger than himself. according to all beliefs we had a free choice and we chose wrongly... game over, we're outa here!!

Thanks flipflop, your succinct answer could very well be the truth. I have struggled. But you are correct as far as I can tell, we have free will, the ability to reason, to choose, make decisions. As we have evolved (and that doesn't mean that a GOD did not have something to do with it) we have continued to follow, in the beginning, the strongest, the largest group, the powerful. So is at this time in history, we are finally coming to a close, we have made 'our on bed and have to live in it' ? Our choices. Life began, it happened and now here we are, 7 billion people (never before as far as we know) stripping resources: Oil, Coal, minerals, gases, trees, sea life for our survival, just on a daily basis as we pollute our oceans, our skies, each other. Is this it? We have come, and we will perish.....but if GOD does Exist or if there are these hundreds or thousands of ADVANCED CIVILIZATIONS, WHERE ARE THEY??

This is not to ridicule, make light of or discourage anyone's beliefs or feelings, it is merely an attempt to stop, look inward to these questions that many of us tend to ignore by the distractions of everyday life. But in the end, if you think about it, all that we were told, for many of us taught, and more recently told that THEY are there, then WHERE ARE THEY? Peace!!

Again, thank you all that have contributed your thoughts, comments and feelings. This thread is not meant to promote or disregard anyone's perspective or beliefs, but simply a forum to express your thoughts, your understandings and ultimately, what you believe.

Again, thank you, it has been a very good discussion so far.

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by ItDepends

 

The short answer is that by asking me all those questions you are still looking outward for the answers. I don't have them all either. I am still "in the flesh" too.

above all, be patient.

How about... we can't fix others or the world, all we can do is set an example for others to follow. Borrring...

ETA: Heres another...

When you were in the womb you were in this world but had little understanding of it. People that saw the bulge in your mothers tummy were waiting for you to come out (be born). They were waiting for that to teach you about the world. Little point in trying to teach you as long as you are still in the womb.

Some would say that we live our whole lives in a womb of sorts before we are born (die) into the next world. Everyone does it. There will be midwives in attendance there too. Just one opinion.

Thank you instigatah, your opinion and thoughts are valuable and well received.

Perhaps our lives is just very simple. If you stop, look and see. Mother birds fly and bring food back to their babiies and hope they will live and that first flight, the mother encourages and hopes she flies.

The chimp, holds her baby close, brings life, feeds, teaches, all in hopes of living. Dolphins, Whales, sea life, give birth, nurturing, trying to provide and perhaps hoping survival.

I cannot independently speak that these are the thoughts hopes or wishes......but these species....and the millions, YES, there are a million or more LIVING species on Earth...do they have a higher power, a GOD? I cannot answer this, but my gut feeling is NO, they simply live, and eventually die.

So, one could say, so too for us....we LIVE and we DIE. Nothing more, nothing else....just nature taking its' course. All of these GODS, often declared as false gods, the speculation of Advanced Civilizations, are purely that, speculation.

I do not judge or discourage anyone who believes or feels they know....but, as far as 'I" can tell....there is nothing but us....we live, we die and there is nothing else...it is the cycle, just like the stars, planets.....they live and they die. Personally, I have hoped for more, but, someway, somehow, I finally have come to the feeling if they: GOD or Others (Advanced Civilizations) exist, WHERE ARE THEY? Peace!!

Originally posted by Esrom Escutcheon Esquire
reply to post by ItDepends

 

Hi there.

Id quote a line from a film (Initial-D) - I think God is human. He did something spectacular, and became a God.

Don't religious folk say that its God that has given us free will? Letting us rule our own destiny.

All be it, a lot of our lives are now possibly under the control of Goverments, who have the power to send nations to war, even if you protest, you could get taken out by the enemy.

This takes away free will.

But yet we still go on.

If God turned up , what would he do? Flood us all again? Maybe God got board of trying to kill us off and will now leave us to destroy one another.

Or at least learn to finally live with each other... It may be the only way to learn this lesson. Peace born from war.

eee.

Thanks eee!! Free will, i still believe it exists, it has borne revolutions....to believe so deeply to fight and die for beliefs and new truths. Even in the most closed societies i.e. North Korea....people believe that they may have freedom, or at least try to escape....they believe in something better. Why do people migrate? They search for something better.

You ask, "If God turned up, what would he do? Flood us again? If you believe HE has before, which is what we were taught, that may very well be his action as he shakes HIS head at the deplorable mess we have made of our paradise. BUT, if that is the case, and we have been here before, then....can we not ask, WHY? WHY after time and time again have YOU CREATED such imperfect life that it is so wrong? Why have we failed? YOU created US, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN US??? WHERE ARE YOU?? Peace!!!!