My Trip To Disneyland (August 2013)

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

Explain in detail what constitutes a 'DeMolay' influence. The board of directors and executive committee are publically published, list the members of each that are exerting this 'DeMolay' influence.

You are again misrepresenting my standpoint. If Walt was a DeMolay, yet he is deceased now, why is it that Walt Disney studios still presents the masonic influences in their products, hence 'Toon Town'? I never inferred that any of their board of directors, etc, were of the Masonic tree.. Again misrepresentation of viewpoints and standing...You are a bit heavy on strawman tactics aren't you?

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
I never said all Masons are this way. I thoroughly understand that 99.9% of all Masons are generally good and decent human beings; denying that a .1 % exists, that don't share these benevolent intentions is a fallacy.

Answer the questions I posted. Stop deflecting. What are the rituals you think they learn in Masonry that allow them to control/influence others? Use all the knowledge you acquired while in lodge and educate us Masons on what really takes place.

Enter Bill Clinton and innumerous others.

Nice of you to switch this to Clinton from Saville (both of whom were not a Mason).

And don't give me that # about him being a DeMolay...That's like saying Hitler Youth's aren't Nazi's too..

Aww, is someone getting a little pissy? The DeMolay is not even remotely close to the Hitler Youth (which was not optional). And being that DeMolay and Masonry are optional you have plenty of people (Disney, Clinton) who opt not to progress because it does not appeal to them (mind control BS and all).

You need to explore some critical thinking skills.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
If Walt was a DeMolay, yet he is deceased now, why is it that Walt Disney studios still presents the masonic influences in their products, hence 'Toon Town'?

I must have missed where in the original post we tied the Moose and Elk to the Masons as this is where the play on words came from. Maybe you can show us again.

I never inferred that any of their board of directors, etc, were of the Masonic tree.. Again misrepresentation of viewpoints and standing...You are a bit heavy on strawman tactics aren't you?

Pardon me oh purveyor of cohenrent viewpoints. So what you are implying is that there are a bunch of loose cannons over there who designed Toontown with 'Masonic' sybolism (that is not Masonic) did not pitch this to any one in a supervisory role, got this major financial endeavor past the Board of Directors without their input and blessing and finally built. Yeah, that makes total sense. Why did I not see this too.....

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

Answer the questions I posted. Stop deflecting. What are the rituals you think they learn in Masonry that allow them to control/influence others? Use all the knowledge you acquired while in lodge and educate us Masons on what really takes place.

Analogies are useful A.M., let's not forget that fact.

The quotation by John Ruskin at the beginning of this chapter summarizes the lesson that Freemasonry would like to give to the world. It is often said that the purpose of Freemasonry is "to take a good man and help him to become a better man." It does so by offering a man who becomes a Mason opportunities to improve himself. If you are to profit from Freemasonry to the fullest extent, you must work at applying the lessons in your daily life. The lessons of Freemasonry are timeless, but we learn from them by doing . Nothing worthwhile has ever been achieved without effort.

By teaching a man what it takes to become a better person, you also teach him the opposite or inverse, how to be a worse person, by applying the inverse aspects of the lessons that Freemasonry teaches. Simply by understanding yourself, you can grow to understand others. The same can be said that learning how to control yourself, can teach you how to control others as well. Very simple..You want me to tell you how people can abuse the teachings of Freemasonry and it's rituals? By employing the exact opposite ideals that Freemasonry teaches..

Nice of you to switch this to Clinton from Saville (both of whom were not a Mason).

Founded by Frank S. Land, a Freemason, DeMolay is modeled after Freemasonry. With the sponsorship of a Masonic body, a DeMolay chapter often meets in a lodge room or, if not in a lodge room, in some other appropriate room within the same building. Although none of the youth groups are "masonic organizations" as such, DeMolay is considered to be part of the general "family" of Masonic and associated organizations, along with other youth groups such as Job's Daughters and Rainbow. As with Rainbow, a family connection to Masonry is not a prerequisite for membership into DeMolay.

Which once again leads me back to my statement that you misrepresented so well..

And don't give me that # about him being a DeMolay...That's like saying Hitler Youth's aren't Nazi's too..

Saying that DeMolay doesn't have or incorporate masonic ideals, essentially being a step below, is like saying that the children in Hitler Youth didn't exude the same qualities that the National Socialistic Party did...

Aww, is someone getting a little pissy? The DeMolay is not even remotely close to the Hitler Youth (which was not optional).

And never did I infer that they were as literally close as you represented my standpoint to be. It is an analogy, I thought you as an initiated could understand and appreciate such a useful tool. Or are you purposefully being obtuse?

You need to explore some critical thinking skills.

You should probably explore other methods for constructive and civilized debate, like maybe not using ad hominems...Just a suggestion...

See, I can do point-for-point replies as well...What a joy it must be, huh?

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

I must have missed where in the original post we tied the Moose and Elk to the Masons as this is where the play on words came from. Maybe you can show us again.

Uh, right here...

as this is where the play on words comes from.

The evidence of influence itself comes from the very same 'play on words' that you outlined, otherwise what is the point of said 'play'?

Are you really doing this on purpose? I get the impression that you willfully and purposefully present your remarks/replies in an obtuse manner, so as to imply that you didn't say what you really said..

reply to post by VeritasAequitas

Many young men are in DeMolay that don't go on to be Masons.

reply to post by VeritasAequitas

Joining the DeMolay isn't joining the Masons.

reply to post by VeritasAequitas

There's nothing exclusively Masonic I can see in the designs of Disneyland.

reply to post by VeritasAequitas

But who says that 0.1% is in charge? Or has any influence? Isn't it just as likely that someone from the 99.9% are in leadership positions.

DeMolay are not considered Masons. For one to be a Mason they would have to be initiated into a Lodge and received the 3-degrees of Craft Masonry.

reply to post by KSigMason

But who says that 0.1% is in charge? Or has any influence? Isn't it just as likely that someone from the 99.9% are in leadership positions.

Again, an inference that I never made nor did I insinuate...

Do they teach the advocation of strawman arguments in Freemasonry?

I said that they exist; not that they have positions of power or influence within Freemasonry.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

 

Considering Toon Town was built long after his death

Is highly irrelevant. The DeMolay or Masonic influence can not be denied, which begs the question of who else is running the show to include these same influences?

Even if he is dead, why do his works continue to show the same guiding influences?

So spoofing is now influencing? Me thinks if you stretch any further your going to break something.

reply to post by VeritasAequitas

Joining the DeMolay isn't joining the Masons.

Nor did I say that it was. Once again, a strawman argument.

What I did point out was that just as the National Socialistic Party influenced the ideals of the Hitler Youth, Freemasonry has influenced the DeMolay international. DeMolay which is even named after the last Grand Master Knight Templar. To try and dismiss the influences or beliefs of Freemasonry, on the mind of a DeMolay child, is indeed like saying that Hitler Youth's weren't Nazi's too..

Do I really have to spell everything out?

reply to post by MrSpad

So spoofing is now influencing?

I was talking about their influence on the spoof, not influence THROUGH spoofing...

Is it just me or do most of you habitually represent strawman arguments in order to draw assertions, rebuttals or conclusions? Me thinks some of you need reading apprehension and critical thinking skills.

reply to post by KSigMason

I said that they exist; not that they have positions of power or influence within Freemasonry.

The true power of Freemasonry is in the teachings, not your fabled positions of power. Degrees do not represent power. Knowledge and applications of the teachings are. This 'high-level Mason' nonsense is an erroneous assertion at best.

VeritasAequitas, I am surprised at your posts in this thread. You're usually so much more acute! You claim to have found something, then were told it wasn't very significant by modern Freemasons, then you accused them of either lying or being ignorant (not sure which yet - either way, very poor approach given they have the experience and you don't) because they didn't give you the answer you were looking for.

Long story short, you're not going to be happy until they tell you that you're right. Unfortunately, they would be lying to tell you that. You asked a question, you got your answer. You should either accept it or move on instead of badgering the members who were kind enough to humor your curiosity.

hmmm Mickey Mouse eh?

"that three-fingered son-of-a-bitch who has no soul, for Christ's sake."
-Charles Bukowski.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by network dude

 

Bill Clinton was too. Did you see anything masonic in his actions?

Problem with this is, that not all masons or those who join the craft do it for the right intentions...Some just join to accumulate a certain set of knowledge that allows them to not only control the aspects of their lives that they want, but the lives of others too.

Yea, Bill got tired of having his lunch money stolen, so he joined the Demolay and soon he was in charge of the lunch line. He sure showed those punks.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

hen you accused them of either lying or being ignorant (not sure which yet - either way, very poor approach given they have the experience and you don't) because they didn't give you the answer you were looking for.

I am not sure where I accused them of either. However, I have properly called them out in regards to their repeated misrepresentation of my standpoints, or in more particular, their strawman arguments.

I should probably outline a thread at some point in which I detail my views regarding Freemasonry. Suffice it to say that I follow ancient Freemasonry a great deal more than it's, in my opinion, watered down modern component.

reply to post by network dude


While a facetious comment I'm sure, you have nothing to suggest this wasn't the case either... Some people, in my opinion, develop a bit of a superiority complex from thinking that being initiated makes them 'higher' than the profane..

Do be quite honest, the condescending manner in which you (Masons) deal with most of the posts you find trivial on this website, certainly don't help your case. Hell, if I didn't know better, I'd probably still be thinking you guys are devil worshipers like those other half-wits, who bang on about those insane theories. With attitudes like that, it's no wonder the kinds of ideas they get.

However, I can not rule out the possibility and likelihood that there are those who join Freemasonry for their own nefarious purposes, like I don't know; the very ill gain that you seek to prevent, when they fill out their petition saying not to?

Since you guys love analogies so much, allow me to make another one. Saying some people don't join Freemasonry for nefarious purposes, is like saying some people don't join the police force to become a bully with a badge; it is inaccurate, your cosmic laws say the same thing, and you know it.

As a whole though, no, I do not blanket stereotype Freemasons on the actions of so relatively few members. Therein lies the difference between most of these assertions being leveled.

reply to post by r666evolution


M-ic key Mouse, 11 letters first letter each word beginning with M = 13
13 +11 =24

Walt Disney 10 letters, 10 + 24 = 34

I got nothin ? :No wait, that should have been 13x2 = 26 + 11 + 10 = 38

38 = 3 + 8 = 11 got it.

And I'm not even very good with math.

reply to post by VeritasAequitas


Dude, I was trying to lighten up the room. Next time you buy underware, don't be afraid to go up a size.

Have a super day.

reply to post by network dude


Well then, I sincerely apologize network. I got the impression you were attempting to be 'cute' in a facetious way. Once again, you have my apologies.

reply to post by VeritasAequitas

I am not sure where I accused them of either. However, I have properly called them out in regards to their repeated misrepresentation of my standpoints, or in more particular, their strawman arguments.

Let's take a look:

Augustus: "It is a play on words: The Benevolent Order of Elks and the Royal Order of Moose. "

You: "And the fact that he was a DeMolay has no bearing on these facts, huh?"

Augustus: "Considering Toon Town was built long after his death I would feel fairly safe in saying, 'NO'. That is unless you think good ol' Walt is still running the show from his ice chest."

You: "highly irrelevant. The DeMolay or Masonic influence can not be denied, which begs the question of who else is running the show to include these same influences? Even if he is dead, why do his works continue to show the same guiding influences?"

Augustus: "Explain in detail what constitutes a 'DeMolay' influence. The board of directors and executive committee are publically published, list the members of each that are exerting this 'DeMolay' influence."

You: "You are again misrepresenting my standpoint. If Walt was a DeMolay, yet he is deceased now, why is it that Walt Disney studios still presents the masonic influences in their products, hence 'Toon Town'? I never inferred that any of their board of directors, etc, were of the Masonic tree.. Again misrepresentation of viewpoints and standing...You are a bit heavy on strawman tactics aren't you?"

At this point, you've become less than helpful in your own investigation, Veritas. He asked you a legitimate question and you deflected, as he points out here, in a post on page 2 of the thread:

Augustus: "Answer the questions I posted. Stop deflecting. What are the rituals you think they learn in Masonry that allow them to control/influence others? Use all the knowledge you acquired while in lodge and educate us Masons on what really takes place. "

And then here's your response:

You: "By teaching a man what it takes to become a better person, you also teach him the opposite or inverse, how to be a worse person, by applying the inverse aspects of the lessons that Freemasonry teaches. Simply by understanding yourself, you can grow to understand others. The same can be said that learning how to control yourself, can teach you how to control others as well. Very simple..You want me to tell you how people can abuse the teachings of Freemasonry and it's rituals? By employing the exact opposite ideals that Freemasonry teaches.. "

Where did you get this knowledge, by the way? Did you go to Freemason Academy? See, even for all of your accusations about strawmen and whatnot, you yourself have failed to build a solid case on which to base these observations and from which to draw the significance by which these observations would take on a depth commonly associated with conspiracies. That's what we're getting at here, and what you are evidently failing to understand.

Your case is very weak. Considering what we know about Walt Disney, it would be just like him to make a joke out of something people take so seriously. It's what made him famous. And you aren't doing a good job of proving otherwise. I'm sorry, but that's the truth.